Myrgard

A few players have been asking for my help in improving. I have tried this many times in the past with various players over the years, and with little success usually.

After the whole camera control thread, I realized that people using bad controls was the #1 contributor to players playing bad myth, or just plateauing out at a sub-optimal level. This then made me realize that all the myth training about smart play in the world will do little or nothing to help the vast majority of players because their bad controls are the ultimate culprit. Controls are the foundation, and with a bad foundation, you can't build anything on top of that.

So I got a couple players now trying to learn my new controls, thought I would share with anyone else that wants to try. I really have no idea if it will help anyone improve, this is an experiment more than anything. It will take a lot of effort, and it is highly risky. But if you want to do it, then here it is. If it fails you, then no harm no foul, you can go back to your old controls, but you should give it an honest shot. I would say give it at least a month of regular activity to try to get used to it before considering anything.

If you learn my controls, and then want to further your training, I will be more inclined to help you with the smart play stuff afterward. I need a foundation first though.

So here it is, in order of precedence just in case anyone decides they only want to do part of these things. #1 is absolutely mandatory though.

#1) Camera Controls
This is the single most important thing on this list. This one is absolutely mandatory if you are going to make any changes, it has to start with this.

-Disable your WASD camera control keys on your keyboard. Just bind the panning camera keys to something that you will never use ([];', etc.)
-Enable mouse movement if you haven't already
-Disable everything in the bottom section of the controls screen in your preferences, except the mouse movement checkbox (from the previous point), and the system keyboard layout checkbox (though I have no idea what this does)

You should be using your Q and E keys a lot to orbit the camera to a PERFECT angle at all times. Sometimes it is needed just to setup a good click, etc. Incredibly important.
You will now be panning the camera up, down, and side-to-side with your mouse cursor only. The biggest advantages of this is that you should NEVER be moving the camera when you are trying to click something. You may do that when using your keyboard to move the camera, and mouse to select, but this intuitively reinforces it for you to not do that. That way your clicks are very accurate. Also, it frees up your keyboard hand to be a lot quicker with everything else, especially presets when needed. If you do not use the mouse wheel scroll to cycle presets, and use 4 or more presets, this is even more critical for you. Go do it, like right now.

#2) Observer Constants
You need a faster camera than the default speed. This should also be mandatory as well.

Go into fear, then go into observer constants.
you will see 7 buttons for different physical velocity constants with the camera (parallel, yaw, etc.). If you have never touched these before and are using the default values, just double them all. Or here is what they should be (both columns for positive / negative are always identical)

Parallel, Orthogonal
.006
.00121
.00101

Yaw, Orbit
.02
.005
.005

Pitch
.00101 on everything

Vertical
.00052
.00015
.00015

Zoom
.16
.02
.02

Really vertical, parallel, and orbit are the only important ones I think. Don't think you even use orthogonal or yaw with these control setups, might be for "turning" the camera, where it pivots on the top of your view, instead of the bottom like orbiting does. Never use that, only use orbit with Q and E.

3) Misc. Controls

-Rebind your taunt key to something easier to hit (I only did this recently in my 15 years of playing, and it was a small improvement and I got used to it quickly). I use tab which works great, easy for my pinky to hit. You may also try R, but I didn't use that because I felt like I might accidentally hit that key sometimes.
-Use the mouse scroll wheel for cycling presets. This is extremely important because it DOESN'T center the camera on the preset when it selects it, unlike how the F-key does when you press it. Very important distinction, If I want to center my camera on the preset, I use F. if not I use the mouse wheel.
-Use right click for de-select. this prevents a lot of misclicks, very important for when your clicking speed starts getting very fast like mine. What I use this for is when I am about to make a tough click that needs to be accurate (selecting a specific unit), I will make sure I deselect my current selection. That way if I do mis-click by clicking the ground instead, I don't just give a bad order to my previous selection to move there or attack or something, which would put me back 1 click as I now have to undo the mis-click I just made, which could be catastrophic. Deselect first to prevent anything. You can also use right click to select stuff if your point finger on your left mouse button is busy using the mouse scroll.
-Use ctrl-click for attack ground (not right mouse button or anything else). I have never had problems with this control, it is something that you want easy and fast to hit, but also near impossible to have a mis-click with. It has to be a more cautious click than anything else, because a bad ctrl click will fuck you. Having the right mouse button as your attack ground sets up possible mis-clicks with that. I have tried it, and never liked it. This is optional though.

