Myth 1.9

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

Let's start talking about the changes you'd like to see with an updated version of Myth.

I don't like that they messed with pathfinding, and special commands with Myth 1.8. Oftentimes, you have to taunt/stop your unit before it responds to a new special T command. really annoying especially when playing a game with lots of specials and inventory.

I have ALWAYS been able to right-click through the top status bar. 1.8 changed that. I want to be able to click through it quickly by flicking my mouse up to gesture click where I want my units to go. Now, I flick to the top, but have to track down a bit before clicking. Myth is all about timing, and this slows it down.

[par73]

lots of weird things about this game are still broken

has the pathfinding gotten worse? it seemed that way

sometimes when i am giving commands and reselections on the fly it almost seems as if myth is too slow to process it or there is some sort of .5 - 1 second delay present basically interrupting the control and flow of the units. this is most evident when i am using presets.

usually i press enter at that point and click the closest enemy unit to resolve the game in the quickest manner.

the #1 feature i'd like to see is the ability for players to rejoin a game once disconnected. especially for games that are 10+min the ability to rejoin a game is a must.


i'd like to see more clothes on the trow as well, as this game has never been PC, and those scandalous giants have yet to be reprimanded for expressing their belief of getting stoned in their underwear

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

lots of weird things about this game are still broken

has the pathfinding gotten worse? it seemed that way

sometimes when i am giving commands and reselections on the fly it almost seems as if myth is too slow to process it or there is some sort of .5 - 1 second delay present basically interrupting the control and flow of the units. this is most evident when i am using presets.

usually i press enter at that point and click the closest enemy unit to resolve the game in the quickest manner.

the #1 feature i'd like to see is the ability for players to rejoin a game once disconnected. especially for games that are 10+min the ability to rejoin a game is a must.


i'd like to see more clothes on the trow as well, as this game has never been PC, and those scandalous giants have yet to be reprimanded for expressing their belief of getting stoned in their underwear

Yeah pathfinding is somehow different, and there is a lag between commands being input by you, and the unit actually following suit. I feel like it was made to make shittier mythers feel more relevant since the elite players rely on perfect response times and fast micro management. Sometimes I have to REALLY press on my keyboard for a unit to do a command.

[punkUser]

has the pathfinding gotten worse? it seemed that way

Just to nip all these discussions in the bud in advance - no, practically nothing gameplay-wise changed with 1.8. Very little has changed with gameplay in a loooong time so let's keep the discussions based in reality

sometimes when i am giving commands and reselections on the fly it almost seems as if myth is too slow to process it or there is some sort of .5 - 1 second delay present basically interrupting the control and flow of the units. this is most evident when i am using presets.

Do you use the new presets or the old ones? Old presets have some built-in delay in a few case like saving presets obviously - and they always have. The new preset stuff solves many of those issues with the more modern setup. Again, none of the legacy stuff changed - feel free to go back to 1.7.2 and see for yourself.

Actually the latency of command response *decreased* by a whole frame in multiplayer in 1.8, although there's enough built-in latency in Myth's animations that it isn't obvious if you're not measuring it specifically.

the #1 feature i'd like to see is the ability for players to rejoin a game once disconnected. especially for games that are 10+min the ability to rejoin a game is a must.

This unfortunately goes in the "very hard" category - not likely to happen. Ideally in 2015 people shouldn't be getting disconnected nearly as often as in the past though... I guess there's still flaky internet will cell towers and the like but I don't actually remember the last time I got disconnected from a Myth game.

[sasper]

can't believe they never got the pathfinding right, i can't be that hard. myth still can't figure out how to get units to the mid in a straight line on dmc/float without zigzagging all over the place or lots of waypoints. unbelievable.

[Renwood]

Great topic Kirk.

I second that Parpar. As punk knows I also have begged him for the addition of join games in progress or at least players who get dropped to be able to rejoin. This is the #1 thing that would be awesome if ever added.

Well, sometimes playing myth seems like the controls it gives you, its like trying to paint on a canvas with hands made out of pudding. Just not enough finite accurate control to do all that is required during intense combat.

For example, If I have a few melee selected and there is a big melee clump fight with my dudes vs some enemy dudes and maybe one of the enemies like a Maul breaks off from the clump to kill my fetch or something, I cant just click my selected zerks (more then 1) and tell them to kill the maul. If the maul is still kinda close to his teammates, it will highlight all the mauls. If I shift click the Maul with my zerks, it will highlight ALL the nearby enemies of any type. So if I want to maybe lets say, just use a preset to select my zerks, They will not target the 1 maul going after my fetch, they will target ALL the Mauls or ALL the nearby enemy units. So I have to click a few zerks and tell each one separately to attack the Maul. Because if the Maul has any health hes going to kill the fetch real quick and 1 zerk aint gonna save the fetch in time. So we need some simple modifier key to tell multiple units to attack just 1 enemy in a group of enemies.

