Myth World Cup CHAMPIONS™

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 07 Aug 2013, 20:30

NewMutator wrote:Might that have something to do with the seemingly arbitrary cut off point of 2004?

Absolutely not, I cut it off at 8 teams because I was originally going to make a bracket of the mwc champions and have people vote on who they think would win, but since there is not 16 mwc champions to make an even bracket, 8 was the best choice.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 07 Aug 2013, 20:36

Right, so Civil order didn't play particularly well given the level of play today, but that's kind of a moot point. There's a lot of other reasons why someone might want to pick them. They were the first champions on this game, when it was at its most popular, and therefore set the bar that all other championship teams would follow. Scoring rules changed over time, but that's not really news. Game rules evolve in many sports and the metagames change as a result, but that doesn't mean the past was "doing it wrong" -- after all, you're where you are because the past was obviously doing something right.

Plus it's a subjective question. I don't see how you can arrive at an "objective" answer. People aren't necessarily basing their answers on the team that played best, there's a whole host of subjective considerations that color their responses.

since there is not 16 mwc champions to make an even bracket, 8 was the best choice

See that makes sense. That's the kind of info I wish I had at the start of the thread.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 07 Aug 2013, 20:46

wwo wrote:I think it just makes it easier to answer. It's in the same area as comparing the best NFL franchises: 60's Packers? 70's Steelers? 80's 49ers? 90's Cowboys? 00's Patriots? They all dominated their eras, but if you break them down and nitpick you can make their flaws overstated as well. It's also similar to any internet poll about any sports' Best Players Ever; current or recent players are always going to be overhyped because it's an instinctive bias.

Easy 49ers of the 90's

True, but I just honestly believe the teams from 2003 forward are far superior to to anything before that and not because they are modern or over hyped, just because they are CLEARY better when you watch them[not only tactically because I realize that took time to evolve, but just the clicks they make with the units they are focusing on].

The difference between sports and myth is the different sports had already been around for a very long time and the game was already developed in different techniques of how to approach the games. Myth 2? Not so much it was very new in 1999-2001. I remember when I played on bungie that I don't remember people ever getting puss.

RANT: Ironically when it comes to sports I think that whole argument of "the newer athlete is superior" is terrible [minus LeBron James]. There is footage of Bill Russell doing a layup where he takes off from the free throw line. How many people do that in a game now? 0. Football is much harder to judge physically speaking, but technically speaking quarterbacks were just as technically sound and receivers ran routes just as good or if not better then than they do now.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 Aug 2013, 21:22

Well in all due respect to BME, the cut off point should be 03 and BIA should be available to be included. They took out Np, and without their main captain for the finals (hitlow), and were capped none other than the caterpillar phalanx master himself, raziel. they also took out np the first year np had acquired tirri for MWC (although he might have played team tournaments with them before.

bia:
limp
hitlow
raziel
phod (m.bizon)
naelot
sb
malkavian
wight slayer
hyperion
aginor
serval
voodoo
jeffdameek
samstone
ashen
bloo

In a very close final match up (87-87), team BIA got the honor of defeating the Northern Paladins and become the MWC 2003 Champions. The Northern Paladins who were not defeated in any team tournament for the last 2-3 years had to leave their champions spot and let BIAUIHYAC to now be recognized as the best Myth II team players to walk the earth this year. Congratulations to BIA and their players.

Do i really need to bold the part where Np was not defeated in any team tournament for the last 2-3 years?

BIA might just be one of the greatest!

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 Aug 2013, 21:26

also Np in 01 against arguably the greatest Rabble Squad of it's time (although sunstyle never got to play a game) is also stupidly unincluded.
Only other better rabble squad of its time to make it to finals would be Armageddon. And armageddon won.

"can't make an 8 team bracket" lahl so you throw out 4 teams. hell you might as well included tcox and bia2 05 to have a 14 team bracket, add in a bye week for someone even though that name will be replaced by whatever team wins this year, and finally the TFL MWC champs RF. There's your 16 go fill out a bracket sheet after august 11th.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 Aug 2013, 21:42

Asmodian wrote:
NewMutator wrote:
par73 wrote:the answer is civil order
http://www.macobserver.com/mwc99/dynami ... op/7/7T01/
first repeat team ever
both finals beating opponents in sudden death,
first effective use of 'name changing' to win a championship (2000)
http://www.mythgaming.net/mwc2000/news/

played in a total of 25 mwc finals games BEFORE bungie.net closed.

mwc finals record of 14 wins, 3 ties, and 8 losses.
not to mention being down a game in sudden death to come back to win two games to become champions. Two years in a row
can't touch that.
Kind of surprised there's no Civil poll option tbh.

For anyone arguing about how great civil is, my mind has actually completely changed on them.

