Deadhold

[adrenaline]

Controls - Yeah we're running controls that are pretty close to myth right now (kindof a mmo myth hybrid camera), but we'll probably try out a range of variations, and or give players configurability, with some presets.

Configurability would be amazing. Would love to be able to use all 5 buttons on my gaming mouse without relying on macros.

[Renwood]

Punk I thought it was just touch on windows x86 win 8 tablets as shown in the video you speak of. Not the full version of windows 8 with like a 32 inch monitor! WOO! Sounds pretty sexy.

[Pyro]

Windows 8 (x86) is a full version of Windows just like Windows 8 (x64). You are confusing Windows RT with Windows 8. Myth does not run on Windows RT tablets. (Just as the Myth II Help file states in the multi-touch section.)

[drunken_deer]

it isnt myth 4, and there needs to be some sort of demo/beta access if I am going to have the slightest interest.

[adrenaline]

if you'd bother to read anything, you'd realize this is in it's infancy, and they are working on getting a playable beta out there for us... idiot. and no one gives a fuck if you have the slightest interest.

[wwo]

drunken ~ make it Myth 4 or I am not interested

[drunken_deer]

if you'd bother to read anything, you'd realize this is in it's infancy, and they are working on getting a playable beta out there for us... idiot. and no one gives a fuck if you have the slightest interest.

Nobody gives a fuck either that you quoted me just to reply that I have the slightest interest.

[par73]

drunken just did exactly what he's complaining to adren for
is the whole island like that? how did they ever evolve past aborigine status? one may ponder. in the world of myth, australia is native to the wolves and bre unor

[adrenaline]

the funny part is that i never even quoted him...

now back on topic... this should be Deadhold discussion ONLY.

[killerking]

Good thing you're going for a pc/mac game and not a console game.
Also, I agree with the macro's - they'd be great.
However, I do like the fact that you can micromanage your melee in myth, as well as your artillery/archer fights... It makes the game more complex and thus (for me) more interesting.

[Renwood]

They just posted a new video on youtube.

[shadow]

Hey all,

Some answers to comments and questions:

par73
Myth lobby - Myth would be our baseline, and we have yet to put a lot of thought into the design yet.
Controls - Yeah we're running controls that are pretty close to myth right now (kindof a mmo myth hybrid camera), but we'll probably try out a range of variations, and or give players configurability, with some presets.

shadow
Myth Lobby - By all means explore that. Like I said we don't have a definitive design. It's pretty interesting that the industry generally went with matchmaking, cutting out a huge social aspect. Presumably this is because consoles are the predominant platform for multiplayer FPS, and the sheer numbers of people aren't conducive to meaningful conversation. So, if Deadhold did have a myth-like lobby, or something akin to IRC, how could we keep it manageable? Would people like matchmaking as well?

More chances for comebacks - I think this is something that our ability and relic system will address, but we haven't gone into that much yet.
Tourney and stats - Yes, that's pretty much assumed.

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊
More complex fighting system - Yes the abilities and relic system extends unit capabilities through the commander, additionally the units will have vastly more choreography and personality, react to their environment etc. This is all possible because we have the power of polygons, skelletal meshes, Inverse Kinematics and behaviour trees.

shadow: Consoles, tablets, etc - fun discussion time!

Deadhold will be PC/Mac/Linux. We went through similar discussions, but it essentially boils down to a few factors:

1) PC gaming is back, with a vengeance. (thankfully) Steam is dominant, and extremely profitable.

2) Making a PC game, and a tablet or console game is making 2 or three games. RTT on a console sounds like (to put it nicely) a nightmare. Tablet _could_ work very well, but again the tempo and response will never match a PC, and pitting someone on a tablet, vs a PC in an MP match would be pretty one sided.

3) In my opinion, multiplayer on mobile isn't mature enough, or a strong enough demographic within mobile. The only time someone might want to run an MP match on a tablet would be on the couch, certainly not the usual use case, where people pull out a phone for 5 minutes outside while waiting for a sandwich. There's a reason why the average game/level time on mobile is easily in the single digits of minutes.

I always imagined that Myth was similar to playing a piano, and I always loved it when I felt like I was "in the zone". Its hard for me to imagine any other input than a mouse and keyboard achieving that. We do like money (its useful), but I think part of getting to the "money hats" level (imho) is knowing where a game's strengths lie, and on what platforms it shines brightest.

