GKG Tagset

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 27 Feb 2013, 08:54

We are now ready to release the first stable version of this tagset.

The GKG Tagset can be downloaded at Zak's udog folder (Zak's betas folder), linked below:

http://hl.udogs.net/files/Uploads/%20Us ... gsetv1.zip

Special thanks to Zak for doing all the work in putting this together. He came up with some really creative solutions to some problems we ran into, and tapped into the magma guys when needed to solve problems that surprisingly haven't been addressed ever before in 15 years of this game.

Also thanks to wwo for helping to test and providing good feedback and support. Thanks to Dantski for the idea to remove the Myrk Giant throw. Thanks to Myrk for the idea of removing duds but keeping bounces. Thanks to others who helped test, and gave their feedback and support.

Full complete patch notes as of version 1 (changes based off of values from standard myth):

-Brigands now only cost 1 point (instead of 2) and have 25% reduced hit points.
-Bre'Unor now only cost 2 points (instead of 4)
-Fetch now cost 10 points (instead of 6)
-Dwarven heroes now cost 10 points (instead of 8)
-Trow now cost 30 points (instead of 24)
-Forest Giants now cost 30 (instead of 24)
-Myrk Giants now cost 22 points (instead of 32) and no longer have their ranged throw special attack ability.
-Heron Guards now cost 4 points (instead of 3)
-Heron Guard Heroes now cost 14 points (instead of 8)
-Myrkridia now cost 5 points (instead of 4)
-Wights now cost 5 points (instead of 3) and have 25% increased movement speed (slightly slower than an archer, similar to ghast movement speed) and 25% increased health.
-Dwarves, Dwarven heroes, and Dwarven mortars now all have a stabbing melee attack which works identically to the archer stabbing attack.
-All manner of duds (pus, mortar, and bottles) have been removed entirely (chances to bounce remain unchanged).
-Chance for dwarves to drop lit or unlit bottles upon a "soft death" has been removed entirely.

Sidenote -Myrms were briefly altered but then those changes were deemed unnecessary and then undone. So I just want to reiterate that myrmidons are completely unchanged. They are the same as they have always been before.

Some potential considerations for future changes:
-Having Myrk Giants go insane like regular Myrkridia (if we can get it working properly). Idea courtesy of Renwood.
-Possible slight trading point increase of like 5 points across the board on all maps to help compensate for some of the trading point cost increases which could cause less units to be available.
-Possible tweaks in trading point values to Trow, Forest Giants, Myrk Giants, and Heron Guard Heroes pending further testing by the community.
-Possible tweaks to wights pending further testing by the community.
-Any other tweaks pending further feedback based on testing done by the community.

Zak let me know if I am forgetting anything.

I will try to get some games going with the new tagset in the coming weeks, everyone should feel free to try it out for yourself though.

I also want to reiterate that while I understand some people are not going to like some or all of these changes, that any such feedback will be taken a lot more seriously if you actually try playing it and base your feedback on real game play experience as opposed to preconceived notions in your own mind that were never actually tested or played. I really recommend everyone just have an open mind about it and then just try it out for a few games for yourself. Do your own testing if you want. If you do that then I will be interested to hear what you have to say.

And worse comes worse, if you have absolutely nothing constructive to contribute on the subject, then just don't play it, and allow the rest of us that do enjoy it to have our fun. As far as I'm concerned, if just one person has some fun with it briefly which brought something new to them in the game after 15 years playing it, then this tagset is a success.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 27 Feb 2013, 09:32

dwarves no longer randomly drop lit bottles upon death

pus packets have a wight gas aura around them until picked up. Can obstruct view, but also makes it very clear when a pus has been left behind.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 27 Feb 2013, 13:38

You guys going to set up any times for people to gather and test?

Looking good GKG! Allthough I believe the randomness of Myth is an integral part of the gameplay itself and its universe, I will not rain on the parade of others that wish to have fun with your new GKG plugin and partake of this new "Sterile" myth style gameplay.

Maybe I will never have to bitch about how Myrk Giants are the most haxor lame Bungie created unit ever again on Raid! ( Damnit bungie, the fastest unit on the map with the most health has unlimited multiple grenades it can throw at further distances then ANY of the other missle units on the map can even shoot, AND the MG can just toss, run away toss run away, toss = WTF BUNGIE FAIL!)

About the myrk giant going insane like the small myrks. We have this behavoiur in the Our Farewell tagsets http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/show/o ... ell-tagset ooga and I have been making for years and its pretty cool indeed. If you wanted to help balanace it GKG you could increase the amount of health the MG has so at the point it WOULD have died before, it could instead go berserk. This way it would not be a handicap to the MG making it have the same amount of USEABLE/controllable health, and be able to have the same useable range of health to work with before it goes crazy like small myrks do.

I never really thought about it, but this would mean a simple plugin could be created in the same manner you guys are making the GKG tagset to create a new plugin to make more UT points so you can get MAXIMUM amount of units per map (400,.. well just over 400) units that the myth engine can currently support at the same time on a map.
Creep, Keep or any other very large 2 team map, would really pretty damn epic with 200 units max of unit trade points for each team on 2 team maps. Though I am not sure how much could just be in a small tagest, or what changes would need to be on the maps themselves...hmmm

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 27 Feb 2013, 13:52

Err this isnt going to make dorfs NOT dud in the rain is it?