Another thing I always wanted was the ability to use a T or special command to attack the ground that is currently occupied by friendly or enemy units. Because you cant use a special and attack the ground if the ground currently has friendlies or enemies near it or on it
So if you want to shoot a fire arrow at the ground to ignite satchels, if some dudes are about to walk over the satch, myth will think you tried to click the guys and then it will lead the targets and make the fire arrow miss where you WANTED it to land. This also applies for any other special T attack where you need to attack the ground
We need a modifier key for special T attacks to attack ground that works the same way ctrl click to attack ground works with dorfs or archers. As in with ctrl click you can attack the ground regardless if it is currently covered with enemy and friendly units.

Forever (for like 17 years) I have heard people who play myth casually WISH there was a way for when they are CAPTAIN to not accidentally select the other teammates units. THIS SHOULD BE A HOST OPTION CHECKBOX that can be turned on or off. I say this because I know some people will bitch to no end about a change to this, so it should be a host's option to allow it or not in game. I believe this way it would be awesome to have the captain ONLY be able to control other teammate's units when the captain owns them/they are detached from the teammate to the captain. You see the major problems with NOT having this option when you team with newer people in free for all or 2 team games and you see people yelling and getting pissed at their captains for controlling their units "STOP CONTROLLING MY FING UNITS!!!"

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

SOMETHING has changed. Playing Glad5 on 1.7.2 for roughly 2 years and never had an issue with units response. Now, I have to stop a unit or taunt him entirely to get it to heal himself or use holy cloud with paladine. There is obviously some sort of gameplay issue. It will literally take me mashing on my keyboard to get units to react. Then you end up using more heals and shit than you wanted to simply because you don't know if it will work or not.

[punkUser]

All I can suggest is if you can take a video or something of what is happening with the two exes (1.7.2 and 1.8) in the same directory and post it at PM.net they can maybe take a look at it.

This really isn't the ideal place to discuss 1.9 stuff of course if you want any of it to actually happen, but feel free to continue as long as it is constructive.

Agreed about an option for captains not to be able to control other units (without first detaching them back at least). I guess it gets a bit weird with selections and so on given how detach works, but there's probably some workable middle-ground (like can select, but orders don't affect them if they are not yours).

[Renwood]

I would post on Magma about stuff like this and bugs but, ya know, lifetime ban and all. Not going to make more dummy accounts and pretend not to be me, just so I can help magma fix myth. I sometimes go on udogs.hl and find melekor or Mryd and tell them and they work with me on it. Punk I see nobody downloaded my film about the teleporting to ground bug. You gonna look into that if you get some free time? Its a pretty serious bug, ooga suspects it might be objects like bottles and pus that promote in fear that are susceptible.

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

Great topic Kirk.

I second that Parpar. As punk knows I also have begged him for the addition of join games in progress or at least players who get dropped to be able to rejoin. This is the #1 thing that would be awesome if ever added.

Well, sometimes playing myth seems like the controls it gives you, its like trying to paint on a canvas with hands made out of pudding. Just not enough finite accurate control to do all that is required during intense combat.

For example, If I have a few melee selected and there is a big melee clump fight with my dudes vs some enemy dudes and maybe one of the enemies like a Maul breaks off from the clump to kill my fetch or something, I cant just click my selected zerks (more then 1) and tell them to kill the maul. If the maul is still kinda close to his teammates, it will highlight all the mauls. If I shift click the Maul with my zerks, it will highlight ALL the nearby enemies of any type. So if I want to maybe lets say, just use a preset to select my zerks, They will not target the 1 maul going after my fetch, they will target ALL the Mauls or ALL the nearby enemy units. So I have to click a few zerks and tell each one separately to attack the Maul. Because if the Maul has any health hes going to kill the fetch real quick and 1 zerk aint gonna save the fetch in time. So we need some simple modifier key to tell multiple units to attack just 1 enemy in a group of enemies.

Another thing I always wanted was the ability to use a T or special command to attack the ground that is currently occupied by friendly or enemy units. Because you cant use a special and attack the ground if the ground currently has friendlies or enemies near it or on it
So if you want to shoot a fire arrow at the ground to ignite satchels, if some dudes are about to walk over the satch, myth will think you tried to click the guys and then it will lead the targets and make the fire arrow miss where you WANTED it to land. This also applies for any other special T attack where you need to attack the ground
We need a modifier key for special T attacks to attack ground that works the same way ctrl click to attack ground works with dorfs or archers. As in with ctrl click you can attack the ground regardless if it is currently covered with enemy and friendly units.

