Zaks upcoming 2 team map pack

[Zak]

List of maps that are going to be featured in this map pack:

acts√
BOLSTERING OF DOUBT LOL√
poison holiday√
grave reason√
barb valley√
broken arrow√
caer cadarn√
creep√
stalk√
dun caric√
fosgarach√
grilling√
hvergelmir√
whirlwind√
knuckle√
krak√
keep√
lichen√
mjila√
mockingbird√
nureonna√
zodiac√
raisin barn√
shuffle√
sieve√
smells√
tamaerlin√
thaw√
the barrens√
four leaved fen√
great divide√


If there are any known bugs, spots one can scuba dwarves/melee/trow, or just small changes that would make any of these maps better, let me know.

I'll be making new unit trades for each map.

[Zak]

Okay let me pose a few questions to the competitive myth populace. Assuming the balance, animations and lore of these units meshed seamlessly with myth, which of these units would you be okay with having integrated into regular myth play?

1. A giant (trow sized) that was heron guard speed, but can travel underwater. It can't climb steep terrain like a forest giant. Special ability is to roll into a ball and blend in with similar shaped rocks on the map. Trow health. Costs 24 points



2. A ranged unit with a melee attack as strong as a breunor. A ranged attack weaker than bres, souls, or archers. It can also travel through deep water (sinking, not floating). Moves at archer speed. Bre'Unor health. Costs 3 points



3. A warlock who shoots a small and weak fireball for 25% of its mana, at a little less than warlock distance. It has a special where it launches a pair of flame tendrils that spread throughout the units it targeted, before extinguishing itself. Warlock health. Costs 8 points



4. A unit with a lightning-based attack like the fetch, using the same range and dealing the same damage. It also sets the ground on fire, when it attacks. Each time it uses this ability it exhausts all its mana, which it regenerates at warlock speed. Has a melee like the journeyman, along with 7 heals. Warlock health, and speed. Costs 12 points



5. A spider-like unit, with the same speed, attack rate, damage, and health. The only difference is it can travel across water (floating). Costs 1 point.



6. A giant unit with a melee attack similar to a myrkridian giant. Health is also around the same level, making it more of a sub-giant. It has the speed of a heron guard. It has a special ability that exhausts all of its mana and can only be used twice per game. It breathes a magic dust in a line, and anything caught within it is turned to stone. This breath is easy to dodge. This effect can be reversed by being healed, but while a unit is stoned it is considerably weaker. Costs 18 points.



7. An archer that appears to be from TFL (a Fir'Bolg). The main difference is that it has a special like the myth2 archer, which consumes the 1 ammo they have for it. This special is a "fever" arrow, and will freeze enemies just like a small pus, if they are hit by it. Costs 3 points.

[Dantski]

The only one of those which is acceptable is the Fir'Bolg that can shoot a pus arrow.

[Zak]

The only one of those which is acceptable is the Fir'Bolg that can shoot a pus arrow.

Can you explain why the others are unacceptable, and list some suggestions that would make them tolerable?

We have bonemen, lichen generals, thell warriors, spider queens, and thrall elite that are used in MWC, whats so different about these units?

If they are overpowered, I could understand that and tweak it. Is there some other issue? I believe that integrating new units is no different than new maps. It forces players to play the game in new ways.

[Dantski]

Mostly its because of the special abilities, some of the units you're proposing are basically just TSG units and don't "feel" right.

1. The giant that can go underwater and then "blend in" with other rocks. Meh a giant unit that can go underwater? How much damage does it do? How resistant is it to damage? Can it be pussed or frozen? The blending in ability sounds kinda pointless as people will still be able to easily spot it and kill it right?

2. This thing does not look anything like a regular myth unit. Also an archer than can go underwater. It sounds like it would get destroyed by any other ranged unit.

3. Kinda depends on how the special works, how much mana it costs and how much damage it does. Its a maybe.

4. So its a healer with fetch characteristics (bit lower hp and no lightning resist), which can set a patch of ground on fire with its special attack? It can also melee? But hold on a sec it has a special attack that sets ground on fire but can heal as well? How does that work?

5. So its a wasp, my only objection to this is its not mythy. Didn't someone make a water spider unit once? That would fit better.

6. Stoning ability sounds really annoying and you haven't explained how it works. Just no.

7. Fine, this is just a Chimera unit that fits in fine.

We have bonemen, lichen generals, thell warriors, spider queens, and thrall elite that are used in MWC, whats so different about these units?

Bonemen, thell and thrall elite are fine because they are simple melee units and don't do anything flashy. Aside from thell they also fit in with other myth units. Spider queens would be fine if they didn't have a ridiculous sprint and they only appeared last MWC because Renwood assured us that it had been fixed. You're right about the Lichen generals, they don't fit but they have been part of tournaments for a long time so no-one really cares.