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 27 Feb 2013, 15:41

I can't edit my posts after a certain amount of time. Which means I have to make whole new posts with patch notes every time there is a new version. This forum sucks.

I am pretty indifferent about weather. I am not certain, but my guess is that there are no duds regardless of weather.

I will certainly consider separating the non UT changes into a separate tagset, obviously I thought of that before. Some of the changes like brigand health is to compensate for the fact that we can't do fractional UT points. Duds, the dorf stab, and to a lesser degree the wights, seem to be the only "major" issues in the eyes of the community right now. We can always make it a separate tag, but at this point I just want more people to try it out.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 27 Feb 2013, 16:00

About the fractional UT point values problem. I have never messed around with UT stuff in plugins, But I think this could be fixed just increasing the cost of everything by 2X. Brigands should not cost 2 points like a warrior, and they should not cost 1 point like a thrall due to their speed. Brigands should cost 1.5 points. But we cant have fractional or floating point values in UT since we can only have integer UT values. BUT if a warrior was 4 points and a thrall was 2 points then a brigand could be 3 points and be inbetween the two. This would also work well for spiders, as a spider should not cost the same as a thrall, though spiders can go places thrall cant, thrall can also go places spiders cant, (like under water) so you could make spiders 1 point to the thrall's 2 points. In myth 3 all the UT values were doubled just like I am describing, so thrall were 2 and warrs were 4 and trow were 48 UT points. (At least thats how I remember it, its been 11 years since I played myth 3 multiplayer)
If this 2X increase did not screw up not having enough UT points on maps then it would be the perfect soloution.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 27 Feb 2013, 16:09

actually as I understand it if you just doubled all of UT costs on every unit it would scale exactly on its own. The UT points are based on the value of the NUT units you start with. That is another possible solution for future consideration.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 27 Feb 2013, 16:21

O yea I almost forgot.

GKG One way to help balance the increased threat of missle units that CANT DUD, is to do something Ooga and I allways meant to get around to, but I dont think we did yet in any or our releases. In TFL units have something checked in Fear called "Chases unit during attack recovery" In TFL if you get up to a missle unit with a melee unit, and it starts to turn and run away from the attacker, the attacker hacks the missle unit in the back as it flees. In myth 2 the melee unit stops for half second (like twice as long as in TFL) every time it attacks the fleeing missle unit, this means the guy running away getting attacked in the back and flinching stops for a much shorter period of time, then the melee unit that is DOING the attacking. Think of it like this. These numbers are not exact but for example, an archer or dorf in TFL can walk 10 paces while getting hit in the back by a warrior while fleeing before he dies. In myth 2 an archer can run for 20 paces before he dies. It was really fucked up and made missle units, allready way more powerfull in myth 2 vs TFL even more unbalanced vs melee.
Ooga told me TFL units also have another thing checked that makes them attack feeling units in the back more eficiently checked in fear called "Chases unit intelligently" Though somehow I think it might just be the attack recovery one that makes the difference. But I will take ooga's word for it, since he is the fear master.

Anyways, its fucking hard enough to get up past arrows and bottles (now NO duds) and get up to an enemy dorf or archer and start hacking it in the back as it flees, only to have it take like TWICE as long as it did to do the same thing in TFL only to make it to safety of his buddies and kill your unit that was getting the dorf or archer in the rear. With NO duds, AND dorfs that can stabb, you really should add this TFL style chase/attack behaviour to help balanced the missle units out.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 27 Feb 2013, 16:30

yes, except that skilled players have already grown accustomed to this. They attack and click move in between attacks and attack again to get around this. This allows the ability for more skilled micro to get an advantage. Not sure if I would mess with that.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 27 Feb 2013, 16:33

you can only do that with 1 unit at a time though GKG, I do this like you mention, but if I have more then 1 enemy missle unit being attacked by more then 1 of my melee units, I cant do as you describe. Try doing that with 6 archers being hacked in the rear while fleeing. Aint happening. remember this was in TFL so players should not have to work around the fact bungie made units more stupid in myth 2 in this case and micro to make up for it.

Professional Killer · Post by **Professional Killer** » 27 Feb 2013, 16:35

Good with some refreshing thoughts and new thinking.
I like this. Looking forward to try it out.

Hadzenegger · Post by **Hadzenegger** » 27 Feb 2013, 18:28

actually seems legit. will download, good work flowbros

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 27 Feb 2013, 20:44

Downloaded it. Maybe post some times when you'll be testing this stuff and I'll see if I can get on.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » 27 Feb 2013, 21:07

GiantKillerGen wrote:The UT points are based on the value of the NUT units you start with.

So with this tagset, If I had a Trow has ~24 more UT points?

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 27 Feb 2013, 21:27

Renwood wrote: About the myrk giant going insane like the small myrks. We have this behavoiur in the Our Farewell tagsets http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/show/o ... ell-tagset ooga and I have been making for years and its pretty cool indeed. If you wanted to help balanace it GKG you could increase the amount of health the MG has so at the point it WOULD have died before, it could instead go berserk. This way it would not be a handicap to the MG making it have the same amount of USEABLE/controllable health, and be able to have the same useable range o

I was able to make it go berserk, but for some reason the myrk giant would just guard instead of attack the nearest enemy, like small myrks do. Was there a script you used for the myrk giant to make this work?