Here is the reality,

Summary
Should they have won MWC 1999? Maybe, maybe not. The reality of the situation is the scoring was beyond terrible and I would be incredibly frustrated to compete In this tournament as a competitor, not knowing at the end of the day if I was truly the best team in the tournament based on results like the ones below.

http://forum.gateofstorms.net/posting.p ... =post&f=21
Round 4: Civil ties BMF 2-1-2, Civil receives a defeat due to a horrible scoring system (I was tempted to leave this information out but decided to be fair in my analysis)

Round 6: Civil ties Gtm 1-1-1, but are rewarded a win due to a horrible scoring system

Summary
Should they have won MWC 2000? Absolutely not. They should have been eliminated in the quarter finals...

http://www.mythgaming.net/mwc2000/brackets/top.shtml
Round 3: Civil played TWF and lost in games 1-1-3, but won (LOL) 47-45 due to the horrible scoring system

Round 5: Civil loses to Spin in games 2-3 and is sent to the bottom bracket [Should have been eliminated at this point]

Civil for sure had an impact on myth 2 and helped evolve the game into what it has become today, but to say they are the best team ever [even historically speaking] after seeing such absurd results and actually watching films is extremely false to me. [these laughable results in their mwc "wins" makes me wonder how legit some of their other tournament wins were]

I know people are going to say, "but if the scoring system was different they would have played differently and blah,blah,blah..." or some other argument but I'm not going to argue anymore about this topic because there is no end result. You can decide for yourself based on what I posted and actually watching their films and judge for yourself.

Edit:

PS: By all means go ahead an try to shout cast any of civil's close MWC match victories newmutator, but I warn you that you will not be able to get through that shoutcast before you throw your computer against the wall.

Just wanted to note, while you bitch about how Civil "rode the scoring system to the finals", they uhh, got completely fucked over by the scoring system and the rules in MWC98 (TFL) semi-finals. The game was raisin barn captures,
In the Raisin Barn (Team) Captures games, they used their spider
queens to push many of the balls high up on the edge of the map,
which meant that foot troops [non-spider units] could not contest
the balls.
I felt then (and still feel now) that this strategy renders the
game a complete waste of time, and makes any non-spider-queen units
effectively useless. If I had ever thought of this strategy before
the match, I would have immediately created a rule outlawing it, to
enable the game to be played as I had intended. However, I didn't.
At the time that the match was played, the Dwarves' strategy was
completely true to the letter of the tournament rules. - Butcher

http://members.tripod.com/totalcodex_tc ... ology.html

Here are a few quotes from CP players who beat civil
Umbra: "CP defeated civil without cheating as they understood the
rules, enough said."
MrWuf: ""WE DEFEATED CIVIL WITHOUT CHEATING". You indirectly accused
us of cheating. Quit it...your hurting my feelings. "
Dminor: "I don't think anyone here is saying that you guys cheated."
MrWuf: "Ya see...a funny thing happened after I wrote this...someone
ELSE read it. What's even funnier was that person had different
ideas and points of view than I did. Can you believe it!!! They
even had Mauve color glasses on instead of Rose colored ones!!

here is the actual match itself:
http://members.tripod.com/totalcodex_tc ... civil.html

While the beginning of the text for game one says "both teams opt for max melee and spiders", civil didn't get any. CP pushed shit out of bounds. You might recollect that GTM pushes the balls out of bounds in MWC99 and that game also becomes null do to strategy outweighing and outsmarting the rules ! In game two, CP pushes the balls out of bounds again.
Both of these games become null.

Butcher asked for a replay, civil asked for a replay
CP dwarves told em both, tough luck.
Despite the fact civil won both games by % remaining, CP Dwarves strategy was simply more technical in civil, who was a "take you head on and into the ground" type of team. CP won games 3 and 4, Civil won game 5. Perhaps if those games were replayed, civil would have had a threepeat starting right after Michael Jordan got his second in the NBA.

So while you're trying to make some point that civil won due to scoring/rules systems that apparently weren't the best, they also got FUCKED over by the system themselves before and USED the system to their advantage in the future to win the next two MWCs. You're completely downplaying the fact that your point of "why they won in 99 and 00" was directly influenced in why they lost in 1998. I just thought I'd let you know.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 Aug 2013, 21:44

Oh also to kill any remaining doubt that Civil Order was the best myth 2 team tournament team and mwc champions ever, at least 4 of them went on to work for bungie and made plenty of money of the Halo Series blowing the fuck up with XBOX.

idiot, now you name players from MWC teams that got invited to work for the company that designed the game that they became destined champions to be in.

Honkey · Post by **Honkey** » 07 Aug 2013, 21:50

Paris~ no bias at all.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 07 Aug 2013, 21:59

par73 wrote:Oh also to kill any remaining doubt that Civil Order was the best myth 2 team tournament team and mwc champions ever, at least 4 of them went on to work for bungie and made plenty of money of the Halo Series blowing the fuck up with XBOX.

idiot, now you name players from MWC teams that got invited to work for the company that designed the game that they became destined champions to be in.

