GKG TV

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 20 Mar 2013, 16:06

I am starting a new myth project where I will record video of my screen while I play myth. This will give you a good idea of how I play. One key thing that I do different from a lot of people as far as I know, is that I only use 2 presets (for the most part, I am capable of doing up to 4 when needed on rare occasion). So you will see how i control my units with box select to adapt during fights a lot more than presets, unlike most people. You can also of course see my micro, prioritization of micro, camera control, multitasking, clicking ability, etc. Personally I think this game is a lot more about how fast you can think than how fast you can mindlessly click, (click smarter not harder), so from this perspective you get a much better idea of how a player thinks by looking at where they are looking at with their camera and their cursor, their awareness, and the decisions they make with prioritizing their time.

I have tried doing this in the past a few times, like with streaming, or fraps, etc. However now I have some really top notch video capturing software (Bandicam) that makes lag much less of an issue. I think I can probably do this with tournament matches as well.

For now I am going to just do some 1v1s, hopefully against some good players.

I may have to tweak some things with my video settings, and I would be interested in anyone's input over the course of the project. What would you like to see, how's the video quality, etc. I am not sure if people are also interested in me posting the associated myth film of the games I will be recording on the video, let me know.

I will post youtube links here as soon as they are done uploading.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 20 Mar 2013, 16:12

Did my first quick recordings in 1v1s with Cruniac. He was running off no sleep so he played quite terribly, not the most exciting match, but here is the first sample. I will try to get some better matches in later. I recommend watching these on the highest video quality setting on youtube, otherwise it looks like shit. Audio quality didn't come out the greatest either...will see if I can improve the quality of that.

GKG vs Cruniac Gyre: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfSloxjCz24
GKG vs Cruniac Gimble: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWs-Dz37 ... e=youtu.be
GKG vs Cruniac Demise: http://youtu.be/vEmzFTW7dsc
GKG vs Cruniac Badlands: http://youtu.be/8lFV435mgvg

Let me know what you think.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » 20 Mar 2013, 16:45

Live stream tournament matches pls

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 20 Mar 2013, 17:00

I don't think live streaming is going to work for me. I tried experimenting with that before and it eats up too much bandwidth and lags me. I can do the recording though and upload it to youtube immediately after the match is done, which should be fine. It would only be like an hour or so delay, it would probably be up before the films are even uploaded.

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 20 Mar 2013, 17:46

More than a few subtleties I noticed just from these videos, pretty cool.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 20 Mar 2013, 17:52

well what did you notice? you should share so others can learn. if you got something out of it, maybe others will be encouraged to watch them and get something out of it as well.

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 20 Mar 2013, 18:01

On gimble you tagged his puss with a melee or two early and often, I usually wait until the opponent is actively pushing before I start trying to counter pus, your way saves clicks. On gyre it was was more a reinforcement of stuff I'm already starting to pick up i.e. tag the fetch with a maul or two and keep the pressure on them, whoever retreats their main group first tends to lose. Do you always get that trade on 1v1 gyre? I usually max mauls since zerks blow up so ez but maybe thats just an ffa habit.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 20 Mar 2013, 18:32

that is my usual trade. you could get more mauls, not a big difference tbh. the other nice thing about mauls is that they can't be stunned by any melee on that map except other mauls. it is handy for hitting a fetch even when they are swarmed by a pack of melee.

and yea, setting up combinations of tagging to attack things early while you move onto other micro is very important. that is how you get more things done, by spreading out the things you will be too busy to do during the fight, and set them up before the fight, then just keep your eye on them.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 20 Mar 2013, 19:29

I'm a fan of only 2 presets myself. I feel that like when people use a large # of presets they focus so much on their units and lose site of the game as a whole which leads to tunnel vision.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 20 Mar 2013, 19:40

yes asmo, that's true. Also you need a level of flexibility that transcends any presets. You can't confine yourself or be too focused on using a pre-determined preset. box-select exactly the units that you want instead of fumbling around with a preset.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 20 Mar 2013, 19:42

I never use less than 4 presets in 1v1... often 6 or 7. Seems to work for me!

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 20 Mar 2013, 19:52

Yeah I think either can work, with the least optimal point being where people have a small-ish number of presets (2-3 say) and stick to them inflexibly. I think the key point you're making GKG is that things tend to go to hell quickly and that one melee guy that you sent off to poke their arty has now sort of removed the utility of any preset that he was in.

I really don't like band selecting myself, but I do still do it sometimes (particularly for melee blobs). I tend to use double-click and enter more.

