So what is the deal with Deadhold?

A single berserk reached us yesterday, after having come all the way over the mountains from the city of Willow, fourteen hundred miles away. He delivered to Alric a single package the size of a man's fist, wrapped in rags, and refuses to talk with anyone about events in the West.
Giant Killer General
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Giant Killer General »

I would pretty much disagree completely.

According to the wikipedia page for the term "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena" (MOBA), "MOBA" means the exact same thing as "ARTS." It is a different name which means the exact same thing.

If you think there is a difference in meaning between the terms ARTS and MOBA, then that is kind of your own personal interpretation. The terms are widely used interchangeably.

Right at the top, front, and center of deadhold.com they also describe it as a "squad based ARTS", and the ARTS part means the exact same thing as MOBA. The only saving grace comparing it to myth is their addition of the description: "squad based".

Personally I prefer the term MOBA over ARTS, because "battle arena" is a much more meaningful description to me than "action". RTS is so generic that it hardly tells you anything at all, except that the game is not turn-based, not an fps, or an rpg. That still leaves a lot of room in the variations of games which still fit that description since every game has some element of strategy to it anyway. The nature of any game is the interactivity of presenting a player with decisions. And every decision has a strategy.

Also I didn't know what ARTS meant until I looked it up. I knew what a MOBA was though, and I knew what games fit that description. So MOBA is used sometimes because it is familiar.

However nobody should care about whether someone uses the term MOBA or ARTS. I have a preference but I certainly do not care one way or another how others use it. Which term is better is simply a matter of personal preference, and doesn't really matter at all. Some games don't fit into the traditional genre categories very well, and the details are what really matter a hell of a lot more. So focus more on the details rather than bullshitting about genre labels that nobody cares about. The details are what makes the game, no matter what label you put on it.

So far the details of what they are doing with Deadhold do not look promising at all. Others can disagree, to each their own. I know I certainly will not be playing it, and I suspect the same goes for a good chunk of the myth community as well. They clearly want to do their own thing with the game which is fine, but don't try and bullshit people into thinking it is the spiritual successor of myth. It is going to be a completely different game. And the developers have confirmed as much over and over again. If you still cling to the idea that it could be the next myth then you are only deluding yourself, and setting yourself up for a lot of future disappointment / butthurt.

P.S. Dawn of War 2 looks a hell of a lot like a MOBA to me.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by par73 »

Giant Killer General wrote:So focus more on the details rather than bullshitting about genre labels that nobody cares about.
I like this approach from here on out.
Giant Killer General wrote:don't try and bullshit people into thinking it is the spiritual successor of myth. It is going to be a completely different game. And the developers have confirmed as much over and over again. If you still cling to the idea that it could be the next myth then you are deluding yourself and are in for a lot of future butthurt.
limp wrote: Even more perplexing is the fact that the developers asked for the Myth community's opinion, only to ignore almost every single thing any one of us has said.

Ultimately, they can either choose to make a broken MOBA no one will play, or they can recreate a game style that hasn't been explored in almost 2 decades, potentially creating an entirely new market through it.
Gkg you missed a point I was making, and I understand how limp feels this is like a bastardization of something we play. but again this is not myth 3 and a half (which critics praised for it's single player but it's multiplayer was an absolutely horrific experience and said it fell short of the previous titles). I'm not trying to take the position or make the argument Deadhold is Myth or ever was, but there are some small flashes of similarity and that can't be denied.

It's obvious the gate of storms / myth community popular vote is to skip over deadhold, we have enough trouble finding time for what consider leisure regardless. myth 3 is also not popular here just like the rest of the world.
the big reason limp gave me a hard on to respond to his post is that i don't think he's giving it a second chance (although i do see he has wound up on the deadhold discord and said hello!)

regardless, it needs a lot of work, it's far from finished; but two years down the line they have put in the effort and made progress and not disappeared (have they lasted longer than mumbo jumbo's coverage of myth 3 at this point?)

i know many myth community members are much better with their feedback and organizing it in a sensible manner than I am, so I'm saying if you have
  • a) a computer that can run it
  • b) accepted its an alpha, you have the patience to play it and provide feedback on a work in progress and
  • c) accepted the fact it's not myth 2, it's not myth; its not reviving a skeleton, it is something brand new
then you should come and join the party.

i'm posting out of my own free will, not on their behalf to reach the myth community; the new engine looks much more promising than the last.





