Myrgard

Guys, for you all to believe Asmodian is not on the same level of captaining as Rabican or ska is just heresay. Take rabican for example, when he won that shitty mwc2001 tournament (HAVE YOU SEEN THESE FILMS??? FLATLINE, REALLY?????) there were more tournament teams participating than the number of individual participants in any of the tournaments Asmodian won as a cap. In b4 "Lolz just trollin dewds"

Not to mention that Np also won Champions of Myth, The Blood Tournament, F.U.C.K., TFC, MWC06... even the non-MWCs were larger tournaments that anything in the modern era.

Then why aren't we talking about civil the same was as NP then? They have similar tournament success, but just from the 1-2 years prior when there was even more care and interest, right? What's the difference? No one on that side of the argument has ever been able to answer that one for me.

2001 is just the year some people picked because that was the last year that still has some people (coincidentally mostly people associated with NP or 12 inch) that did well back then and are still around today. So they will forever cling to those emotional memories because of its sentimental value to them and continue to hype it. If we had any civil players still active today that stuck around all these years, they would be calling bullshit and say that 2000 was "the year" of myth competition, and that they just didn't care in 2001.

Well you answered my question. I agree with limp, tirri and the others. I think 'newer' captains such as myself or smo need to respect those who came before us.

I do not see any real separation between smo and myself as captain. I certainly do not see a clear #2 in the captain game either.

I think we should have another contest and settle this matter. I'm offering to host a tourney in the coming weeks. What say you smo?

adrenaline wrote:Not to mention that Np also won Champions of Myth, The Blood Tournament, F.U.C.K., TFC, MWC06... even the non-MWCs were larger tournaments that anything in the modern era.

I guess you just missed my post. Larger doesn't mean better quality for the top teams. You can argue that 'larger' is a better tournament because it would create more forum content and more people talking about a tournament, but at the end of the day there is only a handful of contenders in any tournament. 2-3 in very recent years, 3-4 before that.

I already said Rabican's achievements are better than mine as well, there really is no way for me to catch him with the few opportunities I have to prove myself. I'm saying I'm a better captain based on what you can see. Prepration, trades, in-game directions, redistribution, ect.

Ratking wrote:Well you answered my question. I agree with limp, tirri and the others. I think 'newer' captains such as myself or smo need to respect those who came before us.

I do not see any real separation between smo and myself as captain. I certainly do not see a clear #2 in the captain game either.

I think we should have another contest and settle this matter. I'm offering to host a tourney in the coming weeks. What say you smo?

I mean if you host something I'll play.

Let's have a two team asmo vs ratking draft tournament that will run for 2 weeks. IM DOWN

tirri wrote:Let's have a two team asmo vs ratking draft tournament that will run for 2 weeks. IM DOWN

here here

I think there have only been a few great captains in the entirety of myth's duration. I would classify these players as having similar makeups, in that they have a specific intention to lead a team, and a ceaseless desire to win which they eventually would. These players are probably something as follows over the course of the past 17 or so years.

Phod
Rabican
Hitlow
Chohan/BTT
GKG


I don't think there are many other players you could add to this roster meaningfully, and honestly, Rab and Hit might be a stretch, because I'm not sure how much they really wanted the job, and that is sort of the point. You could tentatively add Ska to this list for NC's terrific run of wins and finals appearances, but that was a such a group effort on the part of ska/cu/shai/etc. that it's hard to give him the entirety of the credit, coupled with similar questions of his actual desire to captain just as the aforementioned players.

We have not seen many great captains in myth's run, but we absolutely have seen a large variety of extremely motivated captains who have had varying degrees of capability. There has also been a constant string of players who never really wanted to have the captaining role to begin with, but had no other choice because lets face it, almost no one wants the job. Even if they do, it doesn't mean they can do it well simultaneously, and this has been true for time immemorial.

Well said limp. I actually knew nothing about phod, maybe I should dig up some old films of him and check him out sometime.