Cool videos in any case. Definitely your use of band selecting and basically not being afraid of giving a "bad"/irrelevant order to some unit because you can correct it afterwards with a tighter selection is what is the most different from me. Your execution is obviously a lot better too

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 20 Mar 2013, 20:03

yes punk, well said. Yes, you will often see me sending 1-2 melee units all over the place, and once that happens, I can no longer use my melee preset to move the bulk of the rest of my melee, or else I will interrupt all of those commands that I send out previously to straggler melee. That is when box-selecting takes over almost entirely. While that may seem like a problem, the benefit is that I can often overwhelm and confuse opponents, which as I was explaining previously, are too confined to their pre-determined presets. They are then taken out of their comfort zone, and then they can't keep up.

And yes, you can't be afraid to lose some units, or hesitate while doing so. often you will see that you have to sacrifice something in order to achieve something else. Or sometimes I will see where the enemy is microing, and he may be killing some stuff of mine, but I see an even bigger opportunity elsewhere. So instead of microing to defend against whatever he is doing, I am taking advantage of the fact that he is distracting somewhere else in the battle, and hopefully I am doing more damage than he is. This is where the really interesting thought-processes and decision-making takes place. who prioritized more efficiently or had a better idea. or who had a battle formation that required less micro to use. sometimes you can even set it up where the AI just does most of the work for you, so you are free to do something else.

Stick · Post by **Stick** » 20 Mar 2013, 20:18

Thanks for putting these up gkg, it is an eye opener to see the better players work.

I don't put nearly as much effort or focus in when I play. Would take a lot of practice to be able to select and click at that pace. I'll try a few times and see if I can improve.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 20 Mar 2013, 20:27

Good point about tasking lone mellee messing up a preset... i often send one or two out as well... and quickly deselect then and redo my preset. it may seem inconvenient but i can do it damn quickly and as often as needed.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 20 Mar 2013, 20:52

adrenaline wrote:Good point about tasking lone mellee messing up a preset... i often send one or two out as well... and quickly deselect then and redo my preset. it may seem inconvenient but i can do it damn quickly and as often as needed.

Yeah I've gone back and forth on whether I try to remove them (can do it with shift-click pretty easily) or just stop using that preset, but I haven't found a compromise that I'm fully comfortable with. If I switch to band select I'm less precise with orders and if I remove units from presets I sometimes forget about the units that I sent off...

Adren and GKG probably represent the two good end-points of how to micro, and I'm somewhere in the hell that is the middle

I should just choose one way and practice it a lot heh.

SamTheButcher · Post by **SamTheButcher** » 20 Mar 2013, 21:09

Very cool man thanks for putting them up. I'm still digesting it but a few things I notice was of course how much you use the box select and also how fast you click and often. I use Box selection quite a bit but not as much as you for like single or just a couple units but that is a great way and you dont have to be so accurate trying to select a single unit. How do you handle when you are a team captain with the box select since it also selects teammates units? I just asked yesterday over at Magma if anything could be done about that. So even as captain you have the option of only box selecting your own units.

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 20 Mar 2013, 21:11

adrenaline wrote:Good point about tasking lone mellee messing up a preset... i often send one or two out as well... and quickly deselect then and redo my preset. it may seem inconvenient but i can do it damn quickly and as often as needed.

I do this as well, since I like to keep the melee I leave guarding my units in a preset so I can select them instantly and I don't want the units I send out to be screwed up by still being in a preset.

I like this GKG TV idea, it should be a good learning tool for people.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 20 Mar 2013, 23:03

GiantKillerGen wrote:I don't think live streaming is going to work for me. I tried experimenting with that before and it eats up too much bandwidth and lags me. I can do the recording though and upload it to youtube immediately after the match is done, which should be fine. It would only be like an hour or so delay, it would probably be up before the films are even uploaded.

Your motherboard or router may have come with software that lets you tailor bandwidth usage. Capping the streaming app would allow myth to run as normal.

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 21 Mar 2013, 02:50

Omfg just watched the badlands video and noticed that you use edge-scrolling instead of panning with keyboard, weird!

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 03:45

way too much effort to deal with that wwo. I don't see any big problem with an hour or so delay between when the match is played and when the video is viewable on youtube. Myth isn't so popular to necessitate such an immediate live viewing. Also, there is the very real problem if the opposing team viewing my stream which would give away all of my strats, obviously I would never do that.

I thought edge-scrolling was pretty standard. I only use q and e to orbit the camera. I think most people use it in this way, I am sure there are exceptions.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 12:54

Yep... edge scrolling ftw. helps to have a really fast camera.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 21 Mar 2013, 16:27

Interesting GKG, I hope you can Iron out the sound issues to later videos. I like the band selcting of just 1 unit, faster and more forgiving then trying to click exactly on it. I wish I had FRAPS videos of how I used to play TFL. I was hyper active and all over the place controlling all my units at the same time. Very different from how I play now, where i kinda focus on 1 group of my units at a time.

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 21 Mar 2013, 16:56

Weird that you guys use edge scroll instead of wasd, what are you doing with your left hand?