@dac i see we all have different ideas about MOBAs. a key difference in what deadhold is and what a MOBA is lies in definition (which was well defined by gkg above).
most of the MOBAs i play involve one unit, and very seldom many units unless due to circumstance; I suppose perspective wise this is why deadhold does not give me the MOBA feel.
there's no building of structures staying true to the MOBA name
but a key factor in defining real time strategy games is there is some sort of form of resources to be gathered, this remains true to exist in MOBAs (ARTS)

Where is it in deadhold? hence i just simply be can't be satisfied with the idea that deadhold is a MOBA, whether the devs or others call/see it that way or not.
Like you brought up there's one game series, we can all bring to mind that shares a non-gathering resource system.
Some called it's genre 'real time tactics', so is deadhold an action realtime tactics? a real time tactics battle arena?
ARTT, rather than ARTS (MOBA)? Multiplayer Online Tactical Battle Arena? MOTBA?
or Multiplayer Online Real-Time Tactics? sounds about right. A MORTT.
PunkUser likes ARTT, ARTT has a nice ring to it. Playing a game of myth is like art.

After looking over the definition of real-time tactics, i feel it's much more appropriate and accurate than MOBA/ARTS or RTS when describing the gameplay and experience of Deadhold.

Ultimately I'm wrong above in thinking Deadhold is an RTS hybrid, as MOBAs are. I'm skipping sub-genres and sub-classifications.
RTS and RTT stem from strategical wargames and tactical wargames, coming from the wargames family tree.

myth of course was simply a real-time tactics game, From 2000 to 2009, the number of Internet users globally rose from 394 million to 1.858 billion.
One could say the relationship between the rise and sustainability of the MOBAs is mutual with this social phenomenon.
One may see this as a stretch, but with this occurrence being consistently factual it confirms the position that myth is not even in the same genre as Deadhold. Myth is not a MORTT.
While myth had bungie.net and it is "Multiplayer Online", it was created with technology available before this era; it is hard to say Myth 2 was meant to be played online competitive with so few having access to [quality] internet (still was, no doubt).


Bungie was testing the multiplayer waters until the release of Halo 2 when they could truly launch something "Multiplayer Online", in the middle of the 00-09 era of widespread internet accessibility; MumboJumbo flopped the myth series less than a month after September 11th at the very early part of that decade. Will deadhold become a "Multiplayer Online" experience? a MORTT as described above? Fine "ARTT"? (Puns) Or will it fall into the abyss of alpha testing obscurity? Time will tell while the door is open for some to give their feedback and others to place their bets.

I thought the best idea brought to the table is that limp identified there could be something here, while time for the Deadhold Devs to make a splash before another development group gets their worked published is running out.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Asmodian »

Deadhold just isn't a good game regardless of what genre you consider it. People that have hopes of it being a good game have a false hope. The developers of the game clearly don't have much experience with competitive gaming and from what I recall they wanted it to be a potential e-sport game...

The only level of competition they are going to reach on that game is the equivalent of an Obelix FFA game.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by wwo »

Pretend I retype what Asmo just wrote, because I 100% agree. This The developers of the game clearly don't have much experience with competitive gaming in particular. You can't make up your own ruleset if you don't have an inherent (whether through knowledge, experience, or both) understanding of the rules available. I'll give the perfect example.

I first knew Georg Zoeller when he was active in the Neverwinter Nights community, way back in the early Aughts. Now, NWN was praised for its implementation of 3e D&D rules, for its excellent game editor, and for its multiplayer support. It was also roundly trashed for its shit single-player campaign on all fronts, from plot to character/decision impact. You combine the aspie aspects of 3e with the virtually unlimited capacity for anonymous fantasy role-playing, and you end up with the community of fans that Bioware eventually did: socially stunted narcissists who think character development is best done with a spreadsheet. This was the environment where Zoeller cut his game design teeth.

