REPORT BUGS, ISSUES, ANOMALIES

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 05 Feb 2013, 23:18

Well to start off a much needed Thread, check this out!

This is from about 2 weeks ago.
I had no edited local in or anything screwy,
FOR YEARS I have been trying to psych people out in FFA on carnage, saying "WTF???!! I GOT 2 TROW??!?!"
Well, I have also seen 2 times in the history of myth where a dorf dropped a satchle that was ON FIRE.
Around the same time as this TROW film, On Barb valley everybody saw some melee unit get stoned upon death at the mid.

XP SP3

Any Ideas about this trow film magma?

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 05 Feb 2013, 23:34

Haven't checked the film and not sure if it's the same thing, but note that there was a bug in Myth that was making stuff - at least detonations (stuff like satchels exploding when they were dropped), not sure what else - happen with 1/65536 probability when they should have been zero. This has been fixed for 1.8.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 06 Feb 2013, 08:00

punkuser the film shows me get 2 trow at the start of the game, the 2nd is WAY far away. I was so shocked and chatty about it, I managed to not do anything usefull with it ~8^)

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 06 Feb 2013, 18:06

Did you check the mesh in loathing? Maybe it just incorrectly has an extra trow for one team...

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 06 Feb 2013, 19:26

Theres one of the 8 team carnage unitsets where 1 team gets 2 trow and the 2 one starts right next to anopther teams starting spot, I don't recall if that team doesn't get a trow or whatever.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 07 Feb 2013, 07:35

Well project magma made the mapset, I have played this many times over the years and have never seen only 1 team get 2 trow on it...None of the other teams in this film had 2 trows, and it wasnt because of unit trading. Take a look into it punkuser, its a problem with the plugin itself, or its an engine bug, both magma should want an answer to.

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 07 Feb 2013, 14:04

I'm pretty sure the 2nd trow appears by the central east start

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 19 Feb 2013, 10:19

Hey Magma. OK I just missed 4 games in a row waiting for autohosted games to end, THEN I finally see it open and I join it.
Before I can even hit ready it BOOTS ME because I was not ready yet when it tried to start. I see this happen all the time, where the game is going to start, then somebody joins and gets booted in 1-2 seconds after coming in the room.

Can we get something like, when the game is going to start in the last 5-10 seconds and somebody joins, it restarts to like 5 seconds or 10 seconds? It really sucks to watch people get booted, because they did not have time to even hit the ready button.

This would be in the spirit of "Streamline and Polish" that Myrd used to talk about for updates to finer details of the myth engine.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 19 Feb 2013, 10:21

It would also be really nice to have a further MAX ZOOM IN feature. There are some maps where even when you zoom in all the way, its still hard to spot the big puss in a pile of it.

falcon · Post by **falcon** » 19 Feb 2013, 20:15

this is so very old. can't even call it a bug.
ps: didn't download the film.

enculator · Post by **enculator** » 20 Feb 2013, 20:26

I've seen a bug where renwood kills his assassin units in trow assassin, and yet his team lost the game??? WTF ???

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 20 Feb 2013, 22:48

The assassin game was using MWC scoring rules, NOT bungie perm scoring rules.
There was no Negative scoring in the MWC rules.
= We win
Grim admitted he was not smart enough to include negative scoring for TKed units.

blahblahblah · Post by **blahblahblah** » 21 Feb 2013, 18:20

Grim was not "smart" enough to think he had to explicitly state that killing your units in a game of assassin is a bad thing? So you thought because Grim didn't mention the STANDARD bungie negative scoring in Assassin games that everyone had been used to for 10 years that Grim suddenly changed the rules of Assassin - just for that MWC - and no one noticed but you? hahaha. talk about your inflated ego.

hahaha. Halarius. Nothing is ever Renwood's fault. It's Grim's fault that Ren suicided, it's somehow Magma's fault Ren's HD units haven't been released after 10 years of him working on them, it's the community's fault there's no Myth 4, it's always someone else who is responsible - unless it's an MWC win, then of course Ren did it all by himself.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 22 Feb 2013, 14:32

Ok, So im doing my normal Through testing, this time with our 3 year old "Myth IV HD Multiplayer Demo 1.3": http://hl.udogs.net/files/Uploads/%20Us ... 20Uploads/

and now I find this....

I pick up a wight's heart from a popped wight and go to make a puss dagger using the normal dagger that this Warrior Colorguard has in his inventory.