Went on to work for Bungie? That must mean they are the best ever. As we know every BNA from Bungie was incredible at myth2, oh wait...

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 Aug 2013, 22:01

Not every BNA worked at or for bungie.

Lizard King · Post by **Lizard King** » 07 Aug 2013, 22:47

It's funny when people who were obviously not around for myth's prime try and talk like they know something about this game's history.

So the main point here is that if you keep playing myth for years on end you'll get better than people who have quit the game and perhaps eventually surpass these long dead mythers?

Compelling argument.

Rikkµ · Post by **Rikkµ** » 07 Aug 2013, 22:49

I do find all this talk interesting.
In 99,2k and mb 2001 etc , I played many,many warmup matches with SF and Civil and BMF and TWF ,Ancrik , E.I Aleph Naught ,BIC etc and if you viewed those matches you might have a different opinion of the top tier teams of the day.
I am going to search for such films on various discs and old harddrives and post them when I have time so you can evaluate them for yourselves. I have perhaps 30k saved games, so it could take a while, but it would be something good to do perhaps for people to see and make an informed opinion.Many games were far far better than the actual MWC matches themselves.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 07 Aug 2013, 22:54

Can anyone name a tournament where the top 4 teams were as good as 2008?

Pogue · Post by **Pogue** » 08 Aug 2013, 00:04

Lizard King wrote:It's funny when people who were obviously not around for myth's prime try and talk like they know something about this game's history.

So the main point here is that if you keep playing myth for years on end you'll get better than people who have quit the game and perhaps eventually surpass these long dead mythers?

Compelling argument.

Thanks for summing up the thread so I don't have to back and read it all bro.

Honkey · Post by **Honkey** » 08 Aug 2013, 01:13

The failure of kils logic is that all the players chiming in played in both eras. As a matter of fact, other than myrk, flat, limp and WWO (i believe) i was one of the few that was on competitive teams when myth mattered and on competitive teams when myth didnt matter. You really gotta look at it as eras. and no there is no way of telling who would have been the best had the original teams kept playing. The reason?

What many fail to recognize in this stupid argument is that after 2001, many raidwhores, and other non reg players started switching over to reg. There was quite an influx of ranked players that joined the competitive scene after the days of civil similar to what we saw with the EW type ww2 players that switched to reg. The player base shifted to players with a lot more micro abiluity, and as time progressed many bugs were also starting to work out. You also gotta keep in mind 56k was gone, and many of the younger players who were 11-12 1 hit their teen years and got much smarter and much better.

I would say the game evolved, and the players that dominated in the early years did not continue to play, therefore we have nothing to base their progression off of. The dynamics of the game changed tremendously, the strategies got better, micro got WAY better, and the shift to tactical units as opposed to "dedicated pussers" etc changed the game tremendously.

what truly proves my point is.... RENWOOD WON A FUCKING MWC.

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 08 Aug 2013, 02:36

I find the "micro got better" argument to be absolute horseshit.
Top players had awesome micro back when TFL first came out.
Really anyone who thinks there was noone who had great keyboard and mouse control back then has their head up their ass.
The only thing that got better was 3rd party map strategies, simply because what did and didn't work became more or less common knowledge as maps got played more.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 08 Aug 2013, 03:05

Lizard King wrote: So the main point here is that if you keep playing myth for years on end you'll get better than people who have quit the game and perhaps eventually surpass these long dead mythers?

So are you saying that on that point you actually agree? Is anyone actually arguing that "if those players had kept playing they would suck compared to modern players"? I don't think so...

Ultimately it's a worthless argument/discussion, despite the fun of digging up old films. The only thing that matters is who is the best at a given point. Any time warping speculation is ultimately as pointless as speculating on how good CoD or Starcraft players would be at Myth.

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 08 Aug 2013, 03:05

did that same tfl micro make its way into early m2 though? I feel like tfl was super micro based, since it was melle intensive - but I don't really know if early m2 was micro-intensive. I'd say theres a correlation between when 1v1s started becoming popular and micro-intensive players. Can any1 say when 1v1s started happening more? Or were they always a part of m2 culture. My guess is around '03, when cho was 1v1ing ppl.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 08 Aug 2013, 04:00

Zak wrote:Can anyone name a tournament where the top 4 teams were as good as 2008?

as what mwc08?

lets see here
mwc07 (anal bleachers and ckcss had loaded rosters just like tcox and NC (12 tasks form)
mwc04, top teams, despite placement : BME Np NC (guru form) BIA (ICBM form), tcox (GG form)
oh yeah mwc06, top teams, np, bme, tcox, BIA "bia3", NC (elephriends form[this is here for charity i would not say they were top 4!)

oh and what did the bullz (or was it Sp) play? np, happyface, and uhh who was it? oh yeah NC (no idea who they were, form) 11' or 12'?? or did i just confuse both years?

almost all of these teams have interchanable players

i imagine mwc03 with BIA Np Tcox and GTM, not to mention NC (Sm form), plus LoA and OA (later known as BME)

one could say that as time went on good players saturated to less teams (also thereby destroying possibilities for other teams).

for example

in mwc07 you had NP/TCOX and 12 tasks, both teams had 14 players a piece.