Somehow, he went from glorified forum monkey and vocal modder, to ending up on Bioware's payroll as their lead combat designer for Dragon Age: Origins. People familiar with him, and the direction Bioware was going to take after selling out to EA, knew that DA:O was doomed. The shit gameplay was obvious from the moment the character creation screen opened. There's literally thousands of lines of text describing its many failings, and I'm sure EA trying to appeal to a wider (read: dumber) audience had something to do with it, but the core of the problem was Zoeller's complete failure to understand systems design. He confirmed it with the failed SWKOTR mmo. It only speaks to the lowest-common-denominator mentality of his next/current employer (Ubisoft) that he continues to find work.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Aki »

This thread was the first I heard of Heroes of the Storm. That implies not even Blizzard could get into the MOBA business (despite dota's roots).
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by limp »

Personally, when I initially became aware of the existence of Deadhold, I was overjoyed. Damn near 20 years devoted to this stupid Myth franchise, and in all that time we still have not seen something even remotely resembling it. Suffice to say, I immediately pooled what resources and knowledge I had available to me, to hopefully aid in the birth of what I hoped would become my next great time devourer.

I went to great lengths, alerting every myther I could to this development, digging into AIM aliases and ancient emails to see who I could rouse from the woodwork. I even went so far as to dig up the Myth:TFL and Myth 2 manuals and started searching for people from the dev team on Facebook, and you know what, it worked. I struck what I felt would be some sort of gold for the development of Deadhold.

This gold was a connection with the lead project developer for Myth 2, Tuncer Deniz. He was excited about it! He couldn't believe all of us freaks were still keeping this game alive, and seemed genuinely interested in doing what he could to help with the progress and development of Deadhold, a game which obviously represented a spiritual successor to Myth in all of the pictures and videos available. I mean just look at the game, regardless of what specific genre you want to apply to it, it looks god damn exactly like Myth.

I did my best to communicate with Fisj, giving my two cents in regards to what players would be most valuable concerning the balancing and gameplay design moving forward. I tried to pair him up with Tuncer, but he seemed totally uninterested. I tried to create a pool of indispensable mythers who would be immensely valuable, which seemed to be utterly ignored. They had their "vision", despite not even really understanding what game they were making, even though we can all see it's just Myth with 3D models and magic spells. They seemingly turned all of this attention down, from myself and others, because they already "knew what they were doing."

From where we stand currently, that couldn't seem any further from the truth. None of the people on their development team have ever been even remotely involved in the competitive Myth scene whatsoever, and from the look of the game this contingent of people would most obviously be square one to begin recruiting help from. It's been over a year since I tried my damndest to help them build a large team of knowledgable people, and they seem to be moving backwards at this point. Switching the entire engine the game runs on, deep into it's development, because they can't figure out how to write their own pathfinding code, does not scream aptitude. Such a massive departure more so represents inability, and disorganization. Chances are, there are dozens of mythers who would have helped them do this and tons of other things for free, if they weren't so busy being stubborn and exclusive.

But they are being stubborn and exclusive, and this broken version of Myth that they don't want to be Myth, despite looking almost exactly like Myth, doesn't seem to be trending in the right direction.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by sharkdrivingabus »

This is a really interesting thread. Myth is the only multiplayer game I've ever participated in to any extent (outside of multiplayer console games in my dorm room), so it's fascinating to read about the different genres and the criticisms of each. I have nothing tangible to add, but just wanted to comment that it's nice to see a serious, interesting, non-flamey thread from you guys.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by wwo »

Re-reading the last bits, there's trends to be noted for those who are trying to make a business out of an idea. If you ignore reality, you're delusional (renwood kickstarter). If you ignore your customers, you're arrogant (comcast). If you ignore neither, you're ambitious if the idea isn't obviously great, or successful if it is. Deadhold seems to be wavering between delusional and arrogant. Make no mistake about it: Myth is a niche game in a niche genre. They can either try to make a great game, or they can try to make a popular game, but if they try to do both, failure is virtually guaranteed. Creators and artists and designers have to have their own ideas lead the way, because it's the only path that is knowable. Asking "what do you want" at each decision point is textbook lack of vision. If this were a company, I would decline to invest in it.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Myrk »