Then after I hit T to make him drop newly created the puss dagger in front of him, THIS happens?!?!

This got broken in 1.8 because It worked fine in 1.7 and 1.7.2
This stupid "Assert Encountered" keeps flashing on the screen and will never go away during the game...

I have included the Film of this as well.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 22 Feb 2013, 14:45

Here is the myth log.txt from the film.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 22 Feb 2013, 18:07

Someone didn't read the release notes, did they... perhaps because, oh wait, maybe you're not supposed to be testing pre-release builds?

Anyways the assert likely isn't new, just the message is so that people don't miss it in their Myth logs during testing.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 22 Feb 2013, 21:54

What I am saying IS NEW is the annoying flashing on the screen.
I have been testing myth since TFL's If I Had A Yeti, the first all new myth map ever.
To not continue to tap into a resource like that a missed opportunity on your part.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 22 Feb 2013, 23:02

Renwood wrote: To not continue to tap into a resource like that a missed opportunity on your part.

It does keep me up some nights... but slowly I'm learning to deal with it.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 26 Feb 2013, 03:11

very funny punkuser, to bad I am one of the best testers myth has ever had.
I found countless bugs before any of you magma flunkys back when I used to be one of the magma private testers.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 05 Mar 2013, 20:49

Ok well, during testing today on 1.8 build 413. I found a MAJOR BUG!
Now clearly this was not found by any of magma's testers before 413 because its in there and its a BAD BUG so dont tell me you allready knew about it!

Lets see, I go to play a single player game, a normal myth 2 solo level, near the end of a level, I try to save the game.
Gee guess what, myth completely freezes on the SAVE GAME SCREEN!

I tried other levels and get the same result, I have to alt tab and go to task manager and close the myth 2 process.

This is why you guys need me as a tester and other well versed myth devs like Road and ooga.

The myth log shows nothing, it freezes so bad it does not get a chance to report anything.

-Renwood Tester Extraordinaire

blahblahblah · Post by **blahblahblah** » 06 Mar 2013, 02:04

Renwood wrote: -Renwood Tester Extraordinaire HD

You left off your obligatory "HD" tag so I fixed it for you.

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » 06 Mar 2013, 09:37

Renwood wrote:What I am saying IS NEW is the annoying flashing on the screen.
I have been testing myth since TFL's If I Had A Yeti, the first all new myth map ever.
To not continue to tap into a resource like that a missed opportunity on your part.

I love it when someone brings up "If I had a Yeti"

blahblahblah · Post by **blahblahblah** » 09 Mar 2013, 14:38

Must be frustrating when nothing you've done in the past 13 years has earned you one shred of respect so you are reduced to bringing up ancient history.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 10 Mar 2013, 00:52

Yeti was pretty fun.

GHOSTr · Post by **GHOSTr** » 13 Mar 2013, 05:07

Renwood wrote:Hey Magma. OK I just missed 4 games in a row waiting for autohosted games to end, THEN I finally see it open and I join it.
Before I can even hit ready it BOOTS ME because I was not ready yet when it tried to start. I see this happen all the time, where the game is going to start, then somebody joins and gets booted in 1-2 seconds after coming in the room.

Can we get something like, when the game is going to start in the last 5-10 seconds and somebody joins, it restarts to like 5 seconds or 10 seconds? It really sucks to watch people get booted, because they did not have time to even hit the ready button.

This would be in the spirit of "Streamline and Polish" that Myrd used to talk about for updates to finer details of the myth engine.

You tend to come off as a condescending pr*ck, maybe try asking now and again instead of demanding and asserting what *must be* ??

BTW . . .

Main Menu >> Preferences >> Options >> Use Persistent Ready (Multiplayer)
This would be some of that streamline and polish that has been there for quiet some time now.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 13 Mar 2013, 07:38

Wow Ghost, Yea, Magma in no way needs ANY help, they got it all covered!

THEN WHAT THE FUK IS THIS?!?

THIS..

OR EVEN THIS?!?!?

BUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?!?!
In short, pretty please with sugar on top let some of us with a lot of testing skillz since TFL days help magma.

You guys do great, but things can always be BETTER! ~8^)

-Renwood

Pyro · Post by **Pyro** » 13 Mar 2013, 22:01

You both are talking about different things, figured I'd clear things up.