4) Preset Controls

Get in the habit of only using 2 presets: your longest ranged units in the 1st preset, and your melee in the 2nd. Keep it simple. Everything else that is not in a preset can just be kept back anyway. When you get better you can try flanking stuff outside a preset, but really you could get by just fine and still improve considerably by just being good with a squad of units in 2 presets.

Force yourself to become reliant on box-selecting units with the mouse. The presets are only for moving the mass of your army around, which you can do very quickly with the mouse scroll preset cycle, which is great for dodging. This is why 2 presets is so good, you aren't reliant on them, and you can use the cycle very very fast and effectively. It is more flexible and intuitive in fights.

This is also optional, but still recommended. I can use up to 4 presets when i have a shitload of units in 1v1s, but the 3rd and 4th preset are always temporary presets for flanking pus ghols, and I always rebind it back to just 2 presets once I am done using them. Really you don't need to be good with anything more than 2 presets though, you just need to get a good clicking speed down and get good with box-selecting units to attack.

5) Formations

you can try mine if you want. The only one I would say is mandatory is my box formation. The rest are optional so long as you have a sufficient spread form on formations 3 and 4 (loose and staggered lines) of at least 2.5

short line:
30 per row
1 separation (1.0 is the separation point at which enemy units cannot move through your formation)

long line:
30 per row
0.35 separation (0.35 is the separation point at which you can get the maximum tightness out of clumping your units

loose line:
6 per row
3.5 separation (this is a good number for being spread enough for wide area damage attacks such as lock shots, so that if they have a direct hit on 1 unit which is blocking, it will only hit that 1 unit.

staggered line:
8 per row
2.5 separation (good spread for smaller area damage attacks such as dorfs or fetch)

Box:
0.35 separation (very important formation, go change this now if you have it different)

mob: this is only handy for some co-op maps where you will be completely surrounded and need your archers to be able to fire quickly in 360 degrees without moving around too much in their formation
1.5
1.5

encirclement (I have never found a good use for this, if you can, feel free to adjust):
3
1
90
120

vanguard: this would be handy for using stygs or melee to block archer shots for a dorf sitting behind the formation. I usually use a box for that though, and not this, because it is too hard to press.
0.35
1
1

Circle: I do use this rarely, usually for flag defenses, usually with thrall in the circle, and putting a dorf in the middle. Can do a decent job of blocking pus too. It can be very effective.
1.0

6) Other points of interest
Other things not control related that can help your game and you should check out: any of my strategy articles, my youtube channel, and my thread about meleeing.

Alright so that should be just about it. Get used to all of this and I will teach you more. Let me know if you are going to try it out and how it goes.

Giant Killer General wrote:system keyboard layout checkbox (though I have no idea what this does)

This is basically for international keyboards and controls whether keys are treated like the raw inputs from a standard layout keyboard or if they are treated as the "translated" keys based on your operating system setting. Shouldn't make any difference if this is on or off for US or near-US keyboard layouts.

Btw might want to just attach your observer constants and formations files for people who want to give them a try as-is. You can find them in "local/formations" and "local/observer constants" respectively.

Yeah, so I have that checked because I use a nonstandard keyboard layout (dvorak) and if I didn't my keys would be all over the place instead of just re-mapped to the different keys in the same place. One thing that gave me trouble is that now the special attack T button is mapped to Y--it took a bit of getting used to, suffice to say. My Q and E keys are ' and . respectively.

punkUser wrote:Btw might want to just attach your observer constants and formations files for people who want to give them a try as-is. You can find them in "local/formations" and "local/observer constants" respectively.

ok cool thx for the headsup, didn't know that.

but how do i upload stuff here?

I think it's pretty clear that most of us have settled into our respective roles by 2013. All Plateaus have been reached and are being walked.

For Example Jahral Toad, someone with room for improvement, no doubt there are numerous simple changes he could make, and yet he remains unchanged. Most appear to be content to suck, it's what allows me to look down on my fellow mythers with contempt.

I myself will read this article though, take your secrets and become the best Myther ever, defeat you at 1 v 1 20 games in a row destroy your pride and sit on Myths throne. Once Im at the top I won't be telling anyone how to improve, I'll be telling them they suck and should improve, but not how.

You will fade in time, and I will remain, Homer, the best Myther, the last Myther, the greatest.

THE MASTER OF MOUSE WHEEL PRESETS.

I do most of this already and am still bad.

well which part do you not do? that would be helpful information with a comment like that.