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 27 Feb 2013, 22:00

well I haven't really calculated it Aki, but yea that sounds about right. Actually there are point differences in wights too remember. so I think NUT has 3 wights? so 24 + (3 x 2) = 30.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 27 Feb 2013, 22:02

I work evenings so I will be online pretty late, around midnight eastern time. Otherwise early afternoon on weekends, before and/or after the usual kickball time would be a good bet that I will have some games hosted.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 27 Feb 2013, 23:35

i see a bit of an issue with the wight speed... it will pretty much negate tagging wights with thrall. will be cool to see more epic land wightings... but this makes them near invincible underwater haha

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 28 Feb 2013, 00:31

no ZAK, ooga made the MG go berserk with 100% fear work, no scripting. I will see if I can get him to post here how to do it.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 28 Feb 2013, 00:34

Adren wrote: i see a bit of an issue with the wight speed... it will pretty much negate tagging wights with thrall. will be cool to see more epic land wightings... but this makes them near invincible underwater haha

I got TWO WORDS for you adren.

STYGIAN WIGHT

Thats right, I will make wight that is wearing stygian armor and is MUFFIN TOPPIN all over sticking out and it will be fucking arrow/spear proof wight that only healing, high exsplosives and melee can kill!

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 28 Feb 2013, 04:19

yes of course we thought of that adren, however thrall could never chase down a wight before either, they were the same speed. so thrall have always just snuffed wights out of the water, or killed them before they could run.

Hadzenegger · Post by **Hadzenegger** » 28 Feb 2013, 22:54

just checked out raid, i didnt see this mentioned in OP but
assassin on Raid is General. interdasting

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 01 Mar 2013, 04:49

Oh yeah I forgot to mention I replaced the baron with the lichen general. GKG didn't like it but let me put it in to see if it made the games more fun.

Barons are a stupid assassin target, they outrun everything but ghols. The general will force you to use your assassin target instead of hide it, and will only outrun your thrall.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 01 Mar 2013, 07:35

note to zak:

just fyi, weather still causes duds. There does seem to be less duds though on maps like DE, DK, winter, etc. This might be explained by the fact that the "normal" duds are removed but the weather induced duds are still there. I am not sure how I feel about this, just thought I would let you know.

If you get a chance, mb ask the magma guys if it is even possible to remove duds caused by weather (or mb you know)? Also, can you ask if they have any ideas on how to remove the pus gas? Neither are really that big of a deal, just curious if we even have the option to do anything with those.

Got some fun games in today, will try to get more ppl playing it.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 03:22

http://hl.udogs.net/files/Uploads/%20Us ... gsetv2.zip

Okay so in this update:

Wight pus doesn't have a constant gas cloud around it when laying dormant on the ground

Rain no longer causes dwarves to dud

Myrk giant goes berserk at 25%, the same health fraction that the regular myrkridia does. Will probably be brought down to 10 or 15 percent, just forgot and am too lazy to go back and upload v3 right now!

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 04:18

damn, awesome job zak

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 05:10

I'm getting a lot of feedback that people dislike the idea of no duds.

We should consider making the no duds feature its own tagset.

I think this calls for further discussion as well.

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » 06 Mar 2013, 05:33

Dwarf stab sounds ok

No dwarf/mortar duds at all is a terrible idea really.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 05:39

