milk man ffa pack, does it need an update?

[Zak]

noticed some annoying bugs like wiggly ball for stb, or broken dwarven knaves on dwarf riot. How many of you want to see it get updated?

[par73]

ill only play it if zak updates it

[adrenaline]

all the maps should have just be left in their original form... i.e. sleepy hollow and titus groan... unit trades were changed... were much better before.

[c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊]

There will be a new version before next fall's ffa league. Most maps will revert to OG trades, though a few zak trades will be retained or altered, especially where they replace flawed UTs like on River of Life.

[Zak]

Can you explain how the old trade was better?

I saw no reason to add them to the pack unless I was going to make them different somehow.

[adrenaline]

specifically, i was referring to Sleepy Hollow (dark), which had locks/fetch and you replaced with dwarven bottlers. I think the mellee was different too. It was very balanced the way it was before... used to 1v1 it a lot with Shai... the original trade was great. Titus.. the poison arrows were a nice twist.

[Zak]

Okay what if you help me come up with a different but still good trade for sleepy hollow, and I can bring poison arrow archers into the plugin and put them on various maps?

[adrenaline]

just use the original unit trades on those 2 maps! as for poison arrows on other maps... don't do that! they've always been a part of titus groan... but I wouldn't like them much on any other map.

[Zak]

What is special about titus groan that only it can have poison arrows? I could imagine them being useful on some maps where archers are weak or flame arrows aren't useful.

I don't understand why only one trade is acceptable for these two maps you're referring to. Is it nostalgia? Or you want other players to enjoy titus groan and sleepy hollow for the same reasons you do? Not attacking you, just not sure why putting in a new trade for this map is not okay.

[adrenaline]

Has nothing to do with nostalgia or anything.... I see no problem with fixing bugs and stuff, but changing unit trades is pretty drastic... at that point you may as well be changing the name of the map. If you insist on changing the units, rename it or make it a new variant, but include the original in the map pack... i.e. for the sleepy hollow with the new units... call it something like Sleepy Hollow (dark alternative) or something.

[Zak]

There will be a new version before next fall's ffa league. Most maps will revert to OG trades, though a few zak trades will be retained or altered, especially where they replace flawed UTs like on River of Life.

who's going to make the new version?

Grave diggers is so fucked up in this new one I think it warrants an update.

[Renwood]

Adren Wrote:
All the maps should have just be left in their original form... i.e. sleepy hollow and titus groan... unit trades were changed... were much better before.

My name is Ren Fucking Wood and I approve this MESSAGE!

To see great maps with great unit trades THEN get replaced with new whacky trades, and have this be the only time they get played, makes me cry myself to sleep at night.
zak do not mess with what the map's creators intended on a map and its unit trade.
Put strange trades on a map, sure maybe, but make sure to include the original trades as well.
Also, your color blinds people every time you play.

[Zak]

The majority of the unit trades I've altered were horrible before I touched them. The legitimately good maps that had good unit trades that I added to the plugin, I added due to people requesting it. I don't see why people would want to play sleepy hollow or titus groan on my plugin if its the exact same version as the original.

If you would like to go into detail about how my trades are whacky, you are more than welcome to. This has been addressed and defended by others, so I know I'm not the only one who appreciates the fresh unit trade variants offered in this plugin.

Some ideas I'm proud of putting into the plugin:

