@Flatline

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 20 Mar 2013, 12:34

I just watched the 2001 finals films again after our argument tonight and after doing so I have a question for you. Have you honestly ever rewatched those films,like ever? Not only are they not impressive for a mwc finals but they aren't even impressive for a good rabble game. Groups of 10 souls getting blindsided yo by a lock on the final deciding SD game 2 times! Trow Blocking lock shots using 3 trow every time. Come on man! There was so much other nasty stuff I saw throughout the films that just made me laugh. I don't even feel the need to try and argue how much better the players and myth 2 tactics have gotten after watching those films. Watch them and point proven.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 20 Mar 2013, 12:57

This argument has been beaten to death already... let it go.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 20 Mar 2013, 22:56

I re-watched them, too. There's never been a question of skill, but of relativity. I hate the term, but I consider myself a (retired) military history buff, specifically focusing on the careers of people like Scipio, Alexander, Adolphus, Yamashita, etc. There's no comparison between the two, though you'd think there'd be parallels. The difference is, of course, the tools available, primarily information and arms. Myth doesn't possess any assets that have changed so dramatically (other than tweaks here or there from patches).

switch · Post by **switch** » 21 Mar 2013, 01:02

Arguing that there is no comparison between the leadership styles of classical and modern military leadership personages is incredibly naive and focuses entirely on technological determinism to the exclusion of the fundamental principles of strategy, tactics and military leadership theory. Shocking.

Vantobia · Post by **Vantobia** » 21 Mar 2013, 01:09

he dun goofed

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » 21 Mar 2013, 01:19

Asmo wrote:I just watched the 2001 finals films again after our argument tonight and after doing so I have a question for you. Have you honestly ever rewatched those films,like ever? Not only are they not impressive for a mwc finals but they aren't even impressive for a good rabble game. Groups of 10 souls getting blindsided yo by a lock on the final deciding SD game 2 times! .

Ok I'll go through this again. It's easy to point out horrible things people do in games when you watch films. Not just games from 2001 but games from NOW and in fact EVERY GAME EVER.
If you want a comparison it took me all of 2 minutes of thinking to give you one.

Your reference to 10 souls getting blindsided by a lock or something as something terrible that only happens in 2k1 is garbage.

Watch the BARB VALLEY DARK LMOTH game from Team Ratking - Team GKG in the QR from your own draft tourney end of last year.
Near the end of the game at a crucial stage cremisi morts like 10 soulless controlled by GKG with a single mort shot (BLINDSIDED YO), which incidentally probably won us the game.

So this is the same type of shit happening in 2012 by arguably THE BEST PLAYER ON MYTH in 2012........... that is exactly the same shit that was so terrible say in 2001.

Or watch the ACTS OF CRUELTY game from team asmo-team ratking in your same draft tournament.(actually you were in that match yourself).

Adrenaline pusses his own fg and dies horribly in that game. and Adren is probably in top 5 best players around now in 2013...

Yep same horrible shit happens in 2012-2013 that happened in 2k1 or any other year ever.

Pretty sure i could point out terrible terrible stuff in any film you want to give me from 2001 to now.

Vantobia · Post by **Vantobia** » 21 Mar 2013, 01:26

Dayyum, who is going thtough films from 2001 ?

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 21 Mar 2013, 01:33

in terms of tools wwo - I'd actually say connections and cpu speed too even.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 21 Mar 2013, 01:46

Comparing the top 2 teams in mwc 2001 to some random teams put together? Try comparing it to any other finalist of mwc from 2004 forward. Also players are better now because of decision making and tactics not necessarily clicking (which could be argued).

flat so mad
so bad
so sad

SeekerAntiVegan · Post by **SeekerAntiVegan** » 21 Mar 2013, 02:14

wwo has a history of avoiding confrontation.

I fully expect him to avoid this debate with switch.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 02:47

Again with this "arguably top 5" nonsense. Name 4 that are "arguably better" so I can laugh at you and point out the error of your ways.

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » 21 Mar 2013, 03:28

adrenaline wrote:Again with this "arguably top 5" nonsense. Name 4 that are "arguably better" so I can laugh at you and point out the error of your ways.

GKG
Tirri
EW
Shaister

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 03:39

please, let's not compare an mwc finals match to a "draft tourney" which is little better than the average rabble games.

I am not even going to get into the argument, but I just want to know the answer to asmo's initial very simple question. Have you ever re-watched those films, flat?

also, what about ghengis?

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » 21 Mar 2013, 03:54

GiantKillerGen wrote:
I am not even going to get into the argument, but I just want to know the answer to asmo's initial very simple question. Have you ever re-watched those films, flat?

I watch them probably once a month. I like to switch from porn to mwc 2001 films now and then for jerking off. The same old porn sometimes gets boring.