Hishzak-1: I AM NOT REMOVING BOUNCES
[9:05pm] Hishzak-1: I removed duds
[9:06pm] lololol: YOU'RE SUPPORTING THOSE IDIOTS WHO WANT BOUNCES REMOVED
[9:06pm] lololol: and removing duds is still bad
[9:07pm] LLOYD_JR: removing pus and dwarf/mortar duds?
[9:07pm] LLOYD_JR: thats a fucking terrible idea. whos idea is that
[9:07pm] LLOYD_JR: cant believe i'm 100% agreeing with cu the mighty on something
[9:07pm] Hishzak-1: I forget, but its really GKG's tagset and he wanted it done
[9:08pm] LLOYD_JR: jesus
[9:08pm] Hishzak-1: rain no longer causes duds
[9:08pm] LLOYD_JR: ?????
[9:08pm] Hishzak-1: pus and bottles dont dud in anything but water
[9:08pm] LLOYD_JR: wtf are u and gkg smoking
[9:08pm] LLOYD_JR: lol
[9:08pm] Hishzak-1: everybody loves duds until they happen to them
[9:08pm] lololol: i dunno but gkg sped wights up
[9:08pm] lololol: i guess he really wants to get triple land wighted again
[9:08pm] LLOYD_JR: err everybody cries about duds when they happen and fuck u up yes but thats 100% part of the game
[9:09pm] lololol: yep
[9:09pm] LLOYD_JR: and u tend to get just as many lucky duds that help u as bad duds that fuck u up
[9:09pm] Hishzak-1: thats why this is a 3rd party option
[9:09pm] LLOYD_JR: its a terrible idea
[9:09pm] Hishzak-1: don't play it
[9:09pm] lololol: hey
[9:09pm] lololol: in this state we hang idiots
[9:09pm] lololol: dont like it?
[9:09pm] lololol: move north
[9:09pm] lololol: fuck you zak
[9:09pm] Hishzak-1: what cu said
[9:10pm] lololol: you are beneath ghengis to me right now
[9:10pm] LLOYD_JR: the changing trading point values isnt the worst idea
[9:10pm] lololol: and you know how so very low i hold ghengis
[9:10pm] LLOYD_JR: but no duds and stuff is terribad gonna go masturbate to a photo of oprah bad
[9:10pm] Hishzak-1: what do you think about dwarves having a stab
[9:10pm] LLOYD_JR: indifferent but no problem with it
[9:11pm] LLOYD_JR: if similar damage to archer stab
[9:11pm] LLOYD_JR: which is fuck all
[9:11pm] Shai|2: FALSE
[9:11pm] lololol: different from fundamentally changing the game
[9:11pm] Hishzak-1: so really I just need to make the duds their own separate tagset
[9:11pm] lololol: HEY
[9:11pm] Shai|2: A GROUP OF ARCHER STABS WILL TAKE DOWN A STYGIAN QUICKER THAN A PACK OF SENATORS ON JULIUS
[9:11pm] lololol: LETS REMOVE MISSES TOO IN MELEE
[9:11pm] lololol: FUCK IT
[9:11pm] LLOYD_JR: yeah a group of them
[9:11pm] lololol: LETS REMOVE BLOCKING
[9:11pm] Hishzak-1: why not
[9:11pm] Hishzak-1: I like blocks
[9:11pm] LLOYD_JR: but individually archet stab is pretty weak ass
[9:11pm] Hishzak-1: melee misses are kinda silly
[9:12pm] Shai|2: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN GANGS OF ROVING DWARVES START ANNIHILATING HERON GUARD HEROES
[9:12pm] Shai|2: WHAT THEN FLAT?
[9:12pm] LLOYD_JR: LOL
[9:12pm] LLOYD_JR: LOL
[9:12pm] LLOYD_JR: i think dwarf stab is fine if same speed/cooldown/damage as say archer stab
[9:12pm] lololol: a game that has no random elements is sterile, like zak's father should have been
[9:12pm] Hishzak-1: its exactly the same
[9:12pm] LLOYD_JR: but no duds is i cant even describe how dumb that is
[9:13pm] LLOYD_JR: if gkgs idea its probably because he thinks no duds proves he has more skills since nobody can ever get a lucky dud on him or somesuch
[9:13pm] Hishzak-1: if there were no duds in the finals of a tournament, would anybody notice?
[9:13pm] Hishzak-1: would they care?
[9:13pm] lololol: yes
[9:13pm] LLOYD_JR: you notice every damn game ever really
[9:14pm] LLOYD_JR: and its part of the game. a good part
[9:14pm] lololol: the whole point is playing and adapting to the random shit that happens
[9:14pm] lololol: a good player isnt fucked by something random happening
[9:14pm] lololol: THATS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THEY'RE GOOD
[9:14pm] lololol: PUS DUDDED ON PACKED MELEE? GOOD THING I DIDNT INITIATE MELEE BEFORE THAT LIKE ADRENALINE
[9:14pm] lololol: THEN SAY WELL GOT FUCKED BY DUDS AGAIN GUYS
[9:15pm] LLOYD_JR: i love saying that
[9:15pm] LLOYD_JR: NO MORE TO SAY BUT REMOVING DWARF/PUS DUDS IS TERRIBLE IDEA
[9:15pm] Hishzak-1: oh dwarf mortar rounds still dud
[9:16pm] Hishzak-1: forgot to take them out
[9:16pm] lololol: why dont you make archers shoot perfectly straight too
[9:17pm] Hishzak-1: instead of a parabola?
[9:19pm] Hishzak-1: anyways you're attacking me, a guy who doesn't really care that much about whether duds are in or not
[9:19pm] LLOYD_JR: i suspect the no duds idea is an elaborate trolljob
[9:19pm] Hishzak-1: go take it to the forum
[9:19pm] lololol: then why did you spend the time to remove them
[9:20pm] Hishzak-1: it was easy, and I thought it would be interesting
[9:20pm] Hishzak-1: I still think it would be interesting to have no duds
[9:20pm] LLOYD_JR: since if its actually legit and not an elaborate troll then
[9:20pm] lololol: guess you care then
[9:20pm] lololol: you even attempted to argue for it
[9:20pm] lololol: [23:06:30] <lololol> a game that has no random elements is sterile, like zak's father should have been [23:06:32] <Hishzak-1> its exactly the same [23:06:41] <LLOYD_JR> but no duds is i cant even describe how dumb that is [23:07:11] <LLOYD_JR> if gkgs idea its probably because he thinks no duds proves he has more skills since nobody can ever get a lucky dud on him or somesuch [23:07:34] <Hishzak-1
[9:20pm] Hishzak-1: I have no problem taking them out
[9:21pm] Hishzak-1: lol at my attempt to argue
[9:21pm] Hishzak-1: 'its exactly the same'
[9:21pm] Hishzak-1: I'm frothing at the mouth
[9:21pm] lololol: [23:07:34] <Hishzak-1> if there were no duds in the finals of a tournament, would anybody notice?
[9:21pm] lololol: [23:07:38] <Hishzak-1> would they care?
[9:21pm] Hishzak-1: yeah thats a legitimate question
[9:21pm] Hishzak-1: I don't think I would care if there was a plugin on that took out duds
[9:21pm] lololol: no
[9:22pm] lololol: my am i bleeding from my ass 3 times every month
[9:22pm] Hishzak-1: I think there are others who feel the same way
[9:22pm] lololol: thats a legitmate question
[9:22pm] lololol: yours is based out of either trolling, stupidity, or horrific ignorance
[9:22pm] LLOYD_JR: vote trolling
[9:22pm] lololol: i had a somewhat minor level respect for everyone that played myth because i thought they understood and appreciated it
[9:22pm] lololol: including the vital random features
[9:23pm] lololol: i can see thats been completely destroyed
[9:23pm] lololol: you're a pack of retards who would willfully destroy a game
[9:24pm] Hishzak-1: its not changing the game code, its the equivalent of mazz
[9:25pm] LLOYD_JR: wouldnt give a fuck if people played it in random terrible games
[9:25pm] LLOYD_JR: in any type of tourney game? fuck no
[9:26pm] LLOYD_JR: actually it would make random shit games less fun too but nowhere near as bad as to use it in tournament games
[9:26pm] Hishzak-1: I fail to see how it would ruin things if your use of pus and dwarves went as planned
[9:27pm] LLOYD_JR: sometimes you take chances that other person may dud, sometimes it pays off. thats just 1 example
[9:28pm] LLOYD_JR: its like si attacking something with an unknown combat card or afflicting something with a 50-50 roll and relying on it. good when pays off sucks if it doesnt but fun to take the chance
[9:28pm] LLOYD_JR: or many other shit shit lol
[9:29pm] lololol: i already explained why
[9:29pm] lololol: and how it decreases skill
[9:29pm] lololol: gave numerous examples actually
[9:29pm] lololol: you havent refuted any of them
[9:30pm] lololol: and this isnt just random shit they added because LOL RANDOM
[9:31pm] lololol: the hilarity in this is that you fuck faces want to remove the shit because you want individual skill to be more apparent
[9:32pm] lololol: when you're actually making the game less skilled
[9:33pm] LLOYD_JR: without reading anything whatsoever about it my first guess was someone wants to show their superior skill more by having no chances of random duds or anything ever happening
[9:33pm] lololol: of course
[9:34pm] lololol: theres no deep thought to it at all
[9:34pm] lololol: people who whine about luck are losers
[9:40pm] LLOYD_JR: i'll cry about it if it fucks up whatever i'm doing but also accept it's part of the game and a fun part of it
[9:40pm] LLOYD_JR: it evens out in regards to luck
[9:40pm] Hishzak-1: do you feel the pus rate was perfect then
[9:40pm] Hishzak-1: would you like it increased or decreased?
[9:41pm] LLOYD_JR: some of the most hilarous moments ever in tournament games have come from duds and stuff really
[9:41pm] LLOYD_JR: pus rate of what
[9:41pm] LLOYD_JR: pus dud rate?
[9:42pm] Hishzak-1: dud rate
[9:42pm] LLOYD_JR: i think pus and dorf bottle and mortar bottle dud rate is fine really
[9:42pm] LLOYD_JR: i honestly wouldnt see a need to change any of those from what they are
[9:42pm] LLOYD_JR: adds that random element to the game
[9:43pm] Hishzak-1: just gonna copy paste this convo on that thread