I'll throw out some other random high level ideas/categories:

Persistence, Progression, Skins and Armor (cosmetic), Custom cheers/taunts, Different and more complex behavior, chaining orders to units (walk along this spline, attack this unit with harassing behavior), unique attacks for specific units against others, ragdolls, different unit abilities and ways for them to interact with each other, landscapes can now be fully 3d, castle sieges, different gamemodes.

That said, the gameplay should remain simple, but deep, we're not trying to clutter up gameplay, we're sifting for the nuggets that will truely enhance the gameplay.

-fisj - (fisj@deadhold.com)

Great !
I like your way.
Gotta share my thoughts soon.

[shadow]

it isnt myth 4, and there needs to be some sort of demo/beta access if I am going to have the slightest interest.

go fuck yourself mad retarded aussie
srsly
wat a cunt

[fisj]

Hey all,

We've begun the Steam Greenlight process, and need your help voting to get Deadhold approved.

Vote here:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =315297927

For those not familiar, steam greenlight is a voting process where the community votes on their favorite games. The more votes a game gets, the more quickly the project is approved.

We're begining the process now, because it can take months to accumulate the votes to be greenlit. We're hoping to get there sooner.

Yes votes with your steam account are very much appreciated! Thanks all!

- fisj

[adrenaline]

voted yes... i'm sure everyone here will do the same. I'll post something about it in my clan forum from another game I play... should be able to get several more votes for you

[Myrk]

1) What are your top 3 Myth features - essential core parts that make Myth, Myth.

2) What ways can we improve Myth? Imagine you're Bungie sitting and watching Braveheart eating pizza, and you find yourself in 2014 with computers that are 100 times faster - what crazy ass things would you design now that you're not facing the same technological limitations?

1. The high skill cap for microing units in fights - the environment making all the difference in fights (height affecting projectiles, water affecting dwarves, etc) - the unit trading system

2. - Pus in myth is pretty overpowered, I think they had the right idea in Myth 3 when they nerfed the damage and kept the paralysis the same. Everyone maxes pus on every map with very few exceptions.
- Get rid of duds. They're one of the worst features in Myth. I'm talking about the random chance of a pus or dwarf bottle dudding every time it's thrown, not dwarf bottles hitting water and going out. Basically turns the game into a luckfest.
- Make melee fighting a bit less clumpy. TFL melee fighting was more interesting to watch than Myth. If it's possible to have TFL style melee without all the horrible pathfinding and moonwalking that would be great.
- Default camera/formations that are actually useable. Maybe have the ability to edit formations built into the game with a little screen that shows what different values will actually look like in the game.

[adrenaline]

I fully endorse Myrk's suggestions.

[adrenaline]

Am assuming the units will have the same kind of speed:power ratio as Myth? Would also be cool to see slower moving artillery units have a (weak) secondary attack, like bowmen being able to stab. Would be cool to see dwarves (or your equivalent) having such an ability.

[wwo]

If we're going to talk about units specifically, I think the whole idea of ranged units being universally slower than melee units is utter bullshit and needs to be dropped asap. Make movement speed entirely based on the unit's equipment (assuming same physicality; obviously dwarves are going to have a speed disadvantage against humans). Give all ranged units a setup time after moving. Make armor more protective versus its movement penalty. The power:speed ratio needs to be balanced in unit cost or availability, not unrealistic/unintuitive attribute nerfs.

[par73]

if you copy all the moves but rename the characters is it considered copyright infringement?

it'd be very interesting if take 2 took notice to this, maybe they would drop an offer on the myth series for the deadhold gang and they can recreate myth itself.

who's the secret unknown deadhold staff? personally I hope it's martin o'donnell and he brings his score to a near remake of his original classic. the seige of madrigal showing up in the campaign was a halo cult hit

myrk, adren and wwo raise great points.
all we saw from the game itself was an alpha, i think secondary attacks and all the other goodies come much later in development

@wwo, wouldn't units who carry armor have more muscle and therefore be faster?
no comment on zerks or trow, but archers looked like weak peasants who joined alrics army and said hey i wanna keep my distance (not fit bros like hadiez or karma). firbolg were manlier (and faster as well?)

i am wondering about the particles in other environments (not just winter snow) as well as releasing programs which can create and edit maps to the public? will said features make their inclusion into the release?

#1 key aspect of myth: films

[wwo]

Archers took a shitload of training to be effective. But I don't care about lore or history influence. What I want is the base soldier to be standardized (per race, if necessary), then have equipment loadouts modify the attributes.

generically speaking, on a 1-10 scale for 'tribs:

human
speed 5, charge/flee 8
melee skill 5
melee strength 5 (so they're the baseline for other races, etc)
range skill 5

equipment
plate mail (not full "knight" armor), +x health (or damage reduction, or whatever), -y movement, -z stamina
etc

[switch]

deformable terrain


Also, I agree with Kirk. Anything that trades verisimilitude for "graphics" is a waste of time.