[NewMutator]

This thing does not look anything like a regular myth unit.

The Skrael is a Bungie-made unit that was never implemented.

[Dantski]

Well now we know why it wasn't implemented!

[NewMutator]

I say go for it and test it out. Don't make the mistake of introducing too many changes at once though. Generals are already accepted into the tournament canon; there's no reason to think other units cannot be either, particularly if they introduce interesting new gameplay mechanics like the gen's force field does.

[Zak]

Before I start to respond, let me say I appreciate you taking the time to critique each unit. Please understand that I am not trying to argue, merely have a discussion.

Mostly its because of the special abilities, some of the units you're proposing are basically just TSG units and don't "feel" right.

You are correct, 3 of the 7 units are from TSG. However that is merely because TSG units are some of the best looking units at the same resolution as reg myth units. I chose the dracona and troll for their ability to blend in with regular myth units. Most 3rd party giants have shitty/awkward animations and their resolution is too different from regular myth.

As for the special abilities, these can be toned down or removed. However that would completely negate the purpose of the new unit, unless we came up with new special abilities that work better with reg myth (I am totally for that!). I do not want to add overpowered 3rd party units to reg myth.

1. The giant that can go underwater and then "blend in" with other rocks. Meh a giant unit that can go underwater? How much damage does it do? How resistant is it to damage? Can it be pussed or frozen? The blending in ability sounds kinda pointless as people will still be able to easily spot it and kill it right?

The blending in ability is a little silly, it mostly just gives the unit flavor. A trow has no special ability and neither does this troll. However in its defense, this special ability DOES make it duck, which could feasibly be used to dodge artillery. Also it does do a pretty damn good job of blending in with rocks, but if you have a flamboyant color it doesn't work as well. The selection box for this giant while blending in, is very small. You would need to hold your mouse over several rocks before pinpointing it. Or look at the map, obviously.

While the giant can go underwater, their speed is much slower than that of a trow, forest giant, or even myrkridian giant. I feel this negates the advantage of traveling underwater, and would make it more of a tactical unit than a BC unit. It would do the same damage as a trow, at the same attack speed or slower. I wanted to make it the same damage resistance as a trow is, but weaker to explosives. As of right now it can't be frozen, but I have no problem changing that. I want it to be balanced, however, and if it needs to be weak to lightning/explosives, then I am all for that.

If you HAD to have it in your plugin, what would you like it to have for damage/health/speed values?

2. This thing does not look anything like a regular myth unit. Also an archer than can go underwater. It sounds like it would get destroyed by any other ranged unit.

This is a fair argument. If it isn't the same resolution or doesn't blend in with myth units then it can't be helped.

But what is the issue with an archer that can go underwater? Soulless can go over water. The ability to sink would protect it from potential rushes. The ability to cross rivers and the health/melee it has would make it an almost independent force. These guys could create some opportunities that would otherwise not be there.

It is basically a bre'unor with reduced speed. So yeah it would be the worst of the 4 (arcs, souls, bre), however if used in the correct unit set, and on a map where units can travel underwater is a huge advantage, these guys would be valued.

3. Kinda depends on how the special works, how much mana it costs and how much damage it does. Its a maybe.

I've spent more time testing and tweaking this unit and the stoning giant than any other on this list.I spent a month working on, along with the stoning giant, with another player. If the damage values, mana costs, and other aspects are balanced, would this unit be okay?

4. So its a healer with fetch characteristics (bit lower hp and no lightning resist), which can set a patch of ground on fire with its special attack? It can also melee? But hold on a sec it has a special attack that sets ground on fire but can heal as well? How does that work?

So like a fetch, its primary is the lightning/fire attack. The secondary is the journeyman healing. The melee occurs when a target is too close to use the lightning attack (about the same distance too close for a dwarf or warlock to attack).

5. So its a wasp, my only objection to this is its not mythy. Didn't someone make a water spider unit once? That would fit better.

Why is a giant spider more mythy than a giant wasp? I would be fine using a water spider, although I worry that it would look funny running across the water, and would confuse players who thought it was a regular spider. With the wings, the wasp makes it clear that it can cross any terrain.

6. Stoning ability sounds really annoying and you haven't explained how it works. Just no.

I tried to explain how it works. It shoots in a straight line, with a telegraphed windup before the projectile even fires (giant rears back its head, then leans forward to use this ability). Pressing the b button upon seeing this would save 80% of your units. If you're not clumped, it would be a waste to use this special. The range is probably less than that of a fetch. I would only put this guy on maps with plenty of herons/journeymen, to quickly negate the effects of the stoning.