"Use Persistent Ready (Multiplayer)" won't help in the situation Renwood is talking about. Persistent ready (a 1.4.0 feature from 2004) makes it so you only need to press Ready once and no matter what the host changes, map or settings, the "ready" status does not change. You still need to press Ready once. Ghost probably thought you were already in the game lobby, who knows.

Autohost (a 1.5.1 feature) has its limits. Can it be better? Yes, but that means taking away time from new things. There are always more things to change or add and not enough time to do them all. Take it or leave it. There is like a 20 second wait, so you might have missed the game when it first opened. If it felt shorter, it is possible the host pressed start as he can still control the autohost and skip the waiting period. The players in the game can also stop the game from going. If less than half of the players are checked in, then the game won't go.

Renwood, your post to Ghost just gives another example to what he was referring to. He was trying to be helpful and you just spat in his face. You aren't really interested in bug finding anyways. Judging by your posts from those private tester days, it was clear you didn't really care as much about bug finding as you did about playing with new features or trying to get the devs to consider your suggestions. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that. Insulting magma (or sarcastically saying they don't need help) while trying to advocate that you would be a good tester won't make them want your help.

dac · Post by **dac** » 13 Mar 2013, 22:10

GHOSTr wrote:You tend to come off as a condescending pr*ck

Pyro wrote:Renwood, your post to Ghost just gives another example to what he was referring to. He was trying to be helpful and you just spat in his face.

you sure have a funny way of being helpful, douchebag.

see, i'm trying to be helpful too.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 13 Mar 2013, 23:54

dac wrote: you sure have a funny way of being helpful, douchebag.

Pyro, it is NOT just me that could see Ghost's post was meant to be condescending towards me with his

Main Menu >> Preferences >> Options >> Use Persistent Ready (Multiplayer)

That comes off as Mocking me, for complaining/asking for a fix that is allready in there.

If I really thought ghost was trying to be nice, I would have been as well.
I have never had any dealings with ghost negative or otherwise that I can recall ever.

Funny pyro, you talk about my private tester days as

clear you didn't really care as much about bug finding as you did about playing with new features

You must have forgotten all the posts about broken things and bugs that I brought up all the time. I also worked with mele to set up oak for the HD collection handling when we first started working with the models and magma. I also post on this forum about bugs and issues.
And

playing with new features

IS PART of TESTING. My QA days go back to bungie days and I have been published by Bungie as such. Have you? Mr. "Tester exrodinaire"?

switch · Post by **switch** » 14 Mar 2013, 00:31

You still need to press Ready once.

Chohan · Post by **Chohan** » 14 Mar 2013, 02:41

Renwood, pic related.

Chohan · Post by **Chohan** » 14 Mar 2013, 02:42

Chohan · Post by **Chohan** » 14 Mar 2013, 02:44

GHOSTr · Post by **GHOSTr** » 14 Mar 2013, 03:25

renwood wrote: My QA days go back to bungie days and I have been published by Bungie as such. Have you? Mr. "Tester exrodinaire"?

You've been *published* ?? WTF ?? Are you an Author, one of some renown mb ??

Seriously ?? This is ALL that you are ?? "I was published by Bungie". You feel that this *entitles* you to be heard above others ? Your opinions to be valued more ??

Let me see here,

Using your standard of measurement of ones value . . . Since i scripted and helped create the published 10 level Total Conversion Green Berets with Ozone and Cydonian, that sold in stores (twice) by Take2. , guess that makes me basically a game developer which is > a game tester, therefore, I am better than and i know more than you do.
Hey, this could be alright!!

If i was delusional !!!

Its been explained to me, and i can plainly see, how trying to converse with you is totally pointless. You hear only what you want to hear, you see only what you want to see, and the only good things in Myth are those things that *you* want. So be it, have fun with your delusions of grandeur, i'm gonna try to actually *contribute* to making Myth better, and live longer. Not what *I* want it to be.

BTW, i have seen Pyro, find, describe, decipher, and help squash more bugs in a single evening on HL than i could find that you had *supposedly* helped with in your "plethora of testing feedback". Similarly, most (all) your posts were the same style, mannerisms, demanding attitude, and condescending attitude that i see you spouting off here. Nearest thing i could tell you had any real hand in would be the rarely, if ever used, eat up a ton of disk space if you forget to hide the folder, mesh stains options. WHOOPEE DO DA !!

You will respond, you can not help yourself, but i am done with you and your laughable i'm so important, listen to me BS.

:: Adds bricks for brains to Foe List ::

Go suck a peach and grow up already !!