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 06:34

I'm sorry you had to put up with that Zak, especially when you aren't even the one anyone should be bitching to.

Yes, as you recall, I think the first thing I said when talking about no-duds was that it was so controversial that it would probably have to be its own separate tagset. As you and I previously discussed, this tagset isn't really meant to be a final version of anything, it is a convenient package of proposed changes for further testing since nobody has really ever tried these things out before. I think I was pretty clear about this in my original post. Let's give it a few weeks at the very least and then we can discuss how to adjust from there. Speaking of whiners...

Quite hilarious how some people try to make this out like I am the only person who doesn't like duds. Also quite hilarious how this nostalgic group of players keep saying how bungie got everything exactly "just right" at the initial release (just like the trading values). Even more hilarious that almost none of these people have actually just sat down and tried a game of something different before coming to a conclusion about it. The truth of the matter is that when it comes to games, everyone has their own preferences. There is no "correct" way. What we are dealing with here is nostalgia, which is fine. That is to be respected for a game like this with this community after 15 years. But those people should acknowledge it for what it is, not that any way is more "correct" or perfect than any other.

My opinion: duds do not add any element of skill or gameplay depth to the game (especially pus duds which can be picked up by the enemy). Bounces are a different story, because you can aim your shots at the ground at the feet of your target to accommodate both the possibility of no bounce and a bounce, which requires more skill / micro. This also allows players to try to dodge bounces which is another skill element and can be as effectively avoided as a dud. As pus or dorf bottle goes out, there is a very real element of reflexes / timing / judging if its a bounce and reacting to that. Currently it is also about reacting to the possibility of duds, but removing that and leaving bounces leaves the rest of this gameplay element completely intact and unchanged. A very similar concept to the way archer fights / arrow dodging is done right now. So giving more skilled aim and micro to your shots gives you a very real benefit to it of more damage dealt to the enemy. However the benefit of it isn't so great that you absolutely have to do that, which leaves additional decisions for the player to make with respect to what units to focus their micro on, computing a whole cost/benefit analysis. This is a huge part of myth, deciding where to focus your micro on because you can only move, react, and think so fast.