Forever (for like 17 years) I have heard people who play myth casually WISH there was a way for when they are CAPTAIN to not accidentally select the other teammates units. THIS SHOULD BE A HOST OPTION CHECKBOX that can be turned on or off. I say this because I know some people will bitch to no end about a change to this, so it should be a host's option to allow it or not in game. I believe this way it would be awesome to have the captain ONLY be able to control other teammate's units when the captain owns them/they are detached from the teammate to the captain. You see the major problems with NOT having this option when you team with newer people in free for all or 2 team games and you see people yelling and getting pissed at their captains for controlling their units "STOP CONTROLLING MY FING UNITS!!!"

Shift+ double click is how you target a single unit out of several btw. You have 4 zerks, you need to attack the one lead maul about to kill your fetch, but there are several mauls, you press shift and double click that maul to tell them all to attack that specific maul. It still shows all the mauls get selected but the units react accordingly.

One thing I wish there was a better system for is different types of melee. If you are attacking a bunched group of units, and you shift double click a certain unit type, your units will ONLY attack that unit type within a group, meaning they are potentially going to moonwalk and run around trying to attack only that unit type. But then if you just auto click on the group, your units will randomly target units regardless of their proximity to yours. Yes, you can stop, then gesture move your units forward with the arrow so they auto attack the closest unit, but this is not always ideal. Even under this scenario I've seen it where they only target one unit type again too.


I honestly think that pathfinding is fine where it is right now. I like the simplicity of it, because lets face it, the way the map terrain is outlined on most maps, units can't know 100% exactly what the best angle to take is for the shortest distance. That is where skill comes in and micromanaging. Example, clash lmoth. A map where you have to rush the center as quickly as possible. One player selects all their units and clicks mid at the start of the game. The other player controls each group of units, allowing the faster ones to move first, and moving them in a way they don't get hung up on each other and in a big line. It takes a lot more user input to tell them to do all of this, but the end result is your units get to the top of mid faster. I like that Myth has a glass ceiling when it comes to maximizing skill potential. More changes that make it linear for all players to be more successful is not a good philosophy on a game that still exists BECAUSE of how challenging it is.

I do wish though that units would respond to your input as quickly as you tell them to. THAT is the glass ceiling that elite players have to deal with; overplaying what the Myth engine can handle. I don't know if that is all Myth engine or if it is magma making things more balanced... referring back to my discussion about T-clicking not always working when a unit is already engaged in fighting. Say if you are using archers, and you click on an enemy unit for them to shoot at, and your next command (without moving the arcs, or hitting space, taunt, or anything else) is to T-click to use flame arrow, the arcs may or may not shoot a fire arrow, and may even continue to shoot regular arrows until you give them a different command. Things like this need to be examined. Basically, I want the user to be able to control their maximum potential, and not be handicapped because the Myth engine is too dumb to do what they put into it. But I DON'T want "smart" units that do more assumed types of behaviors unless it is commanded by the player.

[Renwood]

BIG KROK V8 SS wrote

Shift+ double click is how you target a single unit out of several btw. You have 4 zerks, you need to attack the one lead maul about to kill your fetch, but there are several mauls, you press shift and double click that maul to tell them all to attack that specific maul. It still shows all the mauls get selected but the units react accordingly.

O RLY?! Yea I guess I never gave them a few seconds to see what happens during intense combat, I just would see it light up all the nearby enemies and think they would not go after the 1 maul. Ill try that Kirk, Shift + double click!

With the archers not shooting a fire arrow when you tell them. I have noticed this to, but I think its just because they were either already about to shoot with their firing solution being calculated for a normal arrow. Or they were already in the middle of their animation to shoot a NORMAL arrow so that is why they wont shoot fire arrow right when you tell them. To avoid this I always hit Space to stop them from firing normal arrows, then I tell them to shoot fire. Not the best work around, but I would rather miss 1 volley of normal arrows and shoot fire EXACTLY when its needed and not 2 seconds later due to having to finish shooting the normal arrows and waiting for that animation to finish. Its kind of a clunky work around, but worth it to set off satchles with fire arrows exactly when you want. But I bet you already know all this.

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

BIG KROK V8 SS wrote

Shift+ double click is how you target a single unit out of several btw. You have 4 zerks, you need to attack the one lead maul about to kill your fetch, but there are several mauls, you press shift and double click that maul to tell them all to attack that specific maul. It still shows all the mauls get selected but the units react accordingly.