For example, I still play Close Combat II in its revamped aspects (Last Stand Arnhem). Likewise, note the failure of Harpoon 3 and the ongoing survival of Harpoon II (currently developed by Matrix games as Ultimate Edition or something).

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlMVEvNlvBo[/youtube]

You'll notice a pattern here which is that before "graphics" came to dominate the game industry with legions of graphics artists joining the workforce one actually had to make a game that was compelling to play as Lod has recently observed. It's extraordinarily sad to hear things from people like Myrk and Adrenaline to the effect that:

Get rid of duds. They're one of the worst features in Myth. I'm talking about the random chance of a pus or dwarf bottle dudding every time it's thrown, not dwarf bottles hitting water and going out. Basically turns the game into a luckfest.

Duds are hugely important and I can only imagine that you'd be better off playing checkers if you think chance events and randomness should be removed from a game. I understand your position, which is that you've played myth to death and no longer derive any pleasure from actually playing the game. You feel that duds prejudice your ability to win which is more important to you than the actual playing of the game for its own sake. I feel sorry for you.

[adrenaline]

I also strong suggest you ignore anything that the following wind-bags have to say:

Switch

[Myrk]

Duds are great if you're a crappy player who wants bullshit wins.

[switch]

You two have grown intolerably predictable. Just like the myth without randomness that you advocate. Coincidence?

[shadow]

My top 3 features ? hhmm, tough to explain in english, but I try

1. "Flow"

- Smoothness/oraganic/speed of every unit movement.
Players hate M3 "flow", and players dont like motion interpolation in M2.
Thats basic of all basics. Nobody can play game if "flow" bad.
I enjoy watching M2 game, even just watching.
Deadhold, currently, have problem with "flow".

- Unit control/camera control/map
Presets, amount of keys for controlling (MYTH has big amount and that's good), mouse movements etc
Good, skilled players have great unit/camera/map control and get best from units they got. And bad players die horrible due to misclicks, tunnel vision, bad fromations etc. There must be default/simple and advanced tunning system in game.
Easy to learn, hard to master.

2. Balance

- unit trading system
Cost of units ( in points) and they power rating/abilities + enviroment pretty much dictate gameplan.
(cheap fetches, cheap MG's, arty on venice, etc)

- units speed
Disagree with Wwo cause balance > realism (its game, not realistic simulator)
I like M2 balance here and agree with Adren, about secondary attack for slow, range units (arcs/dorfs etc).

- puss dilemma
Must be option in game. For pro players and tourneys - no duds and for derps/casual - duds.

- melee fights/moonwalking
Tough question. Personally, disagree with Myrk and Adren.
We rly need more pro opinions (starting with GKG).

And a lot of other question.

3. Сompetitive spirit

If Flow and Balance are great, you will get a lot players and here the story will begin.

- stats/ranks/clans/tourneys
In any competitive sport, game or w/e u need to have advanced statistics.
If you have great data base u can make good, accurate rating (rank) and make many thousands good players (fags) happy.
Sure u need clan system, cause that is a human nature.
And offcourse everybody need advanced Tourney system (built in-game or something), cause tourneys keep game going.
The soul still burns. Ass too.

- films, TA's, analysis, articles
How u can imagine competitive game w/o all of this ?!
That is pretty entertainment and big (if not biggest) part of game culture.

- modernation
Yea. Fuck OM and fuck all om-wannabe.
Actually, modernation politic is a big deal.
I call for minimum moderantion and letting all weak, sensitive, little dick bastards play in they own sandbox.
Dont ban anyone, dont mute anyone, etc.
Here must be personal options for sensitive players to avoid Kirks in Deadhold.

[Myrk]

You two have grown intolerably predictable. Just like the myth without randomness that you advocate. Coincidence?

I'm fine with bottles randomly exploding instantly, bouncing a bit then exploding, and generally not being predictable but guaranteed to at least go off. It'd be boring if it did the exact same thing every time. Good players can work with unpredictable explosion times, duds however are just stupid.
Maybe you like getting a perfect pus shot off on a clump of warriors only to have it dud, an enemy ghol picks it up, and then you have to worry about another pus...well I'm sure they can make a mod for that.