GiantKillerGen wrote: also, what about ghengis?

What about him?

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 04:00

I don't know why you are getting so passive aggressive over such a simple question. Judging by your resistance to answer such an easy and simple question, I am guessing you haven't actually ever re-watched those films again, even through all these arguments over the years.

about ghengis - names were being thrown around about top 5 players, and was just curious if people forgot about ghengis.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 21 Mar 2013, 04:25

SeekerAntiVegan wrote:wwo has a history of avoiding confrontation.

I fully expect him to avoid this debate with switch.

There is no debate. Switch got it ass-backward; I was talking strategic evolution. Wellington would kick as much ass now or 500 BC as long as he had the benefit of history. I was speaking in terms of where the evolution lay, bottom-up not top-down.

switch · Post by **switch** » 21 Mar 2013, 04:34

I'm confused, wwo. If the principles of strategy and leadership are eternal, then any man living in any era who masters them should find themselves equipped for battle. Was it Wellington's keenness of mind, or the 18th century aristocratic educational paradigm that produced his military triumphs? You seem to endorse the structural argument against that of the agent?

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 04:35

One perhaps, one questionable, and two definitely not. Try again, Flat!

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 04:38

well you can log on now adren and we can find out for sure

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 21 Mar 2013, 04:38

Same dumb argument every year...

Can anyone link to one mwc film where noone makes mistakes? I don't care enough to go get the mwc01 films and see what asmo is talking about.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 04:44

GiantKillerGen wrote:well you can log on now adren and we can find out for sure

I'm posting from my phone... gf is sleeping in our room right next to my computer. I won't be logging in

and fyi... you were the perhaps haha. The rest... matter of opinion, but I don't believe so.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 04:51

well we should 1v1 this week, i need some video for my gkgtv project.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 04:55

If I am online, for sure. Dunno if I'll have much opportunity before Sunday though. i watched a couple of your vids too... we have VERY different playing styles haha. I should record my screen when we 1v1 too... could be interesting to compare.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 21 Mar 2013, 05:24

There can't be an agent without a structure to operate within.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 05:29

I'll also add this... there truly is not much separating the top players from one another... any one of them can and will beat any of the others from time to time. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Team games are obviously different than 1v1... They certainly level the playing field, since unit sets are typically smaller than in 1v1. In terms of 1v1, GKG is really the only player with a winning record against me in the last few years. I haven't really 1v1d Tirri... but i'm sure they'd be good games. I've only played a few less-than-serious duels with EW... he really doesn't 1v1 much. Shai just doesn't care enough these days to play at the level he used to... he was certainly among the best of the best though. He is still very very good, just doesn't play enough to keep the rust off completely. Much of what i know, I learned from him. As for Ghengis... he's played well in the last couple of MWCs, no doubt... but he was also supported by excellent teammates. I've never struggled against him 1v1 or in smaller team games, though.

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 21 Mar 2013, 05:51

I do play a decent # of 1v1s - just haven't really played vs you in a series I believe. But ya I'd be down. Haven't played tirri. Gk and I have some good games. GKG is the most consistent I'd say - he'd win the most consistently, solid play without mistakes. But other than that I do agree w. adren that on any day any of the top players can beat each other.

In terms of team games... being a good teamate factors in too - its just not about raw BC power. Obv. you get some isolated fights where you are 1v1 in teamgames... but that's really not the point. More likely to win w. help and flanks.

tirri · Post by **tirri** » 21 Mar 2013, 07:02

ive heard punctual has a winning record against adren

grim · Post by **grim** » 21 Mar 2013, 07:52

What the hell is a retired military history buff.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 21 Mar 2013, 08:04

Punctualated

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » 21 Mar 2013, 09:52

Myrk wrote:Same dumb argument every year...

Can anyone link to one mwc film where noone makes mistakes? I.

No they can't. Which is a big part of my point and not just mistakes, but horrible mistakes.

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » 21 Mar 2013, 10:04

tirri wrote:ive heard punctual has a winning record against adren

Punctual was really good at 1v1 in the few times i saw him play.

Although I only saw him play maybe 5 times?
The results of the games I saw him play was beating adren twice in a row on PG then losing to EW immediately after.
I think i saw him play GKG twice in two awesome games to watch (and truly i usually hate watching 1v1s they look so terrible as an observer), but these 2 games were actually really good to watch which was surprising. I think the 2 games i saw went 1-1. One game was a pretty epic demise lmoth.

he was also an awesomely funny guy in lobby chat. Shame he isn't around anymore.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 12:39

Punctual lol... Tirri I think we played 4 games in total... you won 2 (gimble and pg) and i won 2 another pg, and demise). I think the demise game i was playing as "Snake" or "Dog" or something on another account. We have never actually played a series. So no, thats not much of a winning record. Gimble is also the worst 1v1 map ever... so much depends on starts, duds, etc. Anyone can beat anyone on gimble. p.s. flat, punctual was Tirri.