This was (pretty much why roster limits changed for mwc08 [note a]) the potential for 4 great starting lineups (lets pretend head was active!),
plus the chance for other players to play on the team and interchange with non-starters.

here are some random versions of possible teams:
cave
ramierz
paris
ska
shai
nine
chickenwire

qwerty
zer
grim
orlandotheaxe
fire
xel
dantski

spooky
rabican
weltall
cu
adren
jushius
limp

storm
tirri
arz
lude
head
apollo
atombomb

any of those rosters, plus 3-4 other players on lower placing teams, would have given any team a run for their money, Whether ABS or CKCCS (3rd and 4th place) pulled their best 7 or not.
myth could have been much more competitive long ago but i think the game missed it's final chance around this time.

[note a] in 2008, armageddon had the max roster of 12, but one player 'nessie' didn't even exist. this was the first and only time a player who didn't actually exist was on a team who won a mwc. browning akira liger gekko chickenwire migraine magne enigman paris KROK Zer [note b] and nessie (12 players) [note c]

[note b] people can try to say that armageddon wasn't a 'power house team', but it was totally BC oriented and used BME strategies adapted to CW style of play. the big 3 (Zer, Krok, CW) were at the top of their play at the time. You really couldn't fuck with any of them and I definately remember, while feeling underdogish, feeling great to have those kinds of players ready to do damage. KROK and ZER were probably the best trowers in 08 for sure, CW could fuck everyone up on any map. 1v1ing them often really got me into shape too. having a support cast of myself, magne [BME fame, could flex on anyone, tear ass on float, only person who gave chohan a run for his money in chohan's 1v1 tournament] and liger [known for 1v1 specialty, impressing returning BME players in 05, getting shafted by raz and the ckcss gang in mwc2k7 by roster addition deadlines, and of course, blindsided] and gekko? our front 7 were spectacular, sub out any of those players for mig of np, or akira/enigman/browning (who were on ghetto cakes in mwc04with krok, another team that would be considered "top tier" by 13 standards). yeah it was fucken beastly, it was a roller coaster ride.

[note c] actually now i remember we also had rocketdive on our roster and there was probably someone else im missing too.

in years of 01 and before you had people [on your MWC team] that you enjoyed playing myth with, whether on their account or a dummy account. dummy account policies in tournaments were a lot less stricter [or at least, it was more difficult to get caught], and players were more likely to get in trouble for something even stupider (like when naelot, playing for civil (SF form) dummied (not even in a tournament game) as whoever the fuck hwed, he who eats dung, played for, learned all their strategies, got banned from MWC, and rejoined as some other player [which was extra effective coz SF all shared accounts and shit like that under aliases [Setting the tone for NC' name changing shenaningans and Bullz/Sp different names and incognito logins]. Once it turned to 03 team tournaments were quite different IMO, just in general tone of what a team tournament was.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 08 Aug 2013, 05:34

Too drunk/on holidays to doy researxh... but didnt armageddon get rolled by NC ealier on in the tourney in 08? Just saying... hardly matters who won in most tourneys... top 3 or 4 teams have almost always been pretty close in comparison.e
Also in reference to player
evolution... Shaister was a top TFL player since the beginning.. and still a top player in recent years... do you really think any civil members could/would have progressed beyond what is now the top tier. I doubt it! The only way the upper tier could be better is if koreans plqyed this game 24/7 for the last sevrral yeers. P..s. fuck you

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 08 Aug 2013, 05:41

Oh.. and remember when Liger was considered "good"? YEP. Mythers have evolved... think want u want, but that pretty much sums it up.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 08 Aug 2013, 06:02

adrenaline wrote:Too drunk/on holidays to doy researxh... but didnt armageddon get rolled by NC ealier on in the tourney in 08? Just saying... hardly matters who won in most tourneys... top 3 or 4 teams have almost always been pretty close in comparison.e
Also in reference to player
evolution... Shaister was a top TFL player since the beginning.. and still a top player in recent years... do you really think any civil members could/would have progressed beyond what is now the top tier. I doubt it! The only way the upper tier could be better is if koreans plqyed this game 24/7 for the last sevrral yeers. P..s. fuck you

Completely agree about the player evolution.

Also people seem to forget that not all civil disappeared after mwc 2000 and those that did remain were good players but not top notch anymore.

Odin,Phod,Stinger,Naelot (?)

Out of these players the only one who could even be considered a top tier player anymore was Naelot in 20004-2005ish

tirri · Post by **tirri** » 08 Aug 2013, 06:30

par73 wrote:Well in all due respect to BME, the cut off point should be 03 and BIA should be available to be included. They took out Np, and without their main captain for the finals (hitlow), and were capped none other than the caterpillar phalanx master himself, raziel. they also took out np the first year np had acquired tirri for MWC (although he might have played team tournaments with them before.