It would be a tactical special, not a "kill everything in front of you" special. It technically does no damage.

Bonemen, thell and thrall elite are fine because they are simple melee units and don't do anything flashy. Aside from thell they also fit in with other myth units.

Bonemen are a fast melee unit that can sink underwater, arguably a large change to the dynamics of myth, considering before them it was just wights and thrall going underwater.

Thrall elite are arguably overpowered, however since they are in a unit trade that makes them almost worthless, they are accepted.

Thell warriors have an incredibly fast attack speed, have a very low freeze time when pussed, and a whacky special ability. Not to mention they're a TSG unit. I think if they were not introduced to MWC before now and I had them on this list, you would have similar complaints about them as well.

I think that at least 3-4 of these units could become as accepted as the 3rd party units already used in MWC.

You're right about the Lichen generals, they don't fit but they have been part of tournaments for a long time so no-one really cares.

The general allows players to carpet bomb with dwarves on a light map. Putting it into perspective, it is arguably worse than any other special ability mentioned thus far. If this is accepted over time, couldn't these other units?

If my response is too long, and you didn't read, I apologize.

[wwo]

Way too feedback-oriented, zak. Visionaries don't look for critiques along the way. Do it exactly the way you want to, and tweak it later.

[Zak]

Way too feedback-oriented, zak. Visionaries don't look for critiques along the way. Do it exactly the way you want to, and tweak it later.

Right but I'm designing a plugin aimed at a particular demographic of mythers. If it doesn't meet their needs or their standards, its a waste of time.

I'm just looking to avoid mistakes so I don't have to keep making new versions of the same plugin, and having fiascos like the ffa pack.

[Vantobia]

Heh, what the hell I would give them all a play. I think the units that are not overly complex are the way to go. Units with more than 2 or 3 abilities can get annoying.

Its fucking great the stuff you do Zak, Myth is better to have you. No homo.

[Dantski]

If my response is too long, and you didn't read, I apologize.

Not at all, TLDR is for idiots.

I think one thing I didn't say in my previous post was the state of myth in relation to introducing new units. Since myth is utterly dead outside of tournaments now (euro times anyway!) new units are not going to be played and tested before a match.

I don't share your sentiment on new units not being much different from new maps. Maps change where the units go not he actual units themselves. Its like when you released Remnants of Harrenhall, the main thing to adapt to was the wacky units on 1-2 unitsets not so much the map itself.

While the giant can go underwater, their speed is much slower than that of a trow, forest giant, or even myrkridian giant. I feel this negates the advantage of traveling underwater, and would make it more of a tactical unit than a BC unit. It would do the same damage as a trow, at the same attack speed or slower. I wanted to make it the same damage resistance as a trow is, but weaker to explosives. As of right now it can't be frozen, but I have no problem changing that. I want it to be balanced, however, and if it needs to be weak to lightning/explosives, then I am all for that.

I guess I overreacted on the underwater thing as it depends on what map its on, but being able to traverse a large distance unseen with a giant unitseems very irritating. Imagine what this units could do on creep, it could threaten 2 flanks at once and you wouldn't be able to track it. If its basically a Troll then I agree on resistances but it certainly needs to be weaker than a trow.

If you HAD to have it in your plugin, what would you like it to have for damage/health/speed values?

It depends what other units are on the map and would also require testing. If its on the same maps as berserks but is slower that makes it somewhat vulnerable to being trapped, on the other hand that also kinda balances it because of it can be sunk. Damage I'd make relevant to trading value, if its 24 then it needs to be able to kill warriors/zerks or have the chance to in 1 hit. If its damage was lowered to do the same as a dwarf bottle for instance, then the trading cost could be 16 or something. How much do these units heal?

But what is the issue with an archer that can go underwater?

Undetectable and untargetable, now you could argue that you could put warlocks or mortars on the same map but then they would be rendered worthless IMO. Honestly not sure what sort of units you'd pair with them. With a dark unitset they'd be murdered, on light they'd be ignored for the same reason archers are mostly ignored.

I've spent more time testing and tweaking this unit and the stoning giant than any other on this list.I spent a month working on, along with the stoning giant, with another player. If the damage values, mana costs, and other aspects are balanced, would this unit be okay?

Without seeing it in action its impossible to say, but the impression you've given suggests you could tendril a melee unit in front of their archers for instance then it would spread and hurt the archers depending on how close they are.

So like a fetch, its primary is the lightning/fire attack. The secondary is the journeyman healing. The melee occurs when a target is too close to use the lightning attack (about the same distance too close for a dwarf or warlock to attack).

Ok thanks for clarifying, I'm curious at how this works as it kinda does everything while not being that amazing.