I haven't really ever been tempted to even try the Deadhold beta because it's pretty much the same shit every time someone tries to remake Myth. Myth 3, Renwood's thing, and whatever, they pretty much are made by uncompetitive idiots who don't understand the factors that made Myth a great game and they won't listen to the people in the community who actually have a clue. If there was a team of people willing to make a Myth-like game with competent programmers, graphic designers etc with people who were actually good at Myth working on balancing maps/units and making sure there could be a good variety of viable strategies, I'm sure it would actually do fairly well in at least a niche market but clearly this is never going to happen.
Highly unfortunate. RIP Myth.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by foxlinked »

dac wrote:
switch wrote:Which engine did they change to?
they switched from unreal to unity, or vice versa. i dont know which. i lost interest in their progress pretty quickly when i saw the moba type spells, seems like itll likely have a good campaign but i got serious doubts about the pvp
it's more fun than your mom.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by DBSeeker »

Myrk wrote:I haven't really ever been tempted to even try the Deadhold beta because it's pretty much the same shit every time someone tries to remake Myth. Myth 3, Renwood's thing, and whatever, they pretty much are made by uncompetitive idiots who don't understand the factors that made Myth a great game and they won't listen to the people in the community who actually have a clue. If there was a team of people willing to make a Myth-like game with competent programmers, graphic designers etc with people who were actually good at Myth working on balancing maps/units and making sure there could be a good variety of viable strategies, I'm sure it would actually do fairly well in at least a niche market but clearly this is never going to happen.
Highly unfortunate. RIP Myth.
You're asking for a lot out of a budget title for a niche market.

Deadhold is fine, graphically.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Asmodian »

Not once did Myrk mention graphics. He mentioned stuff that a low budget project could do if they had the right vision and understanding of a myth-like game.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Renwood »

It is strange that people with zero development experience what-so-ever think that being a "competitive player" translates into knowing what makes a great game. This is certainly NOT The case. Case in point, the Bungie crew USED to get on Bungie net and play often when TFL and Myth 2 first came out. NONE of them were ANY GOOD at playing. So by your shared logic they could never have made a great game like myth. Being good at PLAYING a game and being good an CREATING a game are two completely different skill sets.

limp makes a lot of good points about trying really hard to help, but finding no interest is shown in his efforts. I commend limp for his actions in this regard.

To me after speaking with certain Deadhold devs, it became very clear they wanted nothing to do with Myth at all. So why they want to mention myth often as an inspiration for Deadhold is beyond me.
Maybe they are remembering the FUN of the November 97-1999 era when it was all golden and filled with puppies and bunnies and everything was all warm and fuzzy and FUN. Also the internet was a LOT more fun to game on back in those eras, now it is just a total shit show.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by wwo »

No one said you needed to be a competitive player, but you do need to understand game mechanics, which competitive players do. This is why simple units with one or no special abilities are best, because it keeps their role strictly defined, better enabling a larger strategic platform to be built. And lol@u if you think every Bungie dev only played under one alias. You have no idea if any of them were "ANY GOOD".

The rest of your post is invalidated by the flawed argument you started with.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by par73 »

lol @tb :)



Sure there are factors that made a myth a great game, but why cater and listen to people in the community who actually have a clue about said ideas unless you're trying to re-make myth?
Deadhold is not myth, the dev's are not trying to recreate myth; hence requiring/acquiring the players who 'have a clue' isn't exactly a priority. The perspective is welcome, but by no means is it an absolute necessity.

Amazing pheonomenon we have going on here, with the hard to please myth community: Anyone who's looking to give deadhold information about what they thought made myth 2 great are in abundance, but only those under the assumption the deadhold devs would be trying to recreate or revitalize myth, and preferably in their vision.
I'm willing to believe everyone here could have something to bring to the table, but feeding meat to vegans is more of a forceful effort than one of compliance; I don't find it surprising a lot of outside input is shut down (or seems to be), most of the outside input is also about stages of the game deadhold is not close to being in yet therefore it's inappropriate to even consider it to be of use in the moment.
In another example: Someone could have the end-all be-all best ideas about unit tactics/abilities or entertaining gameplay, which would prove more fruitful than any other's opinion/input about the topic; but that info doesn't mean dick unless the devs were actually working on that part of the game.

I think it’s sad that most people are consumers of technology and not creators. The world’s a better place when people know how to create, not just consume. If someones intrinsically motivated on helping make deadhold become a great game, it is hard to believe they would be stopped; if someones intrinsically motivated on helping deadhold become a myth clone, it's not surprising they are shut down in their ideals.