In a very close final match up (87-87), team BIA got the honor of defeating the Northern Paladins and become the MWC 2003 Champions. The Northern Paladins who were not defeated in any team tournament for the last 2-3 years had to leave their champions spot and let BIAUIHYAC to now be recognized as the best Myth II team players to walk the earth this year. Congratulations to BIA and their players.

Do i really need to bold the part where Np was not defeated in any team tournament for the last 2-3 years?

BIA might just be one of the greatest!

i think 2003 was the year when during the start of DE we lost a large majority of players to the army. i dont remember which ones, maybe me, dante, cw, migraine, xel and rabican? anyway quite a lot of players from the starting line-up. this meant that we got about 2 days off every 2 weeks. i dont think most wanted to spend those 2 days playing myth at all and even if they did, the preparation was obviously lacking pretty badly. even then bia managed to only beat us first 47-45 and then 87-87. too bad i cant check who was present during those matches

i think its safe to say that nps dominance was only stopped by the mass exodus to the army, something the likes of which has never happened to any other top team during myths history

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 08 Aug 2013, 07:05

There you go Tirri, Mwc03 finals.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 08 Aug 2013, 12:16

erm while liger was considered good when it came to 1v1 play he really lacked "court vision" or whatever you want to call it, especially in team play. I remember we added magne to armageddon for the firepower and for extra eyes to watch liger (him and cw were the only people he listened to).

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 08 Aug 2013, 12:36

arden wrote:but didnt armageddon get rolled by NC ealier on in the tourney in 08?

Err..no? They won on points in QR then beat us 4-1 in top bracket. The only time we beat them was in grand finals to force the SD.

Honkey · Post by **Honkey** » 08 Aug 2013, 12:38

Let me rephrase myrk. I am speaking of Microing different unit types, not things like micro melle, archering etc (which got much easier with new patches) The most effective unit groupings dramatically changed how the game dynamics worked when you arent wasting half the puss with a dedicated pusser with 8 puss, and players are allowed a lot more autonomy in map movement and reaching objectives. Maybe the word I am looking for is Meta, not micro.

Captain · Post by **Captain** » 08 Aug 2013, 12:53

How everyone should feel about arguing about this.

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 08 Aug 2013, 15:11

odin returned to play in like 04-06 stretch, he was in tiger's order Angels... lol. He was like a 3 baller when he came back - played like a year. I feel like he used to overwhelm ppl by being really aggressive back in the day, but same shit didn't fly.

http://www.mythgaming.net/mwc2006/player.php?id=376

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 08 Aug 2013, 15:24

Only newbies did stuff like giving 8 pus to 1 guy.

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 08 Aug 2013, 15:27

East Wind tmnt wrote:odin returned to play in like 04-06 stretch, he was in tiger's order Angels... lol. He was like a 3 baller when he came back - played like a year. I feel like he used to overwhelm ppl by being really aggressive back in the day, but same shit didn't fly.

http://www.mythgaming.net/mwc2006/player.php?id=376

Odin got bad pretty fast actually. He was Team Angry Face's worst player, and NP admitted they looked for him in games since he was the weak link. To be fair, his internet got to be pretty bad so who knows how much of it was skill.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 08 Aug 2013, 16:05

par73 wrote:
Zak wrote:Can anyone name a tournament where the top 4 teams were as good as 2008?
as what mwc08?

lets see here
mwc07 (anal bleachers and ckcss had loaded rosters just like tcox and NC (12 tasks form)
mwc04, top teams, despite placement : BME Np NC (guru form) BIA (ICBM form), tcox (GG form)
oh yeah mwc06, top teams, np, bme, tcox, BIA "bia3", NC (elephriends form[this is here for charity i would not say they were top 4!)

oh and what did the bullz (or was it Sp) play? np, happyface, and uhh who was it? oh yeah NC (no idea who they were, form) 11' or 12'?? or did i just confuse both years?

almost all of these teams have interchanable players

i imagine mwc03 with BIA Np Tcox and GTM, not to mention NC (Sm form), plus LoA and OA (later known as BME)

MWC2k12: SP and My Team were neck and neck, trading wins. NC kept it close but didn't beat any top competition. TSS got 4th and couldn't have beat any of those top 3.

MWC2k11: Bullz was clearly the best. NC and NP were very closely matched, although both teams had weaker rosters than in previous years. Now if Happy Face or MoC could have beat a top team, I would say this was the most competitive MWC, but MoC beat Happy Face then lost to all other top competition. Happy face and MoC barely beat team ratking!

Mwc2k10: One of the best NC formations, and a solid rabble contender in the form of TBC. Tcox and FATC got 3rd/4th, not sure who got which but it doesn't matter, they were both awful. FATC had a close match with NC, but the 2 games they won most of FATC was like "how the fuck did that happen?". That weak manifestation of tcox got swept by TBC. Weak top 4!