Why is a giant spider more mythy than a giant wasp? I would be fine using a water spider, although I worry that it would look funny running across the water, and would confuse players who thought it was a regular spider. With the wings, the wasp makes it clear that it can cross any terrain.

Just because spiders were in the myth story and wasps were not. I think your argument that people would get used to units applies just as well to the water spider.

I tried to explain how it works. It shoots in a straight line, with a telegraphed windup before the projectile even fires (giant rears back its head, then leans forward to use this ability). Pressing the b button upon seeing this would save 80% of your units. If you're not clumped, it would be a waste to use this special. The range is probably less than that of a fetch. I would only put this guy on maps with plenty of herons/journeymen, to quickly negate the effects of the stoning.

Let me clarify what I was asking, what effect does the stoning have? Is it obvious what units are affected? (greyish colour maybe?) Is the effect permanent until healing? Do these units act as derpy as Paris when stoned?

Bonemen are a fast melee unit that can sink underwater, arguably a large change to the dynamics of myth, considering before them it was just wights and thrall going underwater.

Well there were ghasts too, bonemen would be a big problem if their HP and attack was good, however they die easily and don't match up well to most melee so they aren't a problem. Incidentally what map were they on in MWC? I don't remember using them.

Thrall elite are arguably overpowered, however since they are in a unit trade that makes them almost worthless, they are accepted

This goes back to the thread about changing myth units etc, some units are inherently weak with other units on the field. Would thrall elite be brokenly strong on creep instead of thrall? If you say yes then I'd ask do you think warriors are brokenly strong on most light maps? Having a unit be strong is not the same as too strong.

Thell warriors have an incredibly fast attack speed, have a very low freeze time when pussed, and a whacky special ability. Not to mention they're a TSG unit. I think if they were not introduced to MWC before now and I had them on this list, you would have similar complaints about them as well.

If you have time, might be interesting to check replays from ER1 and see who chose to get Thell warriors and who chose to get Stygs primarily. They have the same trading value as berserks, don't fight quite as well (I guess they lose to zerks 1v1), are slower than zerks, freeze for same time as zerks. Essentially they are better warriors but poorer berserks right? I didn't comment on the special because I don't think its ever been relevant to winning or losing an engagement. Feel free to point out times its made a difference though.

[c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊]

I like all units. They're all classics, it suprises me people don't know of them yet. The only ones I don't think would translate well into multiplay are the warlock elder, the bre shaman, and possibly the dracona. Both the warlock elder and the bre shaman's attacks are a bit too finnicky for twitch play. I'd actually rather see elven archers to balance out dark arty / trow. I'd also like to see a light map where you can get 3 Gor-Ash that act as giant units of sorts. People are lame though.

Wasps are way better than "water spiders" wtf dant.

Another reason TSG units work well is that they were always designed to play alongside reg units like duffs, arcs, wars, etc. It's not just that they're pretty or we'd be seeing zak proposing Bushido units too, for example, which are awesome but unbalanced for reg play.

[East Wind tmnt]

I agree w. van- thanks zak. You're one of the only people actively making maps and trying diff stuff - so definite props.

[punkUser]

The only ones I don't think would translate well into multiplay are the warlock elder

On this note, have people played with putting the frost lock into MP directly as it was in TSG? Not sure how it would fall out balance/UT-cost--wise, but at least compared to regular warlocks it isn't terribly overpowered or anything IIRC.

[Asmodian]

I forget what you said earlier in these post, but I think you should just focus on adding one of the units The Underwater Giant Troll. It would be a good idea to make a map specifically for this unit instead of just randomly throwing it on a bunch of maps (sort of like lichen and the general). Also i'm surprised you haven't tried adding the modified calvary you made for my map into some of your newer maps. to me it would be the perfect light map Power unit that is balanced and looks very good/mythy.

The only ones I don't think would translate well into multiplay are the warlock elder

On this note, have people played with putting the frost lock into MP directly as it was in TSG? Not sure how it would fall out balance/UT-cost--wise, but at least compared to regular warlocks it isn't terribly overpowered or anything IIRC.

Frost Warlock not over powered? Have you played with them at all?

They are definitely over powered. There is no way to block their frost shot and you pretty much can't dodge it. Your only option is staying max range.

[punkUser]

Frost Warlock not over powered? Have you played with them at all?

Not in MP, hence the question

They are definitely over powered. There is no way to block their frost shot and you pretty much can't dodge it. Your only option is staying max range.

IIRC they're a fair bit shorter ranged than standard warlocks though right?

[Zak]

I don't share your sentiment on new units not being much different from new maps. Maps change where the units go not he actual units themselves. Its like when you released Remnants of Harrenhall, the main thing to adapt to was the wacky units on 1-2 unitsets not so much the map itself.