Deselect with ` gkg, not with your mouse.
I also don't get the idea behind 2 presets, why would that be better than 3 or 4? (I'm guessing it has something to do with switching presets with your mousewheel).

sorry, not sure why I even said that, it adds nothing to the conversation. I haven't increased my observer constants and don't use the preset select on scroll wheel or right click un select. I actually like both of those ideas and will probably try them out. Most of the rest of it I have always done.

I'm not sure if i will change the orbit speed, I tend to click the mini map if i want to move somewhere fast. I also use at least 3 presets, my typical is dwarf 1, archers 2, melee 3, pus 4. I'll try using only 3.

i am aware that the grave key is the default key for de-select. I have tried it, i find it to be sub-optimal because I use it so frequently.

using 2 presets can be very good because:

A) with only 2, u can cycle those 2 back and forth very easily, quickly, and intuitively with the mouse scroll wheel. It maximizes your control over the bulk of your army in those 2 presets, which are your most active units, requiring the most and quickest clicks (especially for dodging arrows), usually most everything else you do not need to be fighting with at the same time, and can be kept back.

B) it removes your reliance on presets. presets can be a real crutch if you use too many and get too used to them. You need to have a good box-select skill as well. As you increase the number of presets you use, it gets to a certain point where I can box-select that unit just as fast or faster than you could in thinking about which preset it is to select it, and then hitting that preset. I expose people that are overly dependent on presets all of the time in 1v1, often involving sending a bunch of melee straggler around to harrass their range units or pus. A player dependent on presets is now taken outside their comfort zone, because the proper defense to that is to send out melee stragglers of your own, and now they can't use any preset for that.

C) It builds that box-selecting skill and speed. I am reliant and dependent on box-selecting instead, which is perfect because it is completely flexible and allows me to do anything I want my mind can imagine with the units.

I look at myth as some kind of mental martial art. In that light, I take some wisdom from the philosophies of Bruce Lee, who once said:

"Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend."

That is kind of what myth can be like, you should be formless and shapeless, completely flexible and adaptable to the fight. Then you confuse your opponent, he fumbles on his presets, and you start getting ahead of him on the clicks. And then you make big plays.

Giant Killer General wrote: but how do i upload stuff here?

Just use the "upload attachment" button below when posting. You'll probably need to zip them as the board doesn't allow extension-less files.

Yes I do not see that option or button anywhere.

Hmm ok permissions might be screwy, give me a bit to sort it out.

[Edit] Ok try it now.

Okay works now.

Everyone see my files at the bottom of the original post.

Also I forgot to mention that when you use right click as deselect, you can still use it select units when nothing is selected. What that means is I will use my right click as my box select, and my left click as my click. This means that i can click VERY fast, because I don't have to let go of the mouse key to click again, I select with one and click with the other. You get into a rhythm, very quick combination click and you can do things super fast as demonstrated in my youtube videos.

Thanks GKG. I tried using these setting last night. It will take some getting used to. I have had some of the same control setup that you do I am wondering which do you think are most important and which I could maybe leave as I have without having a negative effect. Here is the setup I have pretty much always used compared to your set up.

Camera: I use the same way you do with just q and e to orbit and the mouse for everything else.
For speed I have it a little faster than you do but I have the acceleration slower. I slowed it down because I found it hard to get just small movements of the camera without over shooting. The slow acceleration helps this and it still goes to maximum speed pretty quickly.

Presets: This is different. I'll tell you how I use them and maybe you can explain how you do some of the things I do, with your setup. This is something I was having problems figuring out last night when trying your set up.

I use this key ---> ~ (tilde with shift) for set recall presets. Because the ` key is inline with the number keys. I can set and recall them very fast with this. I basically just roll or strum my fingers. Like this for 1 and 2 it is middle finger ` key index finger 1-2. For 3-4: ring finger ` index finger 3-4. For 5-6 sometimes 7 it pinky finger ` index finger 5-6-7.

I have the presets in order of the units I use most. I have Arcs or Souls 1. Melee 2. Ghols 3. Dwarf or fetch or lock 4. Jman 5 (sometimes I will put heron on this as a sub group if they are on 2 with other melee) 6-7 For miscellaneous units usually like a flanking unit.

1-2 I use a lot the rest not very much cause I use box select but I like to have them on presets just in case.

With having that many presets I can select units even if they are off screen. So if I have ghols flanking I can select them to attack a unit without needing to find the ghol and select it. Same with dwarfs and Jmen.

With your set up how do you do this? That is something I was having problems with by having only 2 presets. How do you select off screen units if not on a preset? Or dont you and never really need to?