If the Deadhold developers did more to reach out to experienced real-time tactics players, they would be spending an awful amount of time on repeating themselves. And who is to say those explanations would be fruitful?

I'm sure they would get really good at it after a while and keep it simple,
"The first rule of Deadhold is... it's not myth",
"The second rule of Deadhold is... you do not talk about myth 3."
"The third rule of Deadhold is... it looks like that game you played, but no, it is not myth."
Hopefully by the 3rd rule's explanation, the former m2 player realizes Deadhold is not what he expected it to be and leaves the discussion.

wwo wrote: He first shows the pathfinding of the squad (I'll use this term, and leave "unit" to describe the individual warriors) by going around an obstacle, and getting back into formation. Then he says "the units (squad) move in formation," but then demonstrates by only moving it a short distance in a straight line. Clearly, squads do not move in formation, something that has very distinct tactical uses different from simply reforming at the end of a move.

It's this kind of confusion and lack of understanding of super-basic concepts that eroded my expectations for this game.
Many of those videos are for people already informed about the project, where it has been, where it is now, and where it is going. I don't believe any of those videos posted were directed towards relative newcomers or those without dev direction, hence many outsiders view deadhold test videos and make uninformed rationalizations about what they are looking at.
This video might be explaining a 'super simple concept' to another developer who isn't as informed, it could be explaining a change in unit control after the engine upgrade or for a future/previous build; without context all you can do is give your best guess.

What you don't see here is a full demonstration, the caster's fingers pressing the buttons/using the commands; I'm not sure if it's supposed to be a full demonstration but rather a quick one.
I'm also not sure if they had more than one formation created at the time this video was made, but while your units are moving you can change their formation in the middle of movement and they will reform while marching to the area where you sent them. "The units move in formation."
Perhaps a better visual demonstration of this would have been for a longer march while the caster cycled through two or three formations with the units selected; the differences in path-finding and keeping in formation during movement after formation changes are much more obvious.
In myth 2 this is possible by selecting the units again (or if already selected then), pressing a formation key, right clicking to move.


@Dac - They were originally using the Unreal engine, they are now using the Unity engine (and holy shit imo such a huge difference). No way in hell was a game like deadhold going to work itself out on unreal, it limited the developers too much.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Giant Killer General »

Deadhold looks like complete shit, and their developers come across as unprofessional at best, and completely amateurish at worst.

I look forward to another pointless page-long reply in an attempted defense by paris projecting his butthurt that not everyone agrees with him in sharing his delusional love for deadhold and their devs, even though he himself as no fucking clue about any of this either.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by DBSeeker »

Asmodian wrote:Not once did Myrk mention graphics. He mentioned stuff that a low budget project could do if they had the right vision and understanding of a myth-like game.
"Competent graphic designers."

I didn't touch gameplay at all in my post. You can certainly have high expectations for gameplay. That's reasonable.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by par73 »

Giant Killer General wrote:Deadhold looks like complete shit, and their developers come across as unprofessional at best, and completely amateurish at worst.

I look forward to another pointless page-long reply in an attempted defense by paris projecting his butthurt that not everyone agrees with him in sharing his delusional love for deadhold and their devs, even though he himself as no fucking clue about any of this either.
Well then GKG if you want to hear more about my perspective then the best thing to do is goad to supply the demand!
I enjoy hearing your perspective as much as the next person in this community. Remember if you don't like mine, just skip over my posts. Looks like some have less of a facking clue this than me about this, who knew. Happy to explain it.

btw talked to a dev last night,

He said DH's not a MOBA, and confirmed calling DH a MOBA was nothing more than an early market strategy that ultimately failed.
why?
Adding to what limp was bringing up, it's not just that popular MOBAs are run by powerful experienced companies, but MOBA players like to pick their MOBA and not play much else. Unfortunately for their marketing scheme, the MOBA community happened to be more "my way or the high way" than any other community via gaming genre. some like their asiago bagels toasted, half cream cheese, half strawberry jelly, and some like them plain; anything besides their preference and it's thrown off the table like a hissyfit of a pampered child. LOL is played by more human beings than any other game ever played on the planet.