Any time a player is presented with a decision, is where skill is derived from in a game. There is going to be at least two different options, and one is going to turn out to be be better than the other. this is the opportunity to make a big play or a mistake. Having to adjust to a situation (i.e. a decision) requires some skill, sure, but there is plenty of "situation adjustments" in the game that do not involve your attack randomly not working. Those other situation adjustments are usually a lot more intelligent / skillful too since it doesn't just boil down to: "oh my pus didn't work and they just grabbed it, I am going to situationally adjust by running away because I am fucked now". In that instance, the decision was all but made for the player already.

And it does happen in games that are often very dependent on pus, that one side will have 3 more pus duds than the other side which is a very significant amount that will very significantly affect the outcome of the game. In a tournament competition I find this unacceptable. I agree it does have a certain entertainment value, but it belongs in non-tournaments. It dilutes skill and respect for the competition. Imagine if the dud rate was 50%, what then? It still adds skill? Really? What is the supposed theoretically optimal dud rate value to maximize "skill" in the game with respect to handling duds?

Healthy and respectful debate is fine, but judging by some of their comments, I can only imagine the people you were talking to are still quite butthurt about their mwc team being complete shit ever since I left them and have subsequently been beating on them / winning all the mwc's ever since. This of course gives me great pleasure so thanks for sharing that.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 06:45

I only saw Cu refer to adren when talking about players that blame duds for losses.

Flatline was definitely referring to you though, but he isn't a name changer (yet)

I think its interesting that there are polar ideas on whether or not duds require players to have more skill or less. How many people actually make decisions accounting for duds?

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 06:50

yea I don't really get the whole "possibility of duds factors into the decision making process in the game." I need someone to explain that to me, because it never does for me. Considering my success in this game, I find it hard to believe that I am somehow missing something or not understanding. You can't decide anything on something that hasn't happened yet, you can't predict duds. And as I already explained, after it is realized that the shot is a dud, the decision the player has to make is usually already decided for them. It adds no further depth to the gameplay beyond what bounces already does for the game.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 06:52

Another thing I think this tagset changes is that ghols will no longer drop duds on death either. Not sure if that matters, but it wasn't something I had considered earlier.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 06:57

yea interesting, didn't think of that before. That is probably fine, it will always explode on your own units then if you are not careful.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 07:03

GiantKillerGen wrote:yea I don't really get the whole "possibility of duds factors into the decision making process in the game." I need someone to explain that to me, because it never does for me. Considering my success in this game, I find it hard to believe that I am somehow missing something or not understanding. You can't decide anything on something that hasn't happened yet, you can't predict duds. And as I already explained, after it is realized that the shot is a dud, the decision the player has to make is usually already decided for them. It adds no further depth to the gameplay beyond what bounces already does for the game.

[9:14pm] lololol: a good player isnt fucked by something random happening
[9:14pm] lololol: THATS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THEY'RE GOOD
[9:14pm] lololol: PUS DUDDED ON PACKED MELEE? GOOD THING I DIDNT INITIATE MELEE BEFORE THAT LIKE ADRENALINE
[9:14pm] lololol: THEN SAY WELL GOT FUCKED BY DUDS AGAIN GUYS

I think Cu has a point about people engaging melee, then looping the ghol around to hit the enemy with pus, and it dudding, which happens a lot. Instead you would pus the enemy first, then engage. Not every situation allows that though.

This will also change pus and anti-pus skirmishes, where sometimes you could get a pus from killing an enemy pus ghol. That is no longer an option.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 07:08

"And it does happen in games that are often very dependent on pus, that one side will have 3 more pus duds than the other side which is a very significant amount that will very significantly affect the outcome of the game. In a tournament competition I find this unacceptable. "

I agree with this sentiment as well. At what point do pus dud factors become more luck than skill? Picking up a dud pus thrown by the other team does take some level of skill, but at the same time that is also incorporating a certain amount of luck that is unfair. If there were pus allocated randomly on every map, like proving grounds, and one side had more than the other, I wouldn't really enjoy that map as much.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 07:25

so to address your first example zak (which by the way, thanks for bringing up, the first honest attempt):

Here we have 2 options you have presented, 1 is to engage melee before the pus, 2 is to make sure they are pussed before the melee. Neither option is better in every circumstance, it is situation dependent. But unlike every other situational adjustment in the game which you can see unfolding (and the better players differentiate themselves by being able to see a situation unfolding earlier than other players), it is impossible to see which situation this is going to be, you can't predict it. And since pus duds are so rare I would never try to accommodate the possibility of a dud. Even if you did though, how would you accommodate it? The only accommodation is to check to see if it dudded or not. That isn't true accommodation though, you are completely helpless and at the mercy of the computer's random number generation.

Bounces are much more common so you should argue a much more realistic scenario would be that you would want to make sure that your pus hit was effective enough before engaging (through any possibility of bounces). You can increase the probability of success for this through skilled aim. That is true accommodation. So even though bounces also incorporates a computer's random number generation, it does add an element of skill. You can't predict it, but you can anticipate it and get near the same result.

With random chance duds, more intelligent players cannot see something unfolding earlier than anyone else. They have to wait until it has actually happened like everyone else. They can't increase their probability of success either. It is just a roll of the dice. Is there any skillful way to roll a dice to increase your probability for success? I think not.