I tried and think I will keep the mouse wheel to cycle presets as I think that will be fastest. One issue with that many presets and using the mouse wheel is knowing for sure which preset you have it on. But you can tell with the status bar it may take some getting used to. I like the idea of having multiple ways to select presets I think thats good.

Box selecting is something that I have always used, but after watching your videos I realized I wasnt using it enough. I have been working on using it for selecting even individual units since you dont have to be so accurate as trying to click directly on a unit. I also noticed it looked like that if you wanted to send 1 unit that was in a clump of a few other units a different way than the rest. You would sometimes box select a few units start moving them all then just minus the units you didnt want to move and be left with the one you did. This looks much faster at getting that one unit moving. VS trying to pick the one unit out of a group.


"Empty your mind, be formless. Shapeless, like water. If you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup. You put water into a bottle and it becomes the bottle. You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now, water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend."

That is true for Myth and a problem I often have. For whatever reason sometimes I just cant focus on Myth (thinking about other stuff. Like work ) But the times that I can just empty my mind it is like you said. I just need to practice getting to that place.

if you dont use presets 3-5 very much, just dont use them. break out of that habit. you can select them manually probably just as fast once you get used to it. your box selecting and mouse-wheel preset cycle will get much faster then. Anything over 5 presets I think is just crazy, at that point my brain would slow down too much trying to figure out which number preset I need, and my hand would have to stretch too much just to select the preset. I would have selected the needed units manually twice as fast at that point.

on the off-occasion that I use more than 2 presets, my 3 and 4 preset will be for flanking ghols off screen. however I don't really HAVE to do this, i find it a bit more work, so it depends how lazy I am feeling. it is also temporary, as soon as I am done with them, I reset my presets back to just the first 2. These are the only units that should be off-screen that should even be under consideration for additional presets. However, I can get by just fine without it. What I do is flank the ghols out really wide so by the time i send them in to attack its going to take them 20-30 seconds or so just to get there. Then i move my main force back outside of range of the enemy, click on the mini-map to where my flanking ghols are at, send them in, and go back to my main force. then I send my main force in. Ideally, everything hits the enemy at the same time, and by the time my ghols get close they are on my screen again so I can control them again if needed. That is how you set up powerful attack combinations where it will be like 3 people attacking your opponent at once.

Here is another reason why I think being overly dependent on presets is bad. Let's say I have a preset for each of my locks, and in my lock battle I want to move them back and forth quickly. My mouse cursor could be ANYWHERE on the screen from controlling other stuff at any given time. But regardless of how I want to select my lock, with a preset or just by clicking, my mouse cursor still has to move over to near where the lock is, to click on the ground near it to move it in that direction. So if I select the lock manually, my cursor is now right next to where I need, and right when I need it, to click on the ground. With a preset-select, I am still going to have to make that same movement. So box-selecting is every bit as efficient as presets in the vast majority of cases, and it has tons of other benefits as well that come with it.

Right click deselecting units... holy shit. I think this makes my mything atleast 10% better when I get used to it. Mainly why I use presets is becouse it takes forever to deselect units (500ms). For some reason I have never used this deselect-function before, although there is a button assigned to it on keyboard. After playing 13 years with only 1 button mouse I finally got a mouse with more buttons, most importantly right-click. I assigned attack ground on it. It's useful, but I think I need to get used to it deselecting units. So much faster. Thanks for the tip

yea gekk that's awesome that it helps. also as I mentioned before, I actually didn't realize this recently, but what I find myself doing is using that right click de-select as actually my box-select too. You can only select stuff with the right click de-select if it is already deselected of everything. So it intuitively enforces this for you so that you pretty much can't make a misclick with a bad unit selection.

Also it's really nice that you can box-select with the right click and attack/move with the left click. you get this click combination going that is very fast. if you were to do it all with 1 click, you would have to first select, then let go of the mouse button before you could click again, right? but by using both mouse buttons, I can effectively select with the right, and click right away with the left (letting go of the right mouse button and click with the left at the exact same time instead of waiting). I know you would probably only be talking about an increased speed of like 10-50ms but it is a pretty neat rhythm, and since you click that way so often, it could add up a bit significantly!

A-huh ! Well this makes sense GeeKayGee. After watching your gameplay vids I was wondering to myself if you had somehow found a setting in fear to speed up the box selecting and clicking speed... because when I tried to replicated your speed it was not working. When i was trying to box selecting new units, instead I was moving the previously selected units to a new spot. A-huh A-huh A-huh !!!

same problem as van which is way i disabled just click so it doesnt do that anymore