O RLY?! Yea I guess I never gave them a few seconds to see what happens during intense combat, I just would see it light up all the nearby enemies and think they would not go after the 1 maul. Ill try that Kirk, Shift + double click!

With the archers not shooting a fire arrow when you tell them. I have noticed this to, but I think its just because they were either already about to shoot with their firing solution being calculated for a normal arrow. Or they were already in the middle of their animation to shoot a NORMAL arrow so that is why they wont shoot fire arrow right when you tell them. To avoid this I always hit Space to stop them from firing normal arrows, then I tell them to shoot fire. Not the best work around, but I would rather miss 1 volley of normal arrows and shoot fire EXACTLY when its needed and not 2 seconds later due to having to finish shooting the normal arrows and waiting for that animation to finish. Its kind of a clunky work around, but worth it to set off satchles with fire arrows exactly when you want. But I bet you already know all this.

Right, I am taking into account that they were already in the motion of shooting a regular arrow, but what I'm saying is they will completely ignore the command, so I guess depending on when you t-click for flame arrow, they still continue to shoot regular arrows even after that initial arrow was shot regardless of when you commanded them to. So it almost always requires an additional gesture, taunt, or stop command before being able to use fire arrow. I click so much that this is never an issue, but the problem is the commands being ignored.

[par73]

has the pathfinding gotten worse? it seemed that way

Just to nip all these discussions in the bud in advance - no, practically nothing gameplay-wise changed with 1.8. Very little has changed with gameplay in a loooong time so let's keep the discussions based in reality

so whens the last time there were changes? i'm curious, what changed? none since mariusnet or playmyth?

the #1 feature i'd like to see is the ability for players to rejoin a game once disconnected. especially for games that are 10+min the ability to rejoin a game is a must.

This unfortunately goes in the "very hard" category - not likely to happen. Ideally in 2015 people shouldn't be getting disconnected nearly as often as in the past though... I guess there's still flaky internet will cell towers and the like but I don't actually remember the last time I got disconnected from a Myth game.

unfortunate but what i figured, just another forever broken aspect of this game
you don't play myth around cats kids or jj watts tho dc is realll !

[punkUser]

so whens the last time there were changes? i'm curious, what changed? none since mariusnet or playmyth?

You can read the changelogs yourself - it's all in there. Other than very specific bug fixes I don't think there have been any chances to the core gameplay code in quite a long time... obviously we're a long way from the 1.4 days when they were playing around with everything (much of which got reverted in 1.5 IIRC).

So on the plus side, host proxies aka a fallback so that anyone can host even if FW'd (with some added latency) are already implemented and working. Just gotta convince PM to get a new test build out as they are already implemented in the latest server update that went live a few weeks ago

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

so whens the last time there were changes? i'm curious, what changed? none since mariusnet or playmyth?

You can read the changelogs yourself - it's all in there. Other than very specific bug fixes I don't think there have been any chances to the core gameplay code in quite a long time... obviously we're a long way from the 1.4 days when they were playing around with everything (much of which got reverted in 1.5 IIRC).

So on the plus side, host proxies aka a fallback so that anyone can host even if FW'd (with some added latency) are already implemented and working. Just gotta convince PM to get a new test build out as they are already implemented in the latest server update that went live a few weeks ago

What would explain the issues I have with giving commands with T-click?

[Revan]

Since this 1.9 thread is more seen than anything on Tain forum I'd like to throw in some requests of my own.

1. Can you guys finally fix the post game narration loop?
Ex. In the Myth 3 port, once you get to the win/loss screen in single player, the narration will play.. then it will repeat.. again and again, I don't really mind this part but its painfully annoying when you click on next level and theres a cutscene between levels and you can STILL hear the post game narration audio playing over the cutscene which conflicts now hearing two different audio sources.

2. More Loathing space? Not a big deal but I would like higher limits in things such as local projectiles, object definitions and lightning.
Also in Loathing I notice the max MA param is 70k, while ingame holding f5 it shows the max being 90k? Is the extra 20k for loading something or is it unused?

3. Another Loathing request, I'd like the ability to see detail textures and possibly use my in game settings to see it in real time?
ex: I'm placing scenery or whatnot on ground that would look ordinary in loathing but in game with textures on there is a puddle, flower bed, etc and would be nice to see where I'm placing plants or grass etc while I'm doing it in Loathing instead of going back and forth. Just because the graphics displayed in loathing is like playing the game in software mode (probably a safe-boot sort of thing is the reason i'm guessing it's like that)


4. Oak, Can you make it so I can see Objects and Models, units etc in Oak? Like a toggle. Would be nice and an alternative answer to #3


5. Multiplayer, If i have a group of melee, click on enemy group of melee, it highlights them all and apparently they attack them at random instead of the closest target. Please make them attack the closest target to each individual in the attacking group? It's not very Myth-Like I guess but I get tired of losing melee fights even when i have superior numbers because my units want to go after the enemys in the back and just soak damage trying to get un reachable enemies in the clash. I know you can micro them better or just use the arrow but that wastes time...