In my view, the chance for bounces has everything that is good about this game design element, and duds has everything bad about it. I think people would be a lot better off as looking at this as the chance of a bounce is the same as the chance of a skillfully induced dud. As if there was a skillfull mechanic to disarm your shots mid-air. In my eyes, with just bounces and no true duds, the essence of duds are really still there.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 07:32

GiantKillerGen wrote: Bounces are much more common so you should argue a much more realistic scenario would be that you would want to make sure that your pus hit was effective enough before engaging (through any possibility of bounces). You can increase the probability of success for this through skilled aim. That is true accommodation.

With random chance duds, more intelligent players cannot see something unfolding earlier than anyone else. They have to wait until it has actually happened like everyone else. They can't increase their probability of success either. It is just a roll of the dice. Is there any skillful way to roll a dice?

[9:26pm] Hishzak-1: I fail to see how it would ruin things if your use of pus and dwarves went as planned
[9:27pm] LLOYD_JR: sometimes you take chances that other person may dud, sometimes it pays off. thats just 1 example

I could see someone planning a rush and taking into account whether or not their pus will dud, and if the enemy will have their dwarf bottles dud. Someone also might decide that they don't need to retreat from a warr pack because it only has 2 pus, and there is a good chance that one of those will dud and not kill their dwarf. It is more of a calculated risk in my opinion, not really a skill. Just like if you are about to get pussed, and you hope that the pus will bounce, so you keep moving towards the ghol as its thrown. Maybe it will bounce, and you're fine, maybe it won't and you die. It is something you should do most of the time anyways. Is that a skilled move, or is it just a roll of the dice?

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 06 Mar 2013, 07:41

Gambling is a skill. To not engage melee because your pus might dud is like not fucking a girl because your condom might break: you're really too much of a pussy to deserve to be in that position in the first place.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 07:47

given 2 pus, it is unlikely either of those would dud. I am pretty sure the dud % is less than 25% (what is it, btw?). I never "take chances" the opponent is going to dud, that would be ridiculous. I am going to clump my melee into a better formation for a melee fight and hope their first throw is a dud? outlandish! What other things would you do that "takes a chance"? You only take a chance when you are forced to, you have no choice but to try to rush and hope for the best. You just hope for a dud at that point, that is all. You don't do that unless you absolutely have to. Nobody executes a plan figuring that into their decision making process. Like I said before, the decision was already made for them. Even on winter or drowned empire, nobody just assumes the opponent will dud until they have to just hope for it. But then the duds are so common people get pissed when the opponent doesn't get a dud or some such. That is like saying you factor in the weather bursts into it too, waiting to rush dorfs when the weather kicks up temporarily for increased chance of duds. Nobody does that, ever, in the history of this game. That in itself is proof that nobody factors that into the risk of their plan. If they did, you would see people waiting for the heavy snow or rain to kick in before having their entire team coordinate a rush against dorfs.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 07:50

gambling is not much of a skill, and i didn't even talk about gambling, I talked about rolling a dice. Since you want to weigh in then answer my question, how do you skillfully roll a dice?

In gambling there may be some way to affect or at least play the house's odds. So that analogy is incorrect as there is no way for the player to affect the probability of a dud. The only way they can do that is by waiting for heavier rain or snow on the very few and specific weather maps, which I already mentioned nobody ever does, ever.

With the condom breaking, that is physics, you can affect the probability of that.

All these analogies where you can skillfully affect the probability of something just like bounces, but you can't do that in duds. All of those are invalid examples.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 07:53

LLOYD_JR: you forgot to post this part
[11:54pm] LLOYD_JR: <LLOYD_JR> dwarf dropping lit bottle when dying is fine also. it was only fucked up when magma did that fuckup in that patch that time or whatever and dwarf would drop a bottle when it died like 50%+ of the time when it died or something ridiculous
[11:54pm] LLOYD_JR: <LLOYD_JR> which was fixed
[11:54pm] LLOYD_JR: <LLOYD_JR> did you watch that epic draft tournament lichen game with paris vs ramirez general cb war?
[11:54pm] LLOYD_JR: <LLOYD_JR> that shit would have been nowhere as epic without the duds involved
[11:54pm] LLOYD_JR: <LLOYD_JR> it sucked for ram in the end but it was pretty awesome to watch

Courtesy of flatline

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 07:54

with more expensive, faster, and tougher wights, along with dwarves who dud less and can stab, drowned empire could become a much more fun map in my opinion

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 08:07

our other example for duds in the debate is from a cb battle.

I'm speechless.

a battle of whose aimed shot didn't dud first. sounds super epic.

and yea zak, I agree a lot of the maps would be more interesting. I like the new wights tbh, but w/e.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 08:13