MWC09: So NC was fantastic, EG/tcox were pretty good but not great. Pretty sure FUKLOL got 4th place right? That team sucked.

MWC08: This is the only year I can think of where the top 4 teams traded matches at one point or another. NC narrowly loses to npcox in mwc07, then beats np in the finals of TWS, picks up players like karma and ghengis, and is predicted to win MWC08. NPcox reforms (albeit without gekko/cw this time), and is favored as a finalist at the very least, since they still have arze/tirri/rabican/xel/grim, and the core tcox guys were still solid at this time. BIA that year was probably its strongest since 2005, GKG was active, and raziel was determined to prove he didn't have the 4th place curse (His team still got 4th but thats a testament to how good the other 3 were). Armageddon had kirk in his prime, and some of the best players from np/bme/abs, not only that but they were able to BC teams that were really good at playing the gametype. As far as 5th place teams go, I feel MoC that year could have beat the 5th place team in almost all of these other tournaments!

MWC07: BIA got rolled by every top team they faced and almost lost to WTC. ABS upset NC, but only had one convincing win in their match with npcox, and considering how disorganized they were I would almost call it a fluke that they beat NC at all. I would say there were 3 top teams that year, not 4.

MWC06: Definitely competitive amongst the top 4, I'll give you that. I think if tcox hadn't been a dark horse team, upsetting BME and BIA, we would have seen another BIA vs NP finals, and the other 2 teams would have looked sub par. However BME was a shadow of itself, with half the roster it had in 2004 and coming off a mediocre 2005 performance, and no wins over other top teams. BIA had terrible in-fighting and while they had close games they didn't have any wins over top teams in that tournament. Tcox did great as a dark horse team but that roster wasn't that great, there victory over BME/BIA was more a testament to how weak those teams were.

MWC04: GG lost to NFD, ICBM lost to agents, guru really wasn't a good enough team to deserve 3rd place (they were more like the elephriends). That tournament really only had 2 top teams in my opinion.

MWC03: Don't know too much about how the matches went in this tournament, but I think NP and BIA were pretty dominant. Judging from what tirri said and the fact it didn't go to SD, I'm guessing NP was in the bottom bracket from losing to a team, so they weren't at their best. Maybe the 3rd and 4th place teams were on the same level as NP/BIA, I don't know! My guess is they weren't, though. Edit: SM got 3rd, but they're in the same boat as guru/elephriends. They never could have beat BIA/NP that year.

So obviously there were years where the top 3 were better than 2008. However I asked if there was a year where the top 4 was more competitive, and I don't think there was. I asked that because I felt like that makes for a more competitive MWC. Obviously if you change the criteria for what makes a MWC team great then you'll come to different conclusions. For example if you ask what MWC had the most competitive finals, or the most competitive top 3 teams, or top 5 teams, or top 8 teams, you'll pick different MWC teams.

My picks:

Best MWC finals: 2007 had the best finals in my opinion. Both teams were very stacked, played phenomenally, and the games prior to sudden death were very close. Overall game wins/losses in that match are actually 4-4!

Best MWC team EVER: Armageddon, runner up: Bullz. I think if both teams had their best players show up and benched their shitty players, Armageddon would win. Not sure if kirk was better in 2008 or 2011 though.

Best teams to stay in title contention: Tcox had a great run from 2005-2010, getting 1st through 3rd all those years. NP also did a great job in 2001-2004, 2007, and spirit award for 2011.

Best team to never win MWC: Grim's Goblins Happy Face, a team that was formed in 2009 (EG), 2011(happyface), and 2012(MyTeam). They had a great roster, possessing the ability to play the gametype or BC their opponents. However they had different reasons for never being able to pull off a win. In 2009, TBC/NC were just too good. In 2011, they had attendance issues and got eliminated early. In 2012 they made it to the finals but let ducky captain them to a disappointing loss. I feel like they could have beat other contenders for this award such as ABS(which I also consider Angry Face/HoA/MoC), GTM, BMF, etc.

Worst team to win a MWC: Rabble Forces. Their finals opponent was using subs (including a drunk wwo), and only had half a team due to getting banned from MWC for abusing some ball rule?

Most overrated MWC champion teams: Despite having their core players in just about every MWC finals since 2001, NP only actually won 2 MWCs. Despite beating NP (something many teams can now claim), BME was very lackluster in future tournaments and actually has a less successful resume that BIA (a team ridiculed for underperforming). They won the most lopsided MWC finals every and had one of the best rosters, but Bullz was really a case of weak competition, and having the perfect rush/camp style to beat NC at a time where they were an artillery based team.

rawr · Post by **rawr** » 08 Aug 2013, 16:09

Blow this forum post up already .... Make a new one geez Louise lol

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 08 Aug 2013, 16:47

GG lost to NFD...