If someone thinks I'm posting to get people to agree with me, or that I'm 'attempting' to defend myself because people don't agree with me, you're wrong again. Sure, I didn't agree with you, 'gaming media' or the dev's posted claims it was a MOBA/ARTS, oh well. It didn't turn out to be a perspective thing after all, and that ultimately I was correct after gathering information about the subject. Oh well. That's what you get when you trust 2/3 sources that have as much of a clue or less as yourself as to what you're discussing and the other remaining source is playing political, selling ideas over truth as they should be.

I don't think anyone who plays a MOBA would claim Deadhold a MOBA after they played it nor do I think an RTS player would call Deadhold an RTS after they played it (no logistics/production); there are too many significant differences at the moment. I think deadhold could afford to go under the strategy genre, but definately not MOBA/ARTS The majority of myth players have flashbacks to Myth 3, black out at their desk and wake up feeling sore. Through valid reasoning of definitively omniscient Wikipedia articles, Deadhold's current genre is most definitely real-time tactics in a fantasy setting, although games can find under multiple genres at one time. Maybe action/battle arena fits in there somewhere, through perspective one can still call it whatever one chooses. My perspective? There's no attempt in achievement.


Gkg went from specifically defining a MOBA to broadly defining an RTS and becoming satisfied with what he thought at first glance, but this isn't surprising as he's already proposed his perspective that it's not worth his time looking into further. That's cool, I'm also here to discuss what Deadhold is from my perspective; Glad to see he's still here :)
If anyone reads my responses and once thought Deadhold was a MOBA, they might think otherwise or they might not; so be it and who cares. ARTT, lahl.

Good day
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by par73 »

I'd hate to get people's hopes up about a "recreation" of the Myth series (as Deadhold seems to have done at some point), but since 2010 Take-Two has been working on the turn based real-time tactics XCOM series essentially revitalizing it after it fell off in the early 2000s.
Perhaps T2 will put out an action real-time tactics next and flip some other old assets more to our liking, although they seem to enjoy turn based strategy more than any other in the genre.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Giant Killer General »

Deadhold looks like complete shit, and their developers come across as unprofessional at best, and completely amateurish at worst.

I look forward to another pointless page-long reply in an attempted defense by paris projecting his butthurt that not everyone agrees with him in sharing his delusional love for deadhold and their devs, even though he himself as no fucking clue about any of this either.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Revan »

Deadhold looks like complete shit, and their developers come across as unprofessional at best, and completely amateurish at worst.

I look forward to another pointless page-long reply in an attempted defense by paris projecting his butthurt that not everyone agrees with him in sharing his delusional love for deadhold and their devs, even though he himself as no fucking clue about any of this either.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by par73 »

haha noobs
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by punkUser »

Giant Killer General wrote:I would pretty much disagree completely.
That's because you misread what I wrote and lack the proper context in any case :) Case in point you quoting Wikipedia - absolutely "MOBA" has come to mean the same thing as DOTA-like, "ARTS" or other similar terms. I am literally complaining about how stupid the words are: "multiplayer online battle arena" applies to basically every game. TF2 fits the name better than DOTA frankly. The name "MOBA" was popularized by an idiot involved with HoN and unfortunately stuck with the mass audience who were too stupid to even know what DOTA was at the time ;)
Giant Killer General wrote: Personally I prefer the term MOBA over ARTS, because "battle arena" is a much more meaningful description to me than "action".
As I noted "battle arena" describes basically every game. "Action" is just a modifier on the more meaningful part of "RTS", which has a lot more to say about the genre than... "multiplayer" and redundant "online"... The name "MOBA" is just meant to capitalize on the popularity of "MMO" and similar modifiers, but they drop all useful descriptive features of it.
Giant Killer General wrote: However nobody should care about whether someone uses the term MOBA or ARTS.
In terms of the discussion of Deadhold, absolutely. But bitching about the silliness of the term was precisely the point of my post :)
Giant Killer General wrote: P.S. Dawn of War 2 looks a hell of a lot like a MOBA to me.
Right so this is where it gets into silliness. If you truly thing DoW2 is closer to something like DOTA than something like Starcraft, you clearly haven't played it. Seriously, creeps and lanes aare integral parts of "DOTA-like" games. If it doesn't have that, it has nothing to do with DOTA. If you think games that have units with abilities qualifies as a MOBA then the term is even more meaningless than it already was. Hell Warcraft 3 - upon which DOTA was built - would qualify based on a lot of these arguments and I hope the irony there is not lost on folks who came into these games later than that :)