My only concern with a "rat vs asmo" tourney is It kind of leaves me to hang out and dry. NOT COOL.

what the fuck am i going to do? I am supposed to not play? Or play, but somehow restrain myself from not helping either one, and everyone just trust me? Is there rules of what I can and cannot help with?

Even if I did that perfectly, if I am on a team and that team wins it would always be an excuse for the loser. The perception of the whole thing would be tainted and we would be right back where we were before.

Really I don't understand how rat goes from not caring to to captain in a draft tourney, to wanting to organize a tournament himself to settle "#2 captain" between him and asmo. He definitely has a hardon for asmo for some reason. This would have been a lot easier if he had just captained his team from the beginning in this draft tournament. He should just captain this week when he plays asmo's team. He just needs his team to show or some sub help to make it fair. Oh and also for par to step aside.

Phod and BTT?

Ok, I think it's safe to say we can end this discussion. I get it, most of you have a hard on for the well known players of the past.

I really don't understand why people wouldn't want the captaining job. I tend to think it's because people are not confident in their abilities to have a positive affect on the games or in other words they don't know the game as well as they think they do when they are put in a position where they have to take into account every aspect of the game, not just for yourself as an individual player, but for your whole team.

If you like to win, you should want to captain. Winning as a captain is wayyyyy more rewarding than winning as just a normal player.

Giant Killer General wrote:I actually knew nothing about phod, maybe I should dig up some old films of him and check him out sometime

Do any random unit trade you want without thinking of it before hand, push enter and click your mouse mid one time. I think this will be an accurate depiction of Phod's captaining.

Nah it's not that bad, but seriously there is nothing to see.

Giant Killer General wrote:He just needs his team to show or some sub help to make it fair. Oh and also for par to step aside.

I think Paris should finish the job. He is just 5 games away from turning the corner to become a very good captain.

ill write an article so we can archive the results/standings thread for asmo's fantasy draft tournament FOR ALL TIME

MAY I PRESENT TO YOU:

why aren't we talking about civil here?

this thread is great let's continue debate
par par par myths devils advocate


why aren't we talking about civil here?

because civil casually shit down the throats of every player and team who came after them looking to be the best by posting philosophic troll articles on how everyone on the journey to myth 2 soulblighter success and respect (m2sbr) is as pathetic as they come. [short version, read no further]
a quick glance at civils mwc99 threat assessment bio tells you that in terms of competitive advantages myth has only changed by a declining number of competitive teams

MacObserver99 wrote:Seriously, Civil Order have to be one of the more dangerous orders entering MWC99. With a strong showing in MWC98 and recent victories under their belt, they are one of the four or five strong title contenders.

yet they knew what it was like to be the dominating champions of the internet's version of the special olympics, the feeling of what it's like to be on top. it pretty much means nothing (ouch sorry fragile egos), and if you talk them up it's a double edged sword if you ever competed in a similar fashion to them because they did it first, and you will never have that.

they are the original troll champions for this, there were players still doing this ten years following their first mwc victory (mwc was created and founded by a member of civil). one could even argue that because players continued to contend for tournament success or mastery of a broken game, Civil never truly stopped winning in this fashion beyond their 6-8 tournament 1st place spree taking place over 2 years. lets take a look back at something phod once said over 14 years ago

M. Bison wrote:"M2SBR: Myth 2 Soulblighter Respect. A player's desperate need for recognition of his or her Myth 2 Soulblighter playing ability. This player often prefers Myth 2 Soulblighter respect, such as "You are the best team ever" or "You are so good at Myth; I am hot for you" to real life, earned respect, such as "You are fun to play random games with" or "That's a really swell color and icon you use. You are a swell person". Often this need is so desperate that the offending player will scribe countless posts attempting to convince others of his greatness."

