Throw bottle or satchel? Which and Why? Best arguments.

A single berserk reached us yesterday, after having come all the way over the mountains from the city of Willow, fourteen hundred miles away. He delivered to Alric a single package the size of a man's fist, wrapped in rags, and refuses to talk with anyone about events in the West.
Jottle
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Throw bottle or satchel? Which and Why? Best arguments.

Post by Jottle »

I'm sure someone can chime in here and settle this question with some stats. This is your chance Tangoes, Ghol King :). But I've always been curious: is a dorf bottle more powerful than a satchel when it's thrown as a projectile? The reason I'm curious is that I see two different strategies for ghol pus bombs along with particular benefits/drawbacks to each strat:

1. Bottle/pus combo: Dud bottles are basically unlimited if you have at least one dorf, play on a large map, or play any game that lasts awhile and has dorfs as a trade option (especially where water/rain is present and plentiful). Games with high time limits will have many more dud bottles for the taking as well. Ghols seem to throw bottles farther than satchels (true?), and the bottles take an extra second or so to ignite and explode. That extra throwing distance and trigger time allows the ghol a better chance of fleeing before the bomb goes off. But are the bottles weaker than the satchels?

2. Satchel/pus combo: Satchels are in limited supply unless you're playing on a map that allows for multiple dorfs. They are rarely (never?) just sitting around on stock multiplayer maps waiting to be picked up. If they are, you have to run around to each player's starting point to find the satchels that they dropped at the beginning of the game. And using using satchels will almost always require using up points for a dorf if one wants to load up with satchel/pus bombs at the beginning of a match. Unless satchels are more powerful than a single bottle, I'm not sure if this is ever a better option (verify?). It seems as though ghols can't throw satchels nearly as far as bottles, and satchels instantly ignite, leaving the ghol's poor carcass in its wake.

I like to think of these as instant bombs (satchel/pus) versus slightly time delayed bombs (bottle/pus). You can always immediately make a satchel bomb at the beginning of the game as long as you have a dorf. To make a bottle/pus bomb, you'll have to find some water or throw a couple of bottles and wait for a random dud. That wait for a dud will inevitably eat into your ability to position your army favorably in a quick lmonth or ctf match unless you start out next to or cross a body of water.

So is one combo more powerful than the other? Any other pro's/con's that I'm missing? Bonus annoying question: is a pus/mortar bomb even more powerful than the other bombs?
sasper
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Re: Throw bottle or satchel? Which and Why? Best arguments.

Post by sasper »

bottle < satchel < mort for power. satchels don't get thrown at all, just dropped. bottles are very unreliable, they can fly anywhere before exploding. its hardly ever worth the effort anyway. when you see a bunch of ghols coming at you, you spread your units.
adrenaline
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Re: Throw bottle or satchel? Which and Why? Best arguments.

Post by adrenaline »

satchel/puss is deadly with multiple ghol/satchels but you can almost guarantee your ghols will die in the process. it can be a good trade off if done properly, and if the puss doesn't dud.

bottle/puss can also be amazing, if done properly. it is particularly effective against styg packs or clumped artillery. it will usually blow instantly if throw at max range, but risks bouncing off targets if thrown too hard (throw it short enough so that it bounces into targets, instead of clicking on/within targets).

mortar/puss is probably the most effective/reliable/predictable of the bunch. mort will blow instantly with the puss, where a bottle may not.

i've never looked at the actual stats in fear or whatever, but I'm pretty sure a satchel and bottle do about the same damage.

also, you are 15 yrs late with these questions. the game is dead.

and read this is you haven't already: http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/show/a ... -for-newbs
Jottle
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Re: Throw bottle or satchel? Which and Why? Best arguments.

Post by Jottle »

I just got back into the community after about a 10 year hiatus, but I did play almost daily back when m1 and m2 were popular. The pus/satch or pus/bottle combo used to be a bit rarer when bnet was active. But I've noticed that a lot of people are using the bottle/pus combo these days as well. So I was just curious since I hadn't seen a comparison of the various pus bomb options. Nice comprehensive guide adren. I remember reading it a bit back. Something I've always wished the game had (via patch?) is an indicator as to what a particular ghol is currently carrying (only visible to the owner of the ghol). The generic "pouch full" icon isn't very helpful. I imagine that this has never been added to community patches because it reduces the challenge of remembering which ghol is holding pus vs. satch. And I'm sure purists on here would say something along the lines of: "If you can't remember which ghol is carrying what, you're still a newb." ;)
Magic Jane
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Re: Throw bottle or satchel? Which and Why? Best arguments.

Post by Magic Jane »

Attack your Sat gohls in a zero formation, for an area effect. But kiss you sat gohls goodbye. Use the rename option (n) to identify what's what. Have a code ready. You can also use pre sets. 0 for puss,9 for bottles, 4 for the set, for example.
shinco
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Re: Throw bottle or satchel? Which and Why? Best arguments.

Post by shinco »

adrenaline wrote:satchel/puss is deadly with multiple ghol/satchels but you can almost guarantee your ghols will die in the process. it can be a good trade off if done properly, and if the puss doesn't dud.

bottle/puss can also be amazing, if done properly. it is particularly effective against styg packs or clumped artillery. it will usually blow instantly if throw at max range, but risks bouncing off targets if thrown too hard (throw it short enough so that it bounces into targets, instead of clicking on/within targets).

mortar/puss is probably the most effective/reliable/predictable of the bunch. mort will blow instantly with the puss, where a bottle may not.

i've never looked at the actual stats in fear or whatever, but I'm pretty sure a satchel and bottle do about the same damage.

also, you are 15 yrs late with these questions. the game is dead.

and read this is you haven't already: http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/show/a ... -for-newbs
I remember how infuriated people on the TFL Demo would get when you rushed satchel ghols into all of their warriors.

shinco
par73
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Re: Throw bottle or satchel? Which and Why? Best arguments.

Post by par73 »

its all about tricking your opponent; whatevers best is situationally codependent on what they will fall for in that moment and probability of success
if someone eats satchels, expects you to have a gholpack, or puss: you feed them that shit
if someone eats bottle puss you feed them that shit too
if someone doesn't know how to scatter units (or even better, too lazy) you feed them both

results are always hilarious, you can't go wrong with either
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