So yeah please continue to comment on the actual details of Deadhold (about which I offer no opinion) and so on, but lets not drag unnecessary baggage and classifications into the discussion that are clearly inappropriate.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by shadow »

sup bros&hoes

Completely agree with GKG, LIMP, KIRK and others on "FUCK THAT SHIT" train.
Deadhold not even close to m3 , totally disappointing and irrelevant (IRRELEPHANT) for us.

keep my fingers crossed for better future (GKG U TAKING TOO LONG TO MAKE YOUR JOB)

YOLO !
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Asmodian »

Paris, honest question are you getting paid by the Deadhold team to try and spin a positive outlook on that game to the myth community?

It's honestly one of the worst games I have ever played. I would probably enjoy any random cellphone game more than playing a game of Deadhold. I have played a ton of games and am always at least good, if not great (Trow Belt, 2x Mwc champ yada yada yada) at games so I'm speaking with a lot of experience.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Giant Killer General »

punkUser wrote:That's because you misread what I wrote and lack the proper context in any case :)
Actually I think I understood you just fine. But perhaps you are misreading what I wrote.
punkUser wrote:Case in point you quoting Wikipedia - absolutely "MOBA" has come to mean the same thing as DOTA-like, "ARTS" or other similar terms.
Well I simply wanted to clarify, because your statement below was unclear:
punkUser wrote:"Action RTS" as Valve terms DOTA is a much more appropriate name. Deadhold certainly qualifies as the latter, although from the recent videos it still trends more towards the RTS side than the "DOTA-like" side.
When you state that "Deadhold certainly qualifies as the latter" (meaning it qualifies as an ARTS) after you just finished comparing ARTS as "more appropriate" than MOBA, it could be implied that it somehow qualifies more as an ARTS than as a MOBA, which would further imply a difference between ARTS and MOBA. If Deadhold qualifies as an ARTS, then it also equally qualifies as a MOBA. I think we both agree that they are the exact same thing, but I believe the clarification was still useful, if not for you, then for anyone else reading it.
punkUser wrote:Honestly "MOBA" is a ridiculously meaningless name that is basically information free;
punkUser wrote:I am literally complaining about how stupid the words are: "multiplayer online battle arena" applies to basically every game.
And I am saying that the term ARTS, and every other genre label you can think of, has the exact same problem. Take the terms "first person shooter" and "real-time strategy" as an example. These could both technically mean the exact same thing. A first person shooter is done in real-time (not turn-based), and it has strategy (because every game has strategy). Yet people still subjectively interpret these labels and convey meaning to them that are mostly understood and widely accepted.

Additionally, there continues to be an increased blurring between the lines of traditional genre categories, such that most games have elements from multiple genres. So it is completely open to interpretation based on how you prioritize what is more important. Gamers will classify the games however they think best summarizes their understanding of what the game is. It is completely subjective. You are "literally complaining" about this, and I am "literally saying" that this is a completely pointless thing to complain about. It is like arguing over different opinions on what a piece of food tastes like. Why would you care so much about what label a gamer chooses to summarize their understanding of the game by anyway?
punkUser wrote:Calling stuff like Dawn of War 2 (or any Relic RTS) "MOBA-lite" is a bit silly: they are RTS games, through and through. RTS does not require base building as many games in the past have demonstrated. Whatever you want to term Myth its main differentiation is that you don't (usually) acquire any units during the game.
punkUser wrote:Seriously ... lanes aare integral parts of "DOTA-like" games. If it doesn't have that, it has nothing to do with DOTA.
Again, this is like, your opinion.