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 21 Mar 2013, 17:31

typing or taunting probably

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 21 Mar 2013, 17:46

Orbiting view and presets. I pretty much only use QWE and edge scrolling to navigate the map.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 17:56

presets, taunt, control click, formations, orbiting camera, etc. with left hand

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 21 Mar 2013, 18:38

I'm curious as to the logic behind using mouse time to move the camera instead of the wasd keys, which to me seem much faster and more efficient.

dac · Post by **dac** » 21 Mar 2013, 18:52

I used to do it, when I did i figured that i was moving the screen towards something and my mouse would be closer to clicking on that thing when i hit it if i used that, but i def prefer wasd now, so maybe i should go back and be better lol

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 21 Mar 2013, 19:08

you might think it is more efficient, but what I have found with any gaming control bindings, is that intuitiveness is a strong factor as well. If the controls are intuitive, you are going to be able to execute quicker without even thinking about it, even if that hand is doing a lot already.

In this example, using the keyboard might seem more efficient because your mouse is already doing a lot of work. However, using the mouse for camera scrolling is more intuitive I think. Also this is a relatively quick task as well, I don't have to aim my cursor, I just flick it in the direction I want it to be in a fraction of a second.

Using your keyboard for camera scrolling has some drawbacks as well, your fingers may be more tied up which could slow down your selection of presets, ctrl click, taunts, and anything else. So maybe your left hand isn't as busy as your right hand, but that is okay, it could still overall be more intuitive and quicker to control everything.

Really I don't think it matters all that much, do whatever is most intuitive for you. And I also actually have not tried using wasd for camera scrolling, maybe I should so I can have a more definitive opinion.

Another thing that I thought of, is that by using your mouse to scroll, your camera is always going to be still when you try to select units, which helps with accuracy. If you are using your keyboard, you could be moving your camera with your left hand and trying to select with your right hand at the same time, which could throw off your clicks a bit. Even if you are not trying to do it, if you need to do things really fast you could be fumbling with your controls.

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 21 Mar 2013, 20:47

I don't think that after 15 years of using the keyboard to scroll camera I could begin to use the mouse for this. I am trying to shift more towards band select though, my play has always been hybrid band-select and presets, but I am starting to realize that the units I am better with happen to be those I band select with, namely archers when I'm dueling.

dac · Post by **dac** » 21 Mar 2013, 21:10

I stopped band selecting when i started capping lots of games all those years ago, selecting already distributed units sucks and double clicking holding shift just isnt efficient. the enter key misses stuff, it's so hard to do that. it would be nice if you had to hold another button down to control units that arent yours (as cap i mean, like, hold option when clicking to take control of the units or hold option while band selecting)

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 21 Mar 2013, 22:54

I don't think anyone good uses only 2 presets btw - anyways presets aren't static you usually have to edit them in battle - mainly if you want to send some rush melle out of your melle preset. Also if something dies like one lock on a pg you'd want to move your presets up by 1.

One technique I use when you are trying to push with an arc melle duff combo vs the same thing say on gimble - is have all the units selected and just attack the enemy arcs. Your duffs and melle won't attack because there's too much of a distance between the enemy but your arcs will shoot. This way you just keep dodging with all your units instead of one group at time. Il try get a film of this up.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 21 Mar 2013, 23:28

dac wrote:I stopped band selecting when i started capping lots of games all those years ago

This, except from '97 in three different incarnations. Even when I don't captain I've got a brain lock against band-select.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 22 Mar 2013, 03:39

I use only 2 presets, as previously stated. So you can be good and only use 2 presets.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 26 Mar 2013, 18:40

Uploaded some videos of 1v1s with Paris, he was kind enough to to be cool with me recording them despite him being very rusty. You can see these and any future video updates at my youtube channel here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/meanmarinem ... ature=mhee

I want to do some melee duels to show that as well. Let me know if there is anything else anyone wants to see.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 26 Mar 2013, 23:12

GiantKillerGen wrote: I want to do some melee duels to show that as well. Let me know if there is anything else anyone wants to see.

Explain them as well. There's been some embarassingly easy fights won because people think it's just luck after the box+gesture. Show things like when to micro a 2-on-1 to finish off a unit in the melee. Also, do you "pre-scout" a melee to keep track of enemy veteran units? On gyre for example, a disproportionate number of fights after an initial battle are turned more on how to deal with veterans and injured units than the fresh-and-green fights.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 27 Mar 2013, 04:26

Ok, well with that being said, I am now looking for a quality partner-in-crime that will essentially be my side-kick / assistant / fellow broadcaster. Your job will basically just be to hang out in a ventrilo channel or what not with me, watch me play, and just chit chat while I explain some things that I am doing. You facilitate conversation by just being someone I can talk to, because I really don't like talking to myself for these sorts of things. Mything skills are not required.