Myth 2 Soulblighter Respect, or M2SBR, was coined by the Street Fighters as a way of describing the growing trend of players and teams that popped up in Myth 2's post-MWC99 era."

you switch out 'scribe countless posts' for countless amounts of hours spent on this game and you can see this perspective even clearer. their victories saturate what has been continued to mold to this day, especially with the abundance of 'myth champion teams' who had players that did not get along. not to mention while phod is the figure head here (he posted articles), he didn't always captain. many of the civil order players had achieved tournament success on multiple platforms during their time on both the fallen lords and myth 2. most players now don't know the names of players on civil, much less who captained for them; obscurity of this knowledge plays a factor as it is difficult to identify [with] the vague.



a huge part of what makes myth fun has been missing in recent years because before, throughout the previous decade, you had groups of players on all playing and communicating with each other, stratting learning together constantly and now this number is less than 5, if any at all. we have gone from groups of title contenders to individuals. civil had a number of players who literally learned how to play the game together (see np), and also didn't need the 'one player needs to be captain and this is a teams most important player in terms of team control' strategy. shit like that didn't matter because all of the players were equally invested, and it only became the go to once the game declined in an equal distribution of player investment. the group effort (see ska/cu/shai) civil had put them over the top of their time as they could constantly bounce ideas off each other. phod is simply not as brilliant without the other players in civil being present in his time, notable players as captains to mention here are ruiner, ananab tilps, stinger, visigoth; while guttermouth and el destructo were phenomenal heavy hitters for their era (hell guttermouth is capping games for civil by the time they are sf). even when one player was 'capping' they likely were all capping, they all enjoyed playing together and playing together was the only time they actually took the game serious as it was clearly the peak of their experience.

here's an example of what it was first like to be on a team who is fully invested in being a team


other reasons we may not be talking about civil the same as np (or great teams): no remaining players on myth really spent time playing with civil whereas a number of remaining players did spend time playing with np and perhaps were even on np's roster at one point or another. let's not forget the game civil played (myth 1.0-1.3) is considered even more broken than the current 1.8 version we play on, and was played when everyone's internet connections were much less consistent. one could say civil played a completely different game than we do or perhaps ever did.

Fans of basketball can make the argument who is the greatest of all time, ex you have the 11 time grand champion bill russell of the 50s/60s vs the 6 time grand champion jordan of the 80s/90s. Some find the argument null because these players played in different eras under different rules and circumstance. The argument often goes in favor of Jordan, and those arguing are often more likely influenced by Jordan in some way in comparison to Russell, a confirmation bias has been established by their experience of seeing proof of Jordan's dominance.


without a doubt for me, civil is in that same boat as np as teams who are GREATEST OF ALL TIME; although considering time and different patches i would say np is THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME while civil was the GREATEST TEAM OF A TIME. i'm not sure if there was more care and interest when they played in comparison with np (one could argue they may have caused more care and interest), but they most certainly found success during a time where the number of players who were putting in a substantial amount of time and effort to win games and tournaments on myth had potentially peaked.
they figured out how to play their current meta before many others did and likewise enforced their dominance with a respectable consecutive string of tournament victories. acknowledging their existence spites all who came after them; and there are many a fool who have. however as I said, us mythers now are far less connected to the civil team than np (hello networking); therefore, we have not been talking civil the same as np or any other post-civil team. in retrospect, perhaps they transcend np in this fashion. the old gods, or what have you



offtopic:
i think cho had the ceaseless desire to win over btt, btt was more like a puppet tool cho was sitting 5-6 feet away who he trained to be his hawk and enjoyed winning. i'd argue cho was in full control of those reigns and btt was along for the ride, btt took the captains seat because of this. vocal communication in myth is far superior than typing, hence the mid 2000s trend of teams using voice communication as a utility; BME 2004 actually had a an additional player present for the finals who was spectating and backseating with another player at their own home. if someone told me cho wasn't backseat captaining his little brother when they played i would tell them grass is purple.

i recall a conversation with magne following his 2004 mwc win where i was trolling him saying civil order would crush bme to which he replied that he did (team lame; mbison + odin + bmf players + nemesis, kilg lakitu et al) as he was becoming champion and they did not stand a chance. at the time i didn't even acknowledge these two teams played on completely versions of the game, but both were the 'teams to beat' in their respective windows of time.


on another off topic note i think it's best i captain my team's tournament match as ratking would not be handed groceries but empty cupboards to work with, it also causes more cliffhanging anticipation for the upcoming ratking vs asmo draft tournament. obliging spectators is moot in a casual setting without their investment

look at the lasting impression gkg has forever molded into this former myth player's head about what it means to be THE CAPTAIN

To put everything in easy terms here is another example of fame boasting talent related to myth.