But Remnants of Harrenhall only had the If I had a Trow unit trade used in MWC. The issue with the map was how large it was, and the complete lack of a mid accessible to non-sinkable units. This resulted in one side of the map getting rushed, or an entire army being forced to go one-prong. Thats what made my map a failure, imo.

I guess I overreacted on the underwater thing as it depends on what map its on, but being able to traverse a large distance unseen with a giant unitseems very irritating. Imagine what this units could do on creep, it could threaten 2 flanks at once and you wouldn't be able to track it. If its basically a Troll then I agree on resistances but it certainly needs to be weaker than a trow.

It depends what other units are on the map and would also require testing. If its on the same maps as berserks but is slower that makes it somewhat vulnerable to being trapped, on the other hand that also kinda balances it because of it can be sunk. Damage I'd make relevant to trading value, if its 24 then it needs to be able to kill warriors/zerks or have the chance to in 1 hit. If its damage was lowered to do the same as a dwarf bottle for instance, then the trading cost could be 16 or something. How much do these units heal?

Hopefully there will be faster units on the map than it, but even if there is not, trow and forest giants are still the fastest units on a map. Often the best hope of chasing a trow/forest giant is to have one with more health doing the chasing.

Lets talk about resistances of the troll. The trow is extremely resistant to lightning and explosives. For this unit to be useful as a giant, it should probably have a similar, albeit weaker resistance. I think to address the difficulty tracking it, we should allow it to be pussed. Maybe healing it should do nothing. Does that make it seem more balanced?

Undetectable and untargetable, now you could argue that you could put warlocks or mortars on the same map but then they would be rendered worthless IMO. Honestly not sure what sort of units you'd pair with them. With a dark unitset they'd be murdered, on light they'd be ignored for the same reason archers are mostly ignored.

I think it depends on the map. I intended to put them on swampy maps where deep water forces units to take long detours to cross the map. Having a unit (even a ranged one) that could go right through them could offer a lot of strategic value, even if most units could kick its ass. Then if the enemy tries to rush it, they could slither back into the water. Not to mention that they could go into the river at one area, then have a dozen pop up out of the water somewhere else, pinching an enemy. Then when the enemy engages them, they go back into the water again. I think you're underestimating their value.

Unit sets I would ideally pair them with would be light, a hybrid of light/dark, or if its straight dark then avoid putting morts on the map with them.

Without seeing it in action its impossible to say, but the impression you've given suggests you could tendril a melee unit in front of their archers for instance then it would spread and hurt the archers depending on how close they are.

Thats correct, but it has a short lifespan. Basically, you have to have units close enough for the tendrils to chain from unit to unit.

Just because spiders were in the myth story and wasps were not. I think your argument that people would get used to units applies just as well to the water spider.

You have a good point, I just wish I could do something to make them look different from normal spider!

Let me clarify what I was asking, what effect does the stoning have? Is it obvious what units are affected? (greyish colour maybe?) Is the effect permanent until healing? Do these units act as derpy as Paris when stoned?

So a unit that is stoned turns grey, and the effect is permanent until healed. If these units are hit while stoned, more damage is dealt than normal.

An alternative that occurs to me, would be to give the giant a pus breath attack, merely freezing enemies in a line instead of requiring them to be healed to be unfrozen.

I think the stoning breath would be more fun though!

Well there were ghasts too, bonemen would be a big problem if their HP and attack was good, however they die easily and don't match up well to most melee so they aren't a problem. Incidentally what map were they on in MWC? I don't remember using them.

They were used on mockingbird, and then on my shitty "zak on the borderlands" plugin, in MWC. Their HP is weak (although resistant to arrows and lightning), and their attack doesn't deal much damage. However they are fast melee, with a fast attack rate. They can ambush you from the water, and surround your artillery very quickly.

This goes back to the thread about changing myth units etc, some units are inherently weak with other units on the field. Would thrall elite be brokenly strong on creep instead of thrall? If you say yes then I'd ask do you think warriors are brokenly strong on most light maps? Having a unit be strong is not the same as too strong.

No you're completely right about units being too strong on some maps, and inherently weak on others. Thats why I think if I use these new units with the correct unit sets, they'll merely complement the map instead of making them the focus of it.

If you have time, might be interesting to check replays from ER1 and see who chose to get Thell warriors and who chose to get Stygs primarily. They have the same trading value as berserks, don't fight quite as well (I guess they lose to zerks 1v1), are slower than zerks, freeze for same time as zerks. Essentially they are better warriors but poorer berserks right? I didn't comment on the special because I don't think its ever been relevant to winning or losing an engagement. Feel free to point out times its made a difference though.

On the map you're talking about in ER1, I think thells would have been a mistake. Stygians and myrmighasts were so much more useful due to the campiness of the map and dominance of fetch/souls. If it had been a rushy map where pus was a factor, getting them would have been smart.