[adrenaline]

A dud once in a while is tolerable... but i've too often seen the same puss dud 2+ times in a row, a dorf multiple times in a row, etc... and that is just bullshit. Especially if it happens in a tourney or something... a game should not be decided by chance bullshit bad luck.

[dac]

predictable leads to skill being generated in a game, if you like dumb luck and pure chance then i suggest you pick up a copy of candyland from target, or go buy a pack of cards and play war.

just let the pus behave the same way every time. same with explosives. isnt that why everybody likes m2 duffs so much better than tfl duffs?

[Gehennom]

It seems to me that one of the great strengths of Myth is that it allows for a variety of play styles. If you like duds, you can play maps with dwarves, and if you don't, you can choose to play maps with fetch or Warlocks instead. Or trade for other units. You have options if you don't like how certain units work. A lot of folks only rarely played maps with trow or with warlocks.

About archer speed: consider a map where the units you can trade for are arcs, thrall, and ghols. Do you prefer the tactical options here to vanilla Myth? I think most of us wouldn't.

Also:"everybody likes m2 duffs so much better than tfl duffs?" *Everybody* most certainly does not. I'd argue that the existence if the tfl mechanics mod is evidence that at least some other folks agree with me. I feel like tfl dwarves already had plenty of power, plus enough of a threat to push around, slow down, or zone out opposing forces, and that plus the additional range, power, and reliability felt op for 6 points in the context of light maps.

[killerking]

I like the fact that dwarves have a certain predictable range but in some cases may prolong their range by bouncing. Also, I have been frustrated some times by duds - but in the end, I consider this to be part of the game and eventually (if you think about it) it increases the amount of fun you have, as it's hilarious to see how one dud can suddenly make someone panic. Also, as duds are completely random their effect on the amount of games you win will balance out (sometimes you win due to duds of other players, sometimes you lose bc of your own duds).
Also, duds are also important in maps without water and with ghols - you need them to be able to create puss/dud bombs. You can use duds when you run out of satchels - just spam some ground and eventually you'll get a dud. This could give someone a tactical advance.
So, in conclusion, I think duds should stay.

[par73]

you can also extend dwarf range with an auto attack on a unit that walks momentarily in range of an auto attack throw, and then turns to face the opposite direction.

i like tfl duffs for different reasons than i like the m2 duffs.

however if it came down to a clutch moment, i'd rely more on the m2 duffs

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oETADzYpmyg?t=8m34s[/youtube]
8 min 34 seconds
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxyIhl__n0I[/youtube]

sadly the words have been taken from this review

http://www.mythgaming.net/mwc2006/review.php?id=16

[Renwood]

Yes I know a lot of people that like the TFL phgysics for dorfs and bottles a lot more then myth 2's
In myth 2, dorfs are overpowered, Myth 2 fetch are also overpowered where they can shoot OVER a giant blob of their own guys blocking them. In TFL the fetch need to have a clean line of fire, as if their own guys were in the way, they would blast through them killing em. Fetch took more skill to use in that way. Having randomness brings life to the organic battlefields of myth.

The fact is, nobody played the GKG tagset even though it has all the anti-randomness stuff in it they suggest, like no duds. Which proves most the community has no interest in such things.

The guys really into "skill" (i.e. anti randomness) just hate the idea there are things in war beyond their control.
Myth at its core is a gritty fantasy battlefield simulator.

[drunken_deer]

Playing Wasteland II, Praise or condemn deadhold all you like but im not holding my breath for a game not even 1/100th complete

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZtU2U4rLFA[/youtube]

[ska]

sadly the words have been taken from this review

Here you go parpar
http://web.archive.org/web/201202291315 ... .php?id=16

[Cutard]

There's skill in reacting/adjusting appropriately to seemingly random but not unusual events, you see it in many pro sports. I personally always felt duds, melee wiffing, pus bounces, etc added more to Myth that other games lacked and seemed stale in comparison. It's certainly a fine line where an exceeding amount of randomness is awful, especially in a competitive environment, but I think Myth is pretty close.

Pus is overpowered, but a direct hit on a dwarf should always gib that fucker. I think I would check out lowering the area effect of pus before anything else, having 1/4th of your melee frozen is still a huge disadvantage.

Having fetch more like TFL is a good idea with perhaps even more nerfs; they completely dominate any map they are on even with trow.

Melee could certainly be reworked to encourage more microing.

[adrenaline]

Agreed with Cu about the mellee microing for sure...

Would be cool to have an array of attack options with mellee... i.e. click = attack all units, shift+click = attack of one unit type, shift+dbl click = attack single unit. Or something like that... options!