6. Wheres my higher res colormaps (more than 256 colors) at already!? been waiting for that since 1.7 i think..

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

Since this 1.9 thread is more seen than anything on Tain forum I'd like to throw in some requests of my own.

1. Can you guys finally fix the post game narration loop?
Ex. In the Myth 3 port, once you get to the win/loss screen in single player, the narration will play.. then it will repeat.. again and again, I don't really mind this part but its painfully annoying when you click on next level and theres a cutscene between levels and you can STILL hear the post game narration audio playing over the cutscene which conflicts now hearing two different audio sources.

2. More Loathing space? Not a big deal but I would like higher limits in things such as local projectiles, object definitions and lightning.
Also in Loathing I notice the max MA param is 70k, while ingame holding f5 it shows the max being 90k? Is the extra 20k for loading something or is it unused?

3. Another Loathing request, I'd like the ability to see detail textures and possibly use my in game settings to see it in real time?
ex: I'm placing scenery or whatnot on ground that would look ordinary in loathing but in game with textures on there is a puddle, flower bed, etc and would be nice to see where I'm placing plants or grass etc while I'm doing it in Loathing instead of going back and forth. Just because the graphics displayed in loathing is like playing the game in software mode (probably a safe-boot sort of thing is the reason i'm guessing it's like that)


4. Oak, Can you make it so I can see Objects and Models, units etc in Oak? Like a toggle. Would be nice and an alternative answer to #3


5. Multiplayer, If i have a group of melee, click on enemy group of melee, it highlights them all and apparently they attack them at random instead of the closest target. Please make them attack the closest target to each individual in the attacking group? It's not very Myth-Like I guess but I get tired of losing melee fights even when i have superior numbers because my units want to go after the enemys in the back and just soak damage trying to get un reachable enemies in the clash. I know you can micro them better or just use the arrow but that wastes time...

6. Wheres my higher res colormaps (more than 256 colors) at already!? been waiting for that since 1.7 i think..

Don't really have any input except for #5. Myth is about being able to micro and have complete control over your units. If we change the game to allow for easier operation, then skill levels start to peak. There are easy ways of getting around this, like using the arrow or shift + double click to get your units to attack the closest unit. The ONE thing I dislike about this, is that your melee will only target similar units.

i.e. say you have 6 zerks, and you command them to attack a group consisting of mauls, myrks, and herons. Say you select your zerks, and shift double click on one of the mauls. The zerks will attack the first maul you clicked on, then proceed to attack the rest of the mauls, versus attacking the closest enemy unit afterwards. They will moonwalk around trying to get to the mauls, even while being attacked by the other units. It will get to the point where your zerk won't have anywhere else to go, so by default they will then decide to attack, but not before getting their health lowered in the clash. I believe that is how melee used to be during patch 1.3, and from then on it was changed ever since.

[Saxon]

There's a change that I would love to see, not sure if its something that can be fixed with an update to Myth.

Is there any way to alter the code for the multiplayer lobby rooms so that if somebody is AFK their name appears shadowed out and at the bottom of the list as if they were in a game? Obviously its tough for a computer to tell, so the code would need a trigger like the person not posting a line of chat for X number of minutes, or something like that.

I ask this mainly because lobby campers are a pet peeve of mine. I hate having to ask "is anybody here" when I enter a room with 15 people supposedly in it, especially since they clutter up the display so that people who are actually present in the lobby and interacting are often dumped below the bottom of the display because the campers occupy so much of the display space.

Does this bother anybody else? Is it something that is easily coded?

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

Sounds like a reasonable idea. There used to be a .afk command, but it had to be activated by the person. I can't recall if playmyth had the auto time out thing or not. I don't think having afk players in lobby is a problem but it certainly wouldn't hurt knowing who is afk/available.

[Lord---Scary Owl]

If you went afk without talking what if you were there but just didnt talk? Or you just returned and you didnt say anything..?

[Saxon]

If you went afk without talking what if you were there but just didnt talk? Or you just returned and you didnt say anything..?

Somebody who just sits in the lobby without interacting with anyone is effectively afk. That person is likely tabbed over to the internet or whatever.