Iconoclasts the most successful b.net and play myth order stats wise, leader Unknown was #1 on Lore of the Comet (days ranked at #1) had the highest point total ever on b.net. To 90% of the players looking from the outside in it made him the best. In reality he was always the worst or 2nd worst player talent wise in the order and it was never close.

Status and accomplishments tend to boast the perception of a person to others.

the ranking system was more broken than the game itself and including 3rd party into said ranking system only broke it more.

Limp is correct.

I only used Phod as civil's captain example because his personality would better translate to now for him to stay at the same level. r00 and AT were more chill and probably would not give enough fucks.

Shut up nerds.

Asmodian wrote:3. Monkey Island

6. The Cagey Inquisition

7. MoR

tbh these 3 could possibly have won or made the finals of mwc01. People forget that after the civil guys stopped playing, MoR was the new dominant team until NP started doing well. The won the next major tourney after mwc00 which was Rolling Rock's NML2 I believe. I think MoR not winning mwc01 or getting to the finals was more due to their activity level falling off than anything else.
As for today, there are so few players and everyone knows everyone so well you pretty much know who wins the latest MWC just by looking at the rosters (hint: whichever team has GKG capping for them will win). These draft tourneys are much more interesting and competitive although every team has to have lesser skilled players on the roster as filler.
As for the comments about bottom bracket series being only 3 games, well, one of the biggest video game competitions in the world with one of the biggest prize pools (Dota 2's The International tournament) also has 3-game bottom bracket series.

Myrk wrote:

Asmodian wrote:3. Monkey Island

6. The Cagey Inquisition

7. MoR

tbh these 3 could possibly have won or made the finals of mwc01. People forget that after the civil guys stopped playing, MoR was the new dominant team until NP started doing well. The won the next major tourney after mwc00 which was Rolling Rock's NML2 I believe. I think MoR not winning mwc01 or getting to the finals was more due to their activity level falling off than anything else.
As for today, there are so few players and everyone knows everyone so well you pretty much know who wins the latest MWC just by looking at the rosters (hint: whichever team has GKG capping for them will win). These draft tourneys are much more interesting and competitive although every team has to have lesser skilled players on the roster as filler.
As for the comments about bottom bracket series being only 3 games, well, one of the biggest video game competitions in the world with one of the biggest prize pools (Dota 2's The International tournament) also has 3-game bottom bracket series.

The NFL and March Madness have even shorter series than that, which leads to a lot of upsets and the best team not winning many times. It's good for entertainment purposes, but not a good system for deciding who is best.

I had this idea before the smo thing started. I believe I spoke to wwo about it and he mentioned some scoring system he wanted to try. I said from day 1 of the draft tourney that I could not commit to capping. This is because I simply don't have time for it. Even capping this coming week (which I will) is already making me rush through another weekend. Get off my nuts. If I host the tourney I can make the dates work for me. I don't think its remarkable that I blow off video game obligations for real life. WITH THAT SAID:

I am offically announcing The Captain's Prestige™. This is an open invitation to all captains who wish to test their mettle against one another in honorable combat. I am working on a few ideas on how to make the field as even as possible. More to come in the near future. It will start around the 3rd or 4th weekend of September. I hope to have 4 teams.

Yea but myrk, arent dota games traditionally a lot longer than myth games? I don't play dota but from what I looked up ppl say an average game is 40-60 minutes. So 1 dota game could be as long as that entire 3 game myth match. Hard to compare game for game between different games when its more about the total duration of the match that people are committing time to. It seems kind of crazy to do 3 game myth matches unless u had to cram 2 matches into the same day or something.