Would be cool for bowmen, or "Rangers", to have similar options, too. We actually had a long discussion about this a year or so ago... would be cool to be able to launch arrows at a group of units instead of just targeting a single unit, while still having the option to target the single units (again, something like click vs. shift+click.

[switch]

The fact is, nobody played the GKG tagset even though it has all the anti-randomness stuff in it they suggest, like no duds

As someone who helped playtest the gkg tagset I think it's only fair to point out that it changes much much more than just randomness. The entire flow, as shadow put it, is greatly accelerated. I would describe the tagset as a "pro" version, similar to major league gaming in halo, for example. Certainly worth your time if you haven't checked it out, or want something with a little more edge to it regarding online myth play.

Indeed, some features that I think are perfectly reasonable are included such as nerfed pus and points value changes.

That said, I'm glad these changes are in a tagset rather than the core game.

More in depth melee control as advocated by adrenaline and cu sounds very reasonable and could really expand the clutch aspects of the game. I also like adrenalines suggestions regarding artillery fire control.

For renwood and the other old hands, I'm curious why you think bungie went overboard on over powered artillery in myth 2. Was this just over compensation for how unbalanced melee was in tfl?

[Renwood]

I did like the point values changes in the GKG tagset. The anti randomness stuff I was not a fan of, but it had some other good ideas in it.

Bungie said over and over again that they wanted to make myth 2 "more easily accessible to new players" Also talking about Myth 2's new mouse camera controls and F6 unit abilities bar to make it so people could play myth 1 handed.

I think part of making myth easier for the masses was to make missile based units a lot more of the gameplay focus.
Just like how in Myth 2 they removed a HUGE amount of randomness from what TFL gameplay physics was like.

Myth 1 = Melee based, more random physics and objects/events
Myth 2 = Missle based, less random physics and objects/events

[fisj]

Deadhold hit first playable alpha last night, and we put up a vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmPzEI2R2co&app=desktop

Whats new? Pretty much everything.

1) We rewrote everything with shiny new c++ for all our core systems. These are the solid foundations we'll be building everything on top of.
2) We popped in still temporary, but much better alpha art.
3) Gameplay is still baseline myth-like, and we haven't even started looking at balance, but the core combat systems (attacks and counter attacks etc etc) are in and we'll start iterating on units from here on out.

Big thanks for the discussions above. I didn't reply, but I did take notes and the chat about randomness was particularly helpful. Anyway, thoughts appreciated, and we'll keep you posted on our progress!

Thanks!

-fisj

[toxyn]

I tried to vote on Steam a few weeks ago but got some kind of error. Is there any other way I can support this project?

[fisj]

toxyn ... very odd. I checked the page, seems to work fine on this end. Here's the direct link:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... =315297927

Let me know if you still have problems.

The current plan is to run a free public alpha test. Iteration is going to be a huge part of development of this game, and we're pretty excited. We'll have more info on that a bit later.

-fisj

[c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊]

Those arrows look pretty hard to dodge, you're not taking out ninja archer micro are you?!

[toxyn]

@fisj -- I got it to work, the voting form was being broken by a firefox plugin (https everywhere)

best of luck to you guys

[DBSeeker]

Fisj is legit. IMHO, the second best Myth mapmaker behind the guy who did Lichen.

I would love it if you can do another map like Torpindium for multiplayer.

[fisj]

@toxyn - Glad you got it to work. Thanks for the vote!
@c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ - Nope, they're really easy to dodge, and no plans to remove that.
@ DBSeeker - Wow, that's a blast from the past. Hrm, now I need to add teleport functionality to the list. You're right, Lichen was badass and gorgeous.

-fisj

[BIG KROK V8 SS]

LOL WTF TOX

[MadBeka]

On greenlight steam page is says "Release date: Early 2015".

Is that enough time to make a game like this or is this release date for "early access" or will there be "early access" in the first place?

I really hope you take your time and and have this game thoroughly tested by hardcore Myth players. (I don't consider myself a harcore myth player :p but might become hardcore Deadholder if it's at least as half as good as Myth I&II)

[fisj]

Don't worry, the release date refers to Early Access Multiplayer. We're going to be running a free public MP alpha well before EA too. Single player is planned, but we've decided to focus on MP->MPCoop->SP/Coop, in that order. Single player is a tonne of work, and is best developed once all the classes have been built, balanced and hammered on by a community in MP. Needless to say, its a ways off.

-fisj

[Myrk]

Someone should host a kickball tournament for this game when it goes public.