You act like losing to NFDF is some horrible loss, it isn't. There is a reason that they placed #4(2004) and #5(2006) in the two best post bungie Myth World Cups.

NFDF had some of the most underrated players of all time in: Delpth,Duan,Gastank,Muse and CRC (who eventually got some respect). With those 5 all you need is 2 competent role players.

Delpth and Duan were both nasty BC players. Have you played with Duan recently? He is still one of the best BCers on myth 2 despite being super inactive.

Cutard · Post by **Cutard** » 08 Aug 2013, 17:04

CRC was a fringe 4 ball player, certainly lag didn't help his cause but he was never overly impressive. NFDF was a good team but beating GG was a big upset which grim is still embarrassed about. Earlier GG narrowly beat guru (ask nine about that) then guru easily swept NFDF but couldn't challenge the top two teams. Ele was easily worse than guru.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 08 Aug 2013, 17:38

Losing to an all japanese team automatically takes you out of finals contender discussion. We can forgive NP for losing to SL in 2006 because they were 4v7 and came back to win MWC.

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 08 Aug 2013, 17:40

Guru and ele were no where close... guru had an active head, al capone etc. Ele was more of a fun team.

Also NFd was the strongest it's ever been in 04

Cutard · Post by **Cutard** » 08 Aug 2013, 17:44

Head and al capone were good players, but they weren't exactly good players in tournaments at all. Head very likely didn't give a shit and from what I remember of Al he was a retard. Still, they're both better than poohbear and pele!

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 08 Aug 2013, 17:51

East Wind tmnt wrote:Guru and ele were no where close... guru had an active head, al capone etc. Ele was more of a fun team.

Also NFd was the strongest it's ever been in 04

Throw ele into mwc04, with the same schedule, and I bet they beat NFD as well.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 08 Aug 2013, 17:53

NFDF beating GG was an upset, I'm just saying NFDF wasn't a bad team. They were very good and unconventional in several of their strategies.

Cutard · Post by **Cutard** » 08 Aug 2013, 18:10

I think we can all agree that the 2013 Blackhawks are the best team in recent memory. They were on pace for the regular season points record in nhl history, they were #1 and #2 statistically in defense and offense, they had the best start to a season in nhl history, and they had to beat 3 of the last 5 stanley cup champions (including the two most recent) in order to win it all. Tirri, comment?

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 08 Aug 2013, 18:16

Now if Happy Face or MoC could have beat a top team

Happiface beat NP in QR 4-1.

Best team to never win MWC: Grim's Goblins Happy Face,

Ok the 2012 team was stronger (although we did let Dante play in finals!) but I dunno if it was stronger than the 07 NC team. I'm picking those 2 out since I was on them and can compare them much better than a team I wasn't on. The 07 team had great depth and pretty much everyone could be relied on to do a good job, whereas the 2012 team was a little more varied in skill and had some obvious 3 ballers on it.

If I was going to rate the best team since 2003 I'd immediately discard the teams that had to go to SD except NP who had 1 week of attendance issues (so that's 2007 TCox, 2008 Armageddon, 2009 NC, don't remember 2010 and 2012 SP. That leaves BIA who tied in points and had a long forum thread about CTF scoring so they're out, BME who honestly wiped the floor with all the serious contenders in 2004 (losing games to AGE and Syn is fine since they weren't that strong), 2006 NP who convincingly won the finals and knocked out BME with ease however came extremely close to losing to BIA, 2010 NC who were kinda on their own at the top of that tourney and played a TCox team that wasn't particularly strong, and 2011 Bullz who like BME in 2004 steamrolled virtually everyone. BME and Bullz were both very strong teams so I'd say its a tie.

Cutard · Post by **Cutard** » 08 Aug 2013, 18:34

I'd rather be on a caring Np team than BME. Tony was a solid capt but he did really stupid things at times, if you think ducky getting no pus in a map that didn't even factor into who won the tournament is bad why dont you ask about fgless acts in game 5. Chohan and Magne? also fucked themselves and their team in game 5 vs tcox in 2006 where they idiotically pushed despite being screamed at by dwarf that there was pus flanking behind them. A caring Np team is probably the only one where I wouldn't have to ever worry about how stupid everyone else was acting.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 08 Aug 2013, 18:41

Asmodian wrote:NFDF beating GG was an upset, I'm just saying NFDF wasn't a bad team. They were very good and unconventional in several of their strategies.

They weren't really a team that would make it to the top 4 of any other MWC after 2001.

Dantski wrote:
Now if Happy Face or MoC could have beat a top team
Happiface beat NP in QR 4-1.

Whoops sorry, didn't remember this.

Dantski wrote:Best team to never win MWC: Grim's Goblins Happy Face,

Ok the 2012 team was stronger (although we did let Dante play in finals!) but I dunno if it was stronger than the 07 NC team. I'm picking those 2 out since I was on them and can compare them much better than a team I wasn't on. The 07 team had great depth and pretty much everyone could be relied on to do a good job, whereas the 2012 team was a little more varied in skill and had some obvious 3 ballers on it.