So warriors and berserks have a health of 5.5 (numbers irrelevant, just used for context). Thell warriors have a health of 6.5, a 40% resistance to kinetic damage, a 50% resistance to fire damage, and a 60% faster pus freezing recovery. Thell warriors deal the exact same amount of damage as berserks do, but attack at the same speed as normal warriors. Berserks also have the attack speed bonus when injured, as well as the running speed advantage. I would say thell are basically berserks wearing magic armor and carrying a shield.

But this comes back to your very true statement of a unit balance being more of the entire unit trade, than a single unit. Thell warriors are the most important unit on hvergelmir because of the inherent rushiness of that map, and the amount of pus available. They will unfreeze faster, run faster, take more punishment, and deal more damage, than the regular warrior.

So if I properly test these new units, balance them, and place them with a unit set where they aren't too weak/too strong, could you see them being "reggish"?

[Zak]

Frost Warlock not over powered? Have you played with them at all?

Not in MP, hence the question

They are definitely over powered. There is no way to block their frost shot and you pretty much can't dodge it. Your only option is staying max range.

IIRC they're a fair bit shorter ranged than standard warlocks though right?

Frost warlocks attack with a parabola arc, instead of the standard warlock straight line attack. This is both a weakness and a strength. Should a frost warlock be on a completely flat map, and try to win a fight vs a mortar, archer pack, or warlock, he will lose. If venice were the test to see if a new warlock is a balanced unit, the frost warlock would be declared underpowered.

However, almost every map the frost warlock is on, in my ffa map pack, has numerous hills. Since the parabola attack increases distance on hills, like a dwarf, the frost warlock becomes the most dominant unit. Fetch, warlocks, dwarves, all become helpless to avoid his shots being sent over the lips of hills. If it were just a dwarf bottle, it wouldnt be so bad. However the icicle freezes the units, then blows them up. Once you're frozen by it, your unit is just about dead.

So asmodian is right, but I would argue that it was just my poor planning that made that unit so overpowered (I only put him on snow maps, which just happened to mostly be hills). I think if I redid the unit trades for that map pack and put the frost warlock on flat maps, he would be underpowered, not overpowered.

[Zak]

Some more units I want to add to this map pack:

Journeyman initiate: a journeyman with 0 heals, that costs 3 points. I would have as many as 27 of them available. This would result in many journeyman rushes/melee battles. Can anyone think of why this would be a bad idea?

Great Divide Assassin Statues: I am trying to make more of them, not just alric/warrior/heron/berserk/archer. Ideally I would like about a dozen statues that I could put on maps. Then I would change EVERY map to have these statues on them, probably 2-4 per map, placed in strategic locations. Would anyone be upset at assassin being played this way?

[Zak]

I agree w. van- thanks zak. You're one of the only people actively making maps and trying diff stuff - so definite props.

I like to try doing different stuff (targeting the demographic of competitive mythers), and while it does take a certain amount of knowledge of mapmaking and competitive myth, I must point out that I've only MADE 2 maps.

Remnants of Harrenhall, which most of us remember...

AND THIS http://hl.udogs.net/files/Uploads/%20Us ... mythv1.zip

[punkUser]

However, almost every map the frost warlock is on, in my ffa map pack, has numerous hills. Since the parabola attack increases distance on hills, like a dwarf, the frost warlock becomes the most dominant unit.

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation. I wasn't aware that you had them in your FFA pack.

[Dantski]

Lets talk about resistances of the troll. The trow is extremely resistant to lightning and explosives. For this unit to be useful as a giant, it should probably have a similar, albeit weaker resistance. I think to address the difficulty tracking it, we should allow it to be pussed. Maybe healing it should do nothing. Does that make it seem more balanced?

Given the nature of the unit (half trow half FG) it should be less resistant than trow while being more resistant than average. If pus is going to be capable of freezing it should be a short duration IMO.

I think it depends on the map. I intended to put them on swampy maps where deep water forces units to take long detours to cross the map. Having a unit (even a ranged one) that could go right through them could offer a lot of strategic value, even if most units could kick its ass. Then if the enemy tries to rush it, they could slither back into the water. Not to mention that they could go into the river at one area, then have a dozen pop up out of the water somewhere else, pinching an enemy. Then when the enemy engages them, they go back into the water again. I think you're underestimating their value.

Has to be tested TBH, if it can just endlessly harass and retreat its too strong. If its damage is too weak or it can be run down easily then its a worthless option. I don't know why but a ranged unit that can be sunk underwater and endlessly annoy you just doesn't sit well with me.