Pyro · Post by **Pyro** » 14 Mar 2013, 04:27

TL;DR version = Relax and get over it.

Well to be fair, I said Ghost was trying to be helpful not helpful and kind. He was blunt about how your posts make you seem. Maybe he was trying to suggest to post a little differently while saying so, I don't know. You don't need to have ever talked to Ghost to make him dislike you (he probably read your previous posts). If increasing the size of text is enough to consider it mocking or complaining, you just did it in your reply.

No, I did not forget about your posts. I checked before I posted to make sure my info was accurate. You have 167 posts made in the magma private testers subforum using the "Renwood" and "Renwood TWA" accounts. A handful of those were bug related comments. Only one of which was a real bug you reported first. The rest of the bug related comments were about bugs others reported first as well as a few false bugs you reported that ended up being differences in one of your tagsets and not Myth. I recall one of these because I had to take screenshots to show you it wasn't a bug but something in your tagset as you did not want to believe me.

No, you did not help Melekor with the hi res collection format as renders were not needed to code the feature. In fact, when you made the renders that you did, you did not want to upload them as you didn't trust that they would get taken and used by others. You asked for an even more private FTP to upload them and even then it seemed you did not upload much if at all. Nothing you uploaded was used by magma in the end. The drama repelled the desire most had to work on the hi res stuff.

Yes, you have posted about issues you have encountered, I never stated otherwise. Mixing said posts with subtle and not so subtle insults does not help, though. Playing with new features is not the same as testing. While you can find bugs while you play with them, you are more interested in using them than making sure they aren't broken, which is fine. The whole "tester extraordinaire" wasn't something I have ever called myself. That was the devs doing, not mine. Even you have asked me to test or debug certain things. I am no greater of a tester than anyone else, but you seem to think you are better than others. If so, you didn't need me to figure things out, and you wouldn't need to prove you are a "resource" to others.

No, I haven't been published. I have seen you claim to have been published by Bungie, but you are vague about it. I know in the total codex manual there is one mention of you. However, it was by the author of a map that got included in the total codex who was thanking you and other testers for their input. If that was it, then you didn't get published. Maybe you meant some other word other than publish.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 14 Mar 2013, 21:17

Without reading the last 2 above posts....

NO ghost what it means is that maybe seeking out help from people who have been actively testing and creating myth content since the LAST millennium would be a good idea. To make a higher quality product ya know, might be tad usefull.

You know, my favorite part of magma, is that I can make countless good suggestions, point our bugs and just in general, try to be helpfull and you guys dont pay any attention to me or say 1 word in response.

BUT THE SECOND you THINK I am being rude or slightly talking shit about anybody magma, O then you guys are fuking Johnny-On-The-Spot!

What does that say about you?

BTW nice job kicking a super nice guy off of Magma "Road" for absolutey no reason. O and great logic kicking ooga out because you guys dont like that he wont just let you spews lies all day long without calling you on it.

Umm yes ooga and I Did help melekor Pyro, Deal with it.

We helped him figure out how to set up stuff on his end. We talked about it few like 2 weeks strait on HL.

I also have had things that were bugs, fixed and added to the engine. Like TFL sprinting behaviour.

Your little check of forums posts, does not take into account anything said in e mails or on hotline
Mr. smarty pants.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 14 Mar 2013, 21:27

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... NJFq6VjHJI[/youtube]

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 14 Mar 2013, 21:37

You are often wrong pyro about many a great deal of things.

Lets see, any "Drama" about HD guys, was about 10 months after I left myth, I was gone almost the entire year of 2010. So you guys had plenty of time to use the HD stuff without me around to "stress anybody out" And what did you guys do? NOTHING! Yay its 2013 over 3 1/2 years later and STILL nothing from magma on this subject! ooga and I uploaded all the stuff we made with alias to the Magma FPT server as we said we would.

How long has Iron duke had the models BTW? Since 2003-2004? been a long fuking time Yo.

If magma really wants to be super nice to everybody in the myth community, then how about doing something, ANYTHING to fix or help the damned FW problem everybody has with myth?

And dont tell me its easy to port forward, because its not. I can do it on 8 our of 10 routers, but not everybody else can, and GUESS WHAT?!?! some rotuers wont let you do it! There is a REASON 90-95% of myth players CANT HOST! now please lets all group hug and share paeches together!