And I liked your 3rd ghol strat on gimble tirri... i've borrowed that a few times lol.

Cutard · Post by **Cutard** » 21 Mar 2013, 14:12

#fisting

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 14:18

my most challenging 1v1s were against tirri in the sunset tournament back in 2009-2010 I think. I still won convincingly twice though. I was really on top of my game during that though.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 14:43

Surely our $100 match was a challenge? haha... I really only remember one game from that series... the KG that came down to a dorf vs dorf fight around the flag for like 5 min... that was pretty epic... wish i still had that film.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 15:00

well despite the fact that i lost, i don't consider it more challenging really because i was on 4 hours of sleep and played like shit accordingly. so that wasn't the highest quality match i've been a part of.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 15:08

I could make that same argument about many of our 1v1 matches lol... why on earth would you challenge me to a high stakes 1v1 on 4 hrs of sleep?!

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 16:15

well i was expecting the money to get me tons and tons of 1v1 matches, people just lining up to play me. instead i got nobody, it lasted for 2 weeks, and i only got 2 matches, and i still had to pull teeth to get both of them. i was so incredibly disappointing after those 2 weeks i got reckless and careless.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 16:29

Pull teeth? i accepted the challenge without question! but i hear ya... very few people are willing to commit to a 1v1 match... trying to protect their reputations i suspect.

tirri · Post by **tirri** » 21 Mar 2013, 16:33

haha punctual tells me that adren is at his revisionist best again. talking about adrens past myth losses with him is like entering into a different reality where laws of mathematics dont apply.

according to punctual he has played adren on 2 different occasions and the results are 6-1. he also played a demise game against someone named wildcat so if that indeed was adren, then the results are 6-2.

still punctual thinks its amazing someone can turn a 6-2 results into a 2-2 tie in less than a year. i will ask punctual for films if adren denies this

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 21 Mar 2013, 17:12

I played well vs punctirri actually... small sample set though

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 17:21

Ah yes... wildcat... that's the one. Certainly don't recall 4 losses though... either it didnt happen or i was drunk; in which case it still didn't "happen". What i do remember, however, is you dodging countless 1v1 challenges in the last few years. I don't suppose anything has changed there, has it?

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 21 Mar 2013, 17:23

can't forget krok either - when he gives a shit he's up there as well

Honkey · Post by **Honkey** » 21 Mar 2013, 17:26

R3 would have dick slapped any 2001 team bottom line. And I used to be in the camp grim destroyed in his article I was smart enough to change my opinion after being presented with facts... More competitive then ?yes..... More skill now? Yes

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 17:33

Yep kirk deserves mention for sure. he is rusty as shit right now though... we played a 1v1 not long ago and he didnt fair so well. all he plays lately is gladiators and random coops lol.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 17:48

tirri, why dont u just play him then? not hard.

switch · Post by **switch** » 21 Mar 2013, 17:54

Can agents create or change the structure, or do the agents exist permanently within the confines of the predefined structure? What came first, the structure or the agents that constructed it?

tirri · Post by **tirri** » 21 Mar 2013, 18:19

here are the films punctual sent me
http://depositfiles.com/files/wq4smh4dk

i have said it a hundred times, i dont have a habit of going out to play 1v1 with people i dislike. adren always has an excuse when he loses, just like liger. when i finally gave up and demolished liger, what good did it really do except create more elaborate lies and excuses? last time adren challenged me to 1v1s there was a 1v1 tourney going so i joined it and told him to meet me in the finals. i beat people like karma, paris and ghengis to get there. adren lost to ducky, i believe his reason was "he was playing tired".

well im tired of your excuses comrade, getttt oouuuuuuut

par73 · Post by **par73** » 21 Mar 2013, 18:24

tirri wrote:here are the films punctual sent me
http://depositfiles.com/files/wq4smh4dk

i have said it a hundred times, i dont have a habit of going out to play 1v1 with people i dislike. adren always has an excuse when he loses, just like liger. when i finally gave up and demolished liger, what good did it really do except create more elaborate lies and excuses? last time adren challenged me to 1v1s there was a 1v1 tourney going so i joined it and told him to meet me in the finals. i beat people like karma, paris and ghengis to get there. adren lost to ducky, i believe his reason was "he was playing tired".

well im tired of your excuses comrade, getttt oouuuuuuut

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 21 Mar 2013, 18:39

Honkey wrote:R3 would have dick slapped any 2001 team bottom line. And I used to be in the camp grim destroyed in his article I was smart enough to change my opinion after being presented with facts... More competitive then ?yes..... More skill now? Yes

Yet you still don't have any skill

And R3? lol