So a unit that is stoned turns grey, and the effect is permanent until healed. If these units are hit while stoned, more damage is dealt than normal.

Is that it? I thought the affected unit(s) were slowed or their attack speed was reduced. The effect sounds fine I guess. Would all units be affected by this ability or would some be immune to its effects?

They were used on mockingbird, and then on my shitty "zak on the borderlands" plugin, in MWC.

I don't remember playing either of those! I recall mockingbird was used in an earlier TWS but not in MWC.

No you're completely right about units being too strong on some maps, and inherently weak on others. Thats why I think if I use these new units with the correct unit sets, they'll merely complement the map instead of making them the focus of it.

This is why I think you should avoid throwing more than 1-2 new units on a map. Hopefully that was your plan anyway. For unitsets not designed with competitive play in mind you can do whatever.

On the map you're talking about in ER1, I think thells would have been a mistake. Stygians and myrmighasts were so much more useful due to the campiness of the map and dominance of fetch/souls. If it had been a rushy map where pus was a factor, getting them would have been smart.

Possibly, I think I went with Thells since they were faster and better 1v1 than stygs. Well thats irrelevant to the discussion anyways...

So if I properly test these new units, balance them, and place them with a unit set where they aren't too weak/too strong, could you see them being "reggish"?

Probably, the main problem is always going to be "WTF are these units, never seen them before" every time the map is played because the plugin is only ever used in tournaments and very rare rabble games. Simply the fact that they will see extremely limited playtime makes them "unreggish" and even worse "gay".

[Vantobia]

Some more units I want to add to this map pack:

Journeyman initiate: a journeyman with 0 heals, that costs 3 points. I would have as many as 27 of them available. This would result in many journeyman rushes/melee battles. Can anyone think of why this would be a bad idea?

Great Divide Assassin Statues: I am trying to make more of them, not just alric/warrior/heron/berserk/archer. Ideally I would like about a dozen statues that I could put on maps. Then I would change EVERY map to have these statues on them, probably 2-4 per map, placed in strategic locations. Would anyone be upset at assassin being played this way?

I like the Jman idea. Drunken would pwn on that game

As for the assassin statue idea - yes and no. I think a few more static assassin maps would be good - but not to do away with the mobile type forever. The static ones tend to play pretty campy and slow, where as with the mobile ones we see some creative strats and funny outcomes. Variety is the key. Goooo ZAk

[Zak]

Given the nature of the unit (half trow half FG) it should be less resistant than trow while being more resistant than average. If pus is going to be capable of freezing it should be a short duration IMO

.

That sounds good. I already have the troll at those settings now, but your post confirms that was the right decision.

Has to be tested TBH, if it can just endlessly harass and retreat its too strong. If its damage is too weak or it can be run down easily then its a worthless option. I don't know why but a ranged unit that can be sunk underwater and endlessly annoy you just doesn't sit well with me.

You have a point, however soulless do pretty much the same thing. The main difference would be that the soulless can attack from deep water, but is easier to target with artillery. I think its a fair tradeoff.

Is that it? I thought the affected unit(s) were slowed or their attack speed was reduced. The effect sounds fine I guess. Would all units be affected by this ability or would some be immune to its effects?

Sorry I am really bad at describing things. When I mean it turns grey, the unit would be frozen in place, like a trow is when its badly hurt. Hopefully thats what you thought I meant. If the ability was overpowered I would go with the pus gas instead.

The giant would be immune. I am contemplating whether or not healers should be immune to the effect. All other units are vulnerable to it right now.

This is why I think you should avoid throwing more than 1-2 new units on a map. Hopefully that was your plan anyway. For unitsets not designed with competitive play in mind you can do whatever.

Yeah I wouldn't do more than 2 new units per map. The sinkable ranged units and the sinkable giants would work well together. Also the fetch-ish healer would work well with the giant that can stone units.

Probably, the main problem is always going to be "WTF are these units, never seen them before" every time the map is played because the plugin is only ever used in tournaments and very rare rabble games. Simply the fact that they will see extremely limited playtime makes them "unreggish" and even worse "gay".

You're right, but I over time we'll hear less and less of those comments, provided the units are properly balanced and fun to use.

I think a lot of newbs are thrown off by thell warriors and lichen generals when they play those for the first time. I could be wrong though.

[Zak]

As for the assassin statue idea - yes and no. I think a few more static assassin maps would be good - but not to do away with the mobile type forever. The static ones tend to play pretty campy and slow, where as with the mobile ones we see some creative strats and funny outcomes. Variety is the key. Goooo ZAk

I think the only real static ones that I can think of being used in MWC are Great Divide (a campy map regardless of the game type), and Fractured Earth (an awful map that doesn't see a lot of play). I remember the latter being kind of rushy.