I dont want to keep posting about stupi drama and BS on these forums, I WILL LOSE MY FORUM FATTIE ICON SOON IF I MAKE TOO MANY POSTS!! AAAAAHHH! FATTIE!

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 14 Mar 2013, 22:11

Renwood wrote:If magma really wants to be super nice to everybody in the myth community, then how about doing something, ANYTHING to fix or help the damned FW problem everybody has with myth?

Read my series of posts at mariusnet for some more context on this:
http://www.mariusnet.com/ubbthreads.php ... #Post29740

TL/DR is either we need a new metaserver and a much higher bandwidth bill for it (and some added latency especially for overseas folks), or potentially IPv6, but the latter is an ISP systemic problem and doesn't seem to be moving at a lightning speed.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 15 Mar 2013, 04:02

Thanks for the info punkuser, I will check that out in detail.

It sounds like you are talking about dedicated servers, like some other games have.
That would be great, though it would require about 7 world wide to cover well, the world ~8^)

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 15 Mar 2013, 04:14

Renwood wrote: It sounds like you are talking about dedicated servers, like some other games have.
That would be great, though it would require about 7 world wide to cover well, the world ~8^)

Yes, effectively. We don't actually need to have the server run the game simulation though, we can just use the metaserver for routing packets (basically), but yeah, we pretty much need dedicated-server-style bandwith and servers throughout the world (unless people like to lag even when playing with local folks). It's not an easy problem for a situation with no infrastructure/income like ours.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 15 Mar 2013, 12:46

This is not my feild at all, but Would it be possible to make the Myth .exe work like most modern games to rout its incoming and outgoing networking? I have never played any other game online, where firewalls were an issue to host a game that others could join.
Really its not a firewall right? its the lack of port forwarding or something like the router brand wants you to use a static IP to host myth through its port?

It just seems that back when nobody had routers in the late 90s everybody could host myth. people were lucky to have 1 computer online back then, not multiple computers in 1 house running on 1 router like today.

I am not network programmer, but since every other game can host games, It would seem the myth .exe could be changed to function in that way as well or support a secondary type of netoworking as an option. Though how many man hours and testing it takes to do something like well is unknown to me.

What if we just had it like normal games that support dedicated servers?
Where I can start up a battlefield server and anybody can join it.

Then ONLY the stats could be sent to the meta server for stats tracking, and not the game play itself routed to the metaserver in real time like it sounds like you are talking about. I could imagine without much problem, there could be enough mythers in random places on the globe with an extra old computer laying around that could set up dedicated servers.

Like marius is the mothership and dedicated servers are the sattelites sending back the infromation only for stats tracking pourposes. You would see the games hosted on the dedicated servers on marius to join. Maybe one of the rooms in marius instead of ranked or tourny rooms is a dedicated server room. You can see servers and games running on servers, and you can choose a dedicated server from that room to host your own game on.

BTW if any of this is impossible without meta server changes from people unwilling to make changes to the code, then something like the open source Bungie.net code could be used.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 15 Mar 2013, 16:05

Renwood wrote:I have never played any other game online, where firewalls were an issue to host a game that others could join.

Heh, you haven't played a ton of games then, because it is an issue in many others, especially older ones. More "modern" games tend to be server-based and thus even if it says you are "hosting", you're really just choosing game settings and a remote server is doing it.

Renwood wrote: It just seems that back when nobody had routers in the late 90s everybody could host myth. people were lucky to have 1 computer online back then, not multiple computers in 1 house running on 1 router like today.

Correct, NAT routers are the issue, but as I explained in my mariusnet posts, port forwarding is the only really way to get around them if you want to host. Otherwise we need to make large changes to how the networking in Myth works.

Renwood wrote: What if we just had it like normal games that support dedicated servers?

That's basically just autohost with some UI changes. Could be made somewhat more streamlined but you have the issue that people can't play their own plugins. We don't need "dedicated" servers really for computation in Myth (it's very cheap/simple), we just need reliable network connections that aren't hidden behind NAT routers.

So yeah, there's no easy solution. All of them involve major client and metaserver changes, and most involved additional latency and bandwidth cost to some central providers, which is a tough proposition when everyone is volunteers.

dac · Post by **dac** » 15 Mar 2013, 16:15

Why dont you add a way to remotely set properties for autohost?

example, i'm a kind hearted soul who says go to website xyz and pick the options for the game, it modifies those settings somewhere and it sets the game to be that pick, then there's a neutral host for stuff. yes i know im insanely prone to be hacked or injected or whatever, so be it. is there a way you could put autohost settings in a file (or even game choice settings, i mean, myth is remembering it from somewhere) and provide an editable file to change these things?