• Allowing players to buy 2 heron guards as well as a jman, instead of just 2 jmen, on light maps.
• Putting soulless on River of Life instead of archers, as well as allowing ghasts as well as thrall to be bought.
• The dwarven bottlers on the indoor battle of Stoneheart, as well as the interesting melee pack hybrid that occurs when you can buy warriors/ghasts/thrall/jmen/2 myrks. I do not believe the 2 myrks to be unbalanced, as they can be easily frozen by ghasts or blown up by a couple of dwarf bottles.
• Light maps where you get thrall elite, and heron packs. Thrall elite vs heron guards are good fights. Also added a thrall elite portrait!
• Unarmed soulless ghasts, aka minions. I have heard complaints that they are unbalanced, however I see them die from 2-3 arrows/melee strikes and they have to be constantly micro'd to turn the tide in a melee fight. They are an interesting counter to soulless, yet weaker in that regard than spiders due to their weaker hit. They also make forest giants and trow less of a threat. Excellent rush defense as well.
• Frost warlocks. Complain about them all you want, but they fit in quite well in the myth universe. Fetch shoot lightning, warlocks shoot fireballs, wights explode in a cloud of poison gas, why can't a wizard lob a giant icicle at the enemy? He will lose in a fight against a warlock or fetch 9 out of 10 times, and is not nearly as effective against archers as they are. His only strengths are when he is on a hill (increased range due to the parabola nature of his attack), and that his attack freezes enemies that are near where it lands. His attacks are easily avoided by scattering, and his defensive spell does not do nearly the damage a fire-circle does. They are a great anti-rush unit, and also make forest giants way less of a threat. I would love to see this unit in MWC some day.
• Skeletons and myrmidons. I've had no complaints about myrmidons, as they were already a staple of TFL and many 3rd party plugins used in myth 2 tournaments. However I pride myself on the interesting ways I've incorporated them into my unit trades. It is not often you see myrmidons and myrkridia fight a forest giant while they all get zapped by fetch. Skeletons have received many complaints, although mostly for over-saturation. I see skeletons as the light version of the myrmidon. When you compare berserks and myrmidons, you see many similarities to the warrior/skeleton dynamic. Skeletons make rushing easier, and are capable of a deadly ambush via sinking. However they are one of the most fragile melee units, blowing up from a single dwarf bottle, and losing to everything but a ghol or ghast in a melee fight. They are easily assimilated into myth and I don't understand the complaints about these guys. Pretty sure they've been in a couple MWC matches as well.
• Ghosts. Particularly dwarven and heron guard ghosts. The reason for placing ghost dwarves on maps was to lessen the strength of a rush, since they can't be pussed. The weakness in this unit is they also can't be healed. This also applies to ghost archers. I think that makes for interesting myth play. Then the heron guard ghost, was an idea I liked because it was easier than just using herons without heals. Also they can run over deep water making them a threat to soulless.

[Renwood]

Well to me zak the "killer app" of the zak packs is getting just 1 plugin and having a ton of cool maps in it to choose from, so people do not have to hunt down each and every map so they dont miss out on a lot of games.

I know the trade you took away on raisin barn 2 was liked by everybody who played it before, and thus did not need to be replaced.

[Zak]

Let us look at the new and old raisin barn trade:

New:
2/3 dwarves
1/2 myrkridia
6/12 ghols
8/12 thrall
1/1 jmen
1/2 wights
10/15 ghasts
1 untradeable HGH

Lack of archers creates emphasis on dwarf battles in the urban environment of Raisin Barn. The 2 myrkridia and 1 HGH creates a melee pack similar to Killing Grounds, but weaker. Rightfully so, since only 3 dwarves are allowed, but that also increases the importance of dwarves on this map. One might think its easy to rush, with all these fast units and only 3 dwarves allowed. However, if that HGH is killed before it can take out the dwarves, you're going to have a hell of a time trying to mop up those thrall/ghasts with your ghols/myrks, even with 4 pus. In a LMOTH or KOTH setting, this causes battles similar to slugfest, except you have more threats than just a bouncing dwarf bottle.

Old:
2/4 dwarves
4/6 bowmen
8/12 warriors
12/18 thrall
1/1 jmen
0/2 wights
4/6 ghols


One could argue that neither trade is bad, they are just different. You will notice that there are probably ZERO unedited maps in the plugin. In almost every single map I am trying to force players to play myth in a new way, that makes them think hard about how to approach the game.

[adrenaline]

Those dwarves that have a mellee attack from a mile away are retarded. Don't remember what they are called... I think it's on Chaos? Surely you didn't think that was a good idea.

[c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊]

the "killer app" of the zak packs is getting just 1 plugin and having a ton of cool maps in it to choose from, so people do not have to hunt down each and every map so they dont miss out on a lot of games.

This.

[Zak]

Those dwarves that have a mellee attack from a mile away are retarded. Don't remember what they are called... I think it's on Chaos? Surely you didn't think that was a good idea.

Thats a bug. It is also on a non-reg variant, called dwarf riot. If you play that with somebody, just agree not to buy the knaves.