[12:00am] LLOYD_JR: some of most epic shit in tournament games has happened from random duds and such. thats just the most recent first example i can think of. and everybody that saw that film / cb fight agrees it was pretty epic
[12:02am] Hishzak-1: our idea of epic is different
[12:03am] Hishzak-1: that cb fight was like if two cowboys had a pistol duel, and each gun (6 shooter) had 4 blanks in it
[12:06am] LLOYD_JR: That is like saying you factor in the weather bursts into it too, waiting to rush dorfs when the weather kicks up temporarily for increased chance of duds. Nobody does that, ever, in the history of this game.
[12:07am] LLOYD_JR: lol i must be edulus level then because on something like mudpit or a map that rains i've often decdided to rush or something since theres a good possibility of dorfs dudding when it does
[12:07am] Hishzak-1: thats not as random as duds occurring without rain and you know it
[12:07am] LLOYD_JR: and i'm more inclined to take risks rushing on winter when opponent has dwarf there too since dud chance= higher
[12:08am] Hishzak-1: winter is a rushy map even without the duds
[12:08am] LLOYD_JR: i still dont just stupidly rush but i'm certainly more inclined to say rush a dwarf and shit on winter than on desert thanks to increased chance of duds
[12:08am] Hishzak-1: look at tamaerlin
[12:08am] Hishzak-1: tamaerlin duds just as often as desert but its still just as rushy as winter
[12:09am] LLOYD_JR: i'll rush a dwarf on winter and take a chance if need be over doing same thing on desert etc everytime. increased dud potential
[12:09am] Hishzak-1: desert is not as rushy as a map
[12:09am] LLOYD_JR: doesnt mean just stupidly rush dwarfs on winter every chance i get though
[12:10am] LLOYD_JR: is just a better chance your gamble will pay off if you take it
[12:10am] Hishzak-1: yes because the dud % is so high
[12:10am] Hishzak-1: if thats a feature we should make it that high on every map
[12:10am] Hishzak-1: why don't we have interval rains on every map
[12:13am] LLOYD_JR: offtopic really. i said i wouldnt as often take the risk on desert vs winter. playing to the map. If i'm willing to gamble rushing a dwarf or something then i'd do it on winter with less hesitation than on desert or tamerlin.
[12:14am] Hishzak-1: right and you're still going to take that gamble more often on tamaerlin too even without the rain
[12:14am] LLOYD_JR: i dont really think dud % should be higher or lower really. It seems fine as it is. I do think taking duds out completely is terrible though
[12:15am] LLOYD_JR: shrug. i'm not a player who wont take risks. some may play that way but not really my style.

So by removing rain duds, we risk taking away the skill of rushing when it rains/snows hard.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 08:28

talking about weather maps vs non weather maps is a completely different conversation and completely irrelevant to this discussion. Yes obviously you know dorfs will be less effective in weather or water compared to maps without weather or without water.

That is like saying if I made certain trow maps have the trow be weaker than certain other trow maps, this shows that these maps with weaker trow affected my gameplay decision about trow. Which demonstrates what exactly? How is any of that relevant? We are talking about duds vs no duds on all maps, not the dynamics between maps. If this was an attempt to go off of my comment about weather bursts, then again, that was about the weather bursts affecting your decision, not the weather itself which is persistent on the weather map.

Really disappointed in flatline's logic here, so I'm going to stop with him right there. If someone else has something to contribute I can respond.

Flatline · Post by **Flatline** » 06 Mar 2013, 08:56

<LLOYD_JR> Really disappointed in flatline's logic here, so I'm going to stop with him right there. If someone else has something to contribute I can respond
<LLOYD_JR> SEE GKG DOESNT WANT TO DEBATE IT EITHER
<Hishzak-1> lol
<Hishzak-1> you wouldn't even go on the website
<Hishzak-1> he addressed at least 2 of your arguments
<LLOYD_JR> your such a troller
<Hishzak-1> 3 actually
<Hishzak-1> I played devil's advocate for both sides of the debate
<LLOYD_JR> lol

<LLOYD_JR> i fail to see lol whateverrrrrrrrrrrrrr. YOU JUST WANT ME TO ENGAGE IN A LONGWINDED 50 PAGE DEBATE WITH GKG FOR YOUR OWN AMUSEMENT ZAK
<LLOYD_JR> FUCK
<LLOYD_JR> YOU
<LLOYD_JR> POST THAT YOU idiot

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 09:09

btw flat's example of the supposedly epic cb duel is a perfect example of the entertainment value that duds can provide, while simultaneously demonstrating why they have no place in a competitive tournament setting. That example is moot because we are talking about two types of entertainment value, and I am not arguing against that point. However, in a competitive tournament, the entertainment is meant to be derived from the competition, seeing the skills of both sides match up without any hindrance from external factors. Let's take the NBA with basketball for example, what if the hoops just randomly shook at times which made it not only difficult, but let's say, somehow impossible for a shot to be made (an equivalent of a dorf dud, impossible to prevent, still not equivalent to a pus dud which also has an additional chance of being picked up again or going to the other team). That would be kind of entertaining in some regular season matches for some people, MAYBE. Take that same mechanic and put it in the NBA finals, what then? Also imagine if the length of the game was really just one quarter, because that would more adequately represent the importance of pus duds in particular, giving proper weight to that potentially one basket made when weighted with the likely overall score of the game. Also, how do the players accommodate their shots for that mechanic? its not more difficult, its straight up impossible no matter what they do.

browning · Post by **browning** » 06 Mar 2013, 09:14

i'm cool with removing duds, but i don't see the point of removing weather-related dynamics (this is mentioned in the latest release)

it makes as much sense as letting fire arrows burn snow and desert (and water), or letting bottles explode in the water
it's a constraint of the map itself, and it should rightfully have an impact on unit selection and gameplay

if you would like to play DE without rain, then call it a rainless variation of DE, i also think it has potential
maybe have a variation with alternating heavy rain/no rain periods; the difference between both states will be greater now that there are no duds in clear weather, which might make weather more relevant in game decisions

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 06 Mar 2013, 09:16

not arguing with weather duds, don't care about that nearly as much. Obviously it would be nice if weather was fully customizable option on any map/game, but it isn't.