I wasn't thinking in those terms. I meant team "order", so I was excluding NC since they won a MWC. That particular rabble group formation could be considered a mwc order since they were all generally grim formed teams with the same core of players.

Dantski wrote:If I was going to rate the best team since 2003 I'd immediately discard the teams that had to go to SD except NP who had 1 week of attendance issues (so that's 2007 TCox, 2008 Armageddon, 2009 NC, don't remember 2010 and 2012 SP.)

What if we just compared game wins including SD and factored that into the discussion?

That leaves BIA who tied in points and had a long forum thread about CTF scoring so they're out, BME who honestly wiped the floor with all the serious contenders in 2004 (losing games to AGE and Syn is fine since they weren't that strong), 2006 NP who convincingly won the finals and knocked out BME with ease however came extremely close to losing to BIA, 2010 NC who were kinda on their own at the top of that tourney and played a TCox team that wasn't particularly strong, and 2011 Bullz who like BME in 2004 steamrolled virtually everyone. BME and Bullz were both very strong teams so I'd say its a tie.[/quote]

2004 and 2011 had a lot less skill condensation than 2006. In 2006 there were almost no 4-5 ballers outside of the top 4 teams, and they all had a lot of close matches with each other, but didn't give up losses to weak teams. In 2004 and 2011, you saw more 4-5 ballers on teams not placing in the top 4, and the best team beating down on weaker ones. Bullz vs NC in 2011 was also a stylistically bad matchup for NC.

grim · Post by **grim** » 08 Aug 2013, 19:10

Now that we're getting all analytical here, I'd just like to also point out that all Grim's goblin's cocks formed teams were just winging it. That means all teams I formed post MWC06. There was 0 preparation for any matches, including finals. The 07 team was jus so stacked it didn't matter as competition was so weak that year, but it almost cost us the finals. Basically in every MWC since 06 we were facing teams with mega nuclear care preparation mode, while we just showed up to play and see how it goes. Even last year it was just Ducky who even bothered to look through the maps. This kinda makes a huge difference.

The 06 NP team however was on a mega care mode in order to kill BME (which by the way was also still on mega care mode, dunno why you people are saying they weren't).

Ps. GG04 was our weakest team ever as our only outside reinforcements that year were Tainted Bliss and Arz' brother Riwen. But we still beat NC 3-2!

Ps #2. Armageddon lost to Tcox 7vs4 in MWC08. Best team ever.

Ps #3. It's care accuser, Cu, not excuser. J'accuse you know?

Cutard · Post by **Cutard** » 08 Aug 2013, 19:14

Who knew grimcock was the biggest care excuser of all?

par73 · Post by **par73** » 08 Aug 2013, 20:46

Dantski wrote:
BME who honestly wiped the floor with all the serious contenders in 2004 (losing games to AGE and Syn is fine since they weren't that strong), 2006 NP who convincingly won the finals and knocked out BME with ease however came extremely close to losing to BIA,

I just wanted to note that uhh
BME didn't lose to syn or age in 04, i think they lost those games in 06
and 06 np had to go to sudden death to win the finals.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 08 Aug 2013, 20:47

Cutard wrote:A caring Np team is probably the only one where I wouldn't have to ever worry about how stupid everyone else was acting.

yeah coz rab treated everyone like retards and babysat everything! i agree!

I'm pretty sure this is the only real effective way to cap, just ask GKG

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 08 Aug 2013, 23:44

well np had to go to SD in '06 because they were in the bottom bracket for losing that 4v7 game vs smurfs o:

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 09 Aug 2013, 01:16

about raz's teams in 07 and 08, I am not sure how you can say the raz team in 07 was shit and the raz team in 08 was really good. they were both the same damn team practically, raz, ew and I were the core. and we were shit both years. raz always did retarded strategies, gave me like 25% of the units to attempt to heavy hit since I was the best player. I would then of course often get 2v1'd down because I have way too many units. Raz would of course never give orders during the game, except the one order in pt which was always the same - "go your ways, see what they do, and adjust from there". this was the same every single game. we placed 4th both those years, and never were competitive with the top 3 teams, there was a clear skill gap between us and the top 3. every one of them rolled us when it mattered in the DE rounds.

armageddon in 2008 was at 4th place after a poor QR performance (did they really lose 7vs 4 tcox?), so not sure how anyone could consider them a top mwc team of all time, not even close.

also, NC in 2009 was obviously much stronger than NC in 2010. Nothing is going to replace a giant gaping hole of skill left behind from ghengis and I both leaving.

oh, and stylistic mismatches are complete bullshit. if we are going to talk about stylistic mismatches, then let's just say every team that ever lost was just stylistically mismatches against whoever beat them. the stylistic mismatch was in there general myth skill and strategy. there is only superior, and inferior.

Who is the best MWC champion