If there is anyone interested in this then I can try to make it happen.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 27 Mar 2013, 05:10

I may be able to do that. I've been a little preoccupied lately (I do eventually want to cover some of TWS). Just send me a pm. I know it's hard to cover what you're doing while you're in-game.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 27 Mar 2013, 08:43

Alternatively, and this might be better for what you're trying to do, you can record the game as you play it, like you're already doing. But instead of trying to talk while playing you could record a second track of your thoughts while watching it, and dub it on top. Might be worth looking into.

ScaryMonster · Post by **ScaryMonster** » 29 Mar 2013, 20:54

This is my ideal resource for taking my Myth to a much higher level. I have 2 suggestions.
1. Pair the video w/ a myth-film-file.
2. Compress the hell out of the video files, zip-bundle them w/ a myth-film-file and post them on theTain.

Youtube is great for many reasons, but I want to view this in a less twitchy video player. To properly absorb the amount of information in just a few short seconds requires a lot of rewind/pause and precise jogging, for which youtube's support is very weak.

Even better, would be the view from both sides, which is to say, the other player does the capturing as well.

I am studying Myth (and these films) as though they were Martial Arts (which is not a big stretch) and I am trying to isolate kata-like sequences that can be practiced. These films have given me an abundance of material to work w/. And I am also seeing the prioritization of the attacks, for me, this is the part that will most benefit from having a local file version to study. At this high level of play, Myth takes on an aspect of real-time chess, by which I am fascinated.

I would also be very interested in seeing captures from 2-team games from the captain's chair.

I would also like to see you play from sub-optimal trades, or deal w/ being doubled - things which require improvisation.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 29 Mar 2013, 20:57

who are you

ScaryMonster · Post by **ScaryMonster** » 29 Mar 2013, 22:54

I am just a guy returning to the Myth world from a long absence. I have been practicing for several months and these videos were something that I had been hoping someone would do for some time now. I guess since we haven't met my jumping in here is a bit of an intrusion. Perhaps I let my enthusiasm get the better of me, no offense.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 29 Mar 2013, 23:04

ScaryMonster wrote:I am just a guy returning to the Myth world from a long absence. I have been practicing for several months and these videos were something that I had been hoping someone would do for some time now. I guess since we haven't met my jumping in here is a bit of an intrusion. Perhaps I let my enthusiasm get the better of me, no offense.

Get the fuck outta here

Who invited this guy onto our forums??

Cutard · Post by **Cutard** » 29 Mar 2013, 23:18

This is my cousin, ray ray. He's a bit challenged and likes to type with the butt end of his nunchucks, looks like hes gotten a lot better at that. Ladies, don't have babies after 40 or freeze your eggs.

ScaryMonster · Post by **ScaryMonster** » 30 Mar 2013, 00:48

Yea, I expected something like this.

Got anymore?

SeekerAntiVegan · Post by **SeekerAntiVegan** » 30 Mar 2013, 12:57

The community is worried that you are merely Zaknafein playing a prank on us.

I doubt it since your technical knowledge outstrips Zak's technical knowledge. I think you are legit. However, it's unfair to ask GKG to go through a lot of work to appease the whims of one person. If you could get more support from other posters/players then it would be worth it.

SamTheButcher · Post by **SamTheButcher** » 30 Mar 2013, 14:31

GKG the speed and precision you have controlling your units is pretty outstanding. I can see now I am way too slow with unit control. Its good to see just how fast someone can be. So I have an idea of what I need to try to do.

Paris- I'm not that great (I have a good idea about what should be done in Myth. My biggest flaw is execution) but one thing I noticed that seemed to me to be a mistake you made with the Light units is. You were pushing GKG and he was steady retreating but he was killing you by attrition. It is a battle tactic that has been used since wars have been fought. As he retreats with his units together you kept chasing with you units spreading out and he was able to take them out one by one. I would suggest and take it for what it is worth to you. That instead of continuing to chase like you were keep your units closer together and instead of chasing march in formation towards him. This isnt only directed toward you. This is something I see others and myself do that I think is usually a mistake. I'm just pointing out something I noticed which is something I think would be good for us to do to help us learn from these videos. They are a great resource and we should try to get the most out of them.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 30 Mar 2013, 16:59

Sam, I am sure Paris knows why he lost. He was very rusty, and these were just some casual 1v1s to unrust him. Not a whole lot of care going into that, we know it wasn't the highest quality of matches.

SamTheButcher · Post by **SamTheButcher** » 30 Mar 2013, 18:44

GKG and Paris. I'm not saying anything bad about him losing or saying he's not good or anything. Cause he is. I was just pointing out a mistake he had made as a learning experience for everyone really. It wasnt meant to be insulting.