Anyways I also think that the placement of the statues has a large impact on campiness. If there were a statue for each team near mid, or statues on flanks, I think it would result in far more aggressive strategies.

[Zak]

I think if I listed unit stats and abilities in their flavor, that people could adapt to the new units faster as well.

e.g.

Troll Giant
Trow health, 30% resistance to explosives and lightning, as well as 50% faster pus recovery time. Heron Guard walking speed, attack rate and damage of a trow. Can sink underwater or roll into a ball using the taunt key.

Bre'Unor Shaman
Warlock health, 80% resistance to fire, 80% faster recovery time from pus, and walks at archer speed. Primary ranged attack is a fetch range lightning bolt dealing fetch damage that sets the ground on fire, primary melee attack deals journeyman damage, and secondary ability is journeyman healing.

[Aki]

Take a warlock, decrease its range to around fetch range, increase the speed (by a lot) of its fireballs; would probably need to decrease UT cost too. Would be interesting to see how balanced it is.

[Zak]

2 more units I want to implement:

Fast Ghasts, which are basically the same as regular ghasts, but walk at heron guard speed. Limp and I used them on vertigo (FG) for TWS, and they helped balance out the map considerably.

Myrkridian Giants without a special ability, that go berserk at a low HP. They suck considerably and cost 22 points. Teams coule probably not trade for them and still win. They do have their uses however, especially if there are heals on the map.

[Zak]

I'm going to remove the sinkable archer unit from the plugin.

I had an idea about a soulless variant (looks like a soulless, but has a different shape skull). It would be like a normal soulless, but it would have a flame javelin, like archers have a flame arrow. It would be a single use, but could pick up more from other dead soulless.

[c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊]

Frost Warlock not over powered? Have you played with them at all?

They really aren't overpowered at all... their shot takes max mana, you can blow up the spike with explosives, non-freezable units like trow and stygs can walk right through the spike, they don't have much health... I really never take one even if 2-3 are offered, they're pretty much just anti-rush backup.

Wasps are cooler than waterspiders. There's nothing "unmythy" about them they are from a bungie sanctioned expansion.

Fast ghasts? Don't see why you wouldn't just use minions. As you can probably tell, I'm not a fan of just using bungie models for new units, comes off as hax0r.

I don't think trolls should be pussable but they shouldn't be healable.

As for the Thell special attack, it can kind of work if you spam it... I think ooga made some warrior "color guards" who have something similar but that works better, where they hold their shield up until you take it down, making them invulnerable to oncoming arrows but making them slower while doing so.

Gor Ash!!!

[Zak]

\
Fast ghasts? Don't see why you wouldn't just use minions. As you can probably tell, I'm not a fan of just using bungie models for new units, comes off as hax0r.

I don't think trolls should be pussable but they shouldn't be healable.

If I put minions in a plugin, they'll be able to float over deep water and travel over steep terrain. That would make them significantly better than ghasts.

I'll probably make the troll have a very short freeze time.

[Zak]

Gor Ash!!!

I don't think myth is ready for a super bre'unor yet.

However there will be 1 mesh with a modified gorash, using this unit trade:

1 trow, 2 gorash', 24 bre'unor, 3 shamans, 12 wolf heroes, 6 warlocks, 30 wasps, 2 wights, 30 myrmidons, and 18 heron guards.

Trow, gorash, and wights will be un-trade-able.

[wwo]

Trolls need to regenerate, otherwise they're not proper trolls.

[enculator]

and if i remember my baldur's gate properly, you have to kill em with fire !

[Zak]

I've made a series of tagsets for the new units I want to implement in this map pack. This should help test and tweak the units, instead of just making a dozen new versions of the map pack to change units in it. Each tagset replaces one unit type with one new unit. You can combine multiple tagsets, like shamans replacing warlocks, trolls replacing trow, and warlock elders replacing morts.

Important information is in the flavor of the new units, particularly stats and special ability info.

http://hl.udogs.net/files/Uploads/%20Us ... tingv1.zip


Let me know if anyone tries these out, or wants to test them with me. I'm pretty close to finishing the 2 team map pack, I just need to make sure these units are balanced, and that there isn't too many or too few points on each map.

[punkUser]

Random request for this: could you sort the meshes alphabetically? Currently there's no way to search meshes and while at some point that would be desirable, in the mean time it would be great to at least have it sorted so stuff is easier to find when there are plugins with so many maps.

[Renwood]

Nice approach zak! This you are speaking of is combining maps we all know and love, and putting them in 1 plugin unchanged with at LEAST the normal version of them (dont mind new versions as long as the originals remain as well) then you are putting all the other changes to units in the TAGSETS that you will release that go along WITH THEM? If that is the case zak...GOOD ON YA!