Rat, you still showed up every match, a decent captain can cap without any prep work. Still would have been a lot better than what paris was doing.

I am not interested in doing anymore 4 team tournaments, they need to be 2 teams. The attendance and dilution of talent is way too shitty now with 4 teams. I was going to do a 2 team invitational all-star type match after asmo's tournament, but probably not if you are going to cluster it up with another shitty 4 team tournament. I just don't see how it would be any different than mwc or asmo's draft tourney.

well there is at least a 2 week gap if he does the 3rd or 4th week of September. That still leaves time to do some 2team match in between the 2 tournaments. Whats the format of this tournament Rat?

I'd rather pass out.

I'd say more between 20-40 on average (although there are occasional long ass games, I saw one that went over 100 minutes), but yeah, longer than your typical Myth game. Also the shorter bottom bracket match length probably has more to do with the fact it's done via LAN at a fancy venue and there are a lot of competing teams, hence time constraints.

That's true smo, I only need 1 sunday to do mine. so maybe the week after the finals of this tourney. I need to know what weekend yur not available though.

gkg literally that upset over my capping performance in week he can't get off deez nuts

maybe it has more to do with not letting slate up the hill in some meaningless 1v1

this dude certainly gets spiteful when things don't go the way he thinks they should

take a chill pill or make like a tree bro, don't worry about a retirement post because no one cares and we all know you'll be back

otherwise you should host the tournament and accept all challengers, in reality this 'grand 2-team tournament' idea is no different than the kickball league done before
(when i read rat's post i misread honorable for horrible combat)

Format is up for grabs at this point. The point is to see who the best caps are. If we only had 3 caps we could rotate the caps weekly and do a KB format. That way the talent is potent on either side.

It's a draft tourney. I just wanted to show up and play. For the record, I'm not the only person on the team. What do you want from me?

Rotate 3 caps kb* style to stroke you niggaz egos , that doesn't sound fun for me , I'm out . Do a 4 team style and I'm in .

rawr if you're offering to lead a squad that makes the 4 team option possible. We just need 4 caps to do it.

Sir Tirri, can you forgive me of my blasphemy and join me in a quest for All-Star glory? I am not greater than the GREAT Rabican.

You could say I was chimpin.

all-star glory for tirri? such a great idea

Limp - Cruniac = 4 - 1

http://gateofstorms.net/games/107772
http://gateofstorms.net/games/107773
http://gateofstorms.net/games/107775
http://gateofstorms.net/games/107776
http://gateofstorms.net/games/107777


Asmo - Paris = 5 - 0

http://gateofstorms.net/games/107762
http://gateofstorms.net/games/107769
http://gateofstorms.net/games/107770
http://gateofstorms.net/games/107771
http://gateofstorms.net/games/107774

limp wrote:asmodian considering himself on the same tier as rabican is downright hilarious

LOL
exactry

Asmodian wrote:Just to clarify I'm not saying I have achieved as much as Rabican or Ska. They have both achieved a lot more than me as captain, but yes I am saying I'm a better captain right now than they have ever been.

haha your're delusional
This shit did make me laugh though so thank you.

I guess I am confused, not saying Asmo is a bad Captain, but everyone calls Crun a terrible Captain. Asmo's team is far better than Cruns team, we tied them and should have beat them, so either Crun > Asmo at Captain, or people aren't really sure what they are talking about

Captain wrote:I guess I am confused, not saying Asmo is a bad Captain, but everyone calls Crun a terrible Captain. Asmo's team is far better than Cruns team, we tied them and should have beat them, so either Crun > Asmo at Captain, or people aren't really sure what they are talking about

I don't recall anyone calling Crun a terrible Captain. How "should" you have beaten my team?

Jesus Christ... The lineup mismatch for the Limp vs Crun match is LOL. Props to Crun for winning a game though.

Both matches were 1-sided shitshows, I'm glad there's no MVP week 3 cuz that'd be a joke