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 15 Mar 2013, 17:42

dac wrote:Why dont you add a way to remotely set properties for autohost?

Yeah that's what I was alluding to with "stream-lining the UI'. You will still always have the issue that you can't use plugins that aren't on the host already, but if clients could set the settings it would increase the usefulness of autohost somewhat (although how to fairly decide who gets control is an open question). Mostly improvements to autohost haven't been made because it's somewhat of a messy feature in the code-base and not easy to modify without re-implementing a fair bit of it.

The advantage we have going for us is that hosting myth takes practically zero CPU, especially if we can disable rendering. Thus a single decent connection could run dozens of server instances if desired.

I will note some hesitation in going that route though vs. the metaserver route in that I've been prototyping some other metaserver stuff as well that would tie in naturally with metaserver routing.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 15 Mar 2013, 23:27

Yea being able to change the settings on an auto host would be really awesome.

Maybe like, an option for the person that first hosted the autohost to allow the first person to join it when its empty to be able to set up wich map and other game settings.

People who start the auto hosts, could just check 1 or 2 times a moth to update it with new plugins.
That would be really great if we had this, damn think of the possibilities!

The option to render nothing on the hosts side would be a great feature punkuser!

dac · Post by **dac** » 16 Mar 2013, 00:31

a person being first in the room could be some event captured that changed the pw to something random, and then the autohost would msg that person.

also, include a setting that allows that person to choose how many people or what % of people have to be ready for the game to start.

putting stuff that already exists from memory into files, wow, even a tard like melekor could program that.

Pyro · Post by **Pyro** » 17 Mar 2013, 22:13

tl;dr = Not exactly accurate, Renwood. Hopefully you don't get all bothered about this post.

It feels like I am walking on eggshells whenever I have to explain something to you, Renwood. Not once did I insult or attack you (in the earlier posts or this one), yet you get all defensive and offensive towards me. I did not post because you were rude to anyone, or I would have posted months ago. Ghost was giving out the wrong information. I figured I'd step in and clear that up for both of you so he knows your issue was something else and so others don't think persistent ready is somehow broken.

When I mentioned drama about the hi res stuff, I didn't say the drama you caused. Others can cause drama or stress people out, too. If you really did help with the hi res collection format, you would have known how to use that feature. You gave Mel stuff he could use to test with, perhaps is what you meant. Helping with those things is not the same as helping with the new collection >>format<<. This is what you stated that I was correcting you on, not about you helping in general. I'm not against you stating what you did or did not do, just that you don't state something that was not true. What I said about your posts was in reply to your comment about them. I never said you didn't give feedback in other ways, just that your comment about your countless private tester posts wasn't accurate.

About the whole Iron/Ooga Watcher stuff, ever thought both of them were wrong or right instead of one being right and not the other? There was more than one watcher collection based on Iron's model, so both likely ambered it without remembering or knowing about the other. Ooga was probably thinking of one while Iron of another. Iron didn't ban to cover up anything. If you check out the posts about it you can see he made a little joke about it ("I'll expect a royalty cheque") and let it go. A few days later you insult him causing him to lock the thread. You then create the "LOL Iron!" thread to insult him some more. It wasn't until that thread that ooga tells his side of things while being rude. Looking back on it, it looks like you instigated the situation and got ooga banned. Iron is an easy going guy, if you were to have kindly disagreed or even say "oops, sorry, you mind if we use it?" he would have said to go for it.

Yes, magma has had the models for years, and long ago some were re-rendered in a higher resolution and used in some plugins back then. You can't expect a bunch of programmers that have no real interest in them to do something with them just because someone else wants them to. Besides the models are rather incomplete and need lots of attention that no one really wants to give them. I think it is enough that they code, no need for them to be artists as well.

It doesn't matter that Road or Ooga are not in Magma, they didn't seem to care about being in it to begin with. They didn't lose anything from this and Magma just didn't want to be linked with your project. It was through ooga that you got a hold of the models, Magma didn't want something similar to happen through Road.

Besides none of that had anything to do with what we were talking about, its not like it was something I was involved with. It only takes one person that feels strongly about something to boot/ban. If no one else strongly disagrees, nothing is done to undo it.