First, nobody said that an RTS requires base building. Every myther probably already understands this because they know that myth is an RTS. But just because it does not have base building does not necessarily also make it an RTS, since MOBA's and FPS do not have base building either. Also, if lanes in the map design were a defining feature for a MOBA, then every cracks/clash game in myth would magically qualify as a MOBA as well, while all the other normal open maps would not be. And at what exact point would a map design cross the threshold from having open enough terrain, to being too restricted with lanes? It is completely subjective and makes no sense. So the lanes in the map design are hardly the defining feature of a MOBA/ARTS for me. You could remove the lanes (i.e. have an open map) on traditional MOBAs and they would still be widely considered MOBAs.

Again it is all subjective based on how you prioritize importance. For me when I am looking to understand a game, I only focus on the combat mechanics. I do not care about the lore, the map, whether units are built or not, or other non-combat gameplay. It is only about the combat mechanics which defines the genre for me. And correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Dawn of War 2 have, 1) a "main avatar" character, 2) which levels, and 3) that can be revived? If so, these are all similar to a MOBA.
punkUser wrote:Right so this is where it gets into silliness. If you truly thing DoW2 is closer to something like DOTA than something like Starcraft, you clearly haven't played it.
Correct, I have not played it. But I just gave specific reasons why it might be compared to a MOBA, and I am still entitled to my opinion regardless. That is simply how I choose to understand it. Again, you should not care.

The only good argument I think you have said so far is that Dawn of War 2 does not have creeps. Creeps are definitely a feature closely related to the MOBA genre (even though Warcaft 3 also had them). But again, combined with the other MOBA-like features, this is probably why people are describing it as "MOBA-lite" as you stated. So this is where that label starts to make sense for some people.
punkUser wrote:lets not drag unnecessary baggage and classifications into the discussion that are clearly inappropriate.
What is inappropriate about it? I am just letting you know that I disagree, and why.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Pogue »

Oh look GKG and Paris are making it about themselves again....
shadow wrote: Completely agree with GKG, LIMP, KIRK and others on "FUCK THAT SHIT" train.
YEAH, FUCK THAT SHIT TRAIN!

Seriously though, this stinks on ice. Dunno why you all whipped out your cocks when it was first announced. Need a new game? Go get a PS4 noobs.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by switch »

Myth is real time tactica. The end.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ucCxtgN6sc[/youtube]
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by par73 »

Asmodian wrote:Paris, honest question are you getting paid by the Deadhold team to try and spin a positive outlook on that game to the myth community?

It's honestly one of the worst games I have ever played. I would probably enjoy any random cellphone game more than playing a game of Deadhold. I have played a ton of games and am always at least good, if not great (Trow Belt, 2x Mwc champ yada yada yada) at games so I'm speaking with a lot of experience.
It is not that I 'try to spin' a positive outlook on Deadhold, I just happen have an outlook more positive than others; no doubt I may have shared a similar opinion to yours or others about DH at some point.

DH's one of the least complete games you or I have ever played, is it not strikingly obvious this game has always been in it's earliest stages of development? For all the experience you have as a gamer, why do you choose to compare a pre-alpha to betas or live releases? You're disproportionately setting expectations for DH to fall short, but it makes sense.
People are biased toward confirming their existing beliefs. Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence.

The DH you've played is the Unreal DH, even with no UI or other features the Unity DH already trumps that footnote. They were willing to take 2 years of their efforts and essentially dump them down the drain to start from scratch on an engine that can produce a better product, this catches my attention; this says to me as a consumer, "We're willing to try something new."

I found this quote relative to my perspective in regards to the,
"Deadhold Judgement by the Teenage (literally) Myth Community":

"I don’t enjoy observing people as much as I used to. Everyone acts like they’re on stage. People used to come to The Village sheepishly. Nobody was sure if they belonged. We didn’t know if we were artists.
These days everyone walks around like they’re contributing something. There’s no angst anymore. There’s too much certainty. And that’s a shame. Because all the best art comes from people who feel like they don’t belong. Art is a way of proving your existence. When I was a young man, a person that I respected told me that I was an artist. It was one of the worst things that could have happened to me.
I stopped walking into museums or galleries with a sense of awe. I walked in feeling like an ‘artist.’ My arms would be crossed. If I liked a piece, it was ‘good.’ If I didn’t like a piece, it was ‘bad.’ I didn't feel vulnerable anymore. I lost my humility. And that’s when growth stops.


Image
Humans of New York
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by wwo »

Paris seems to be fixated on an objection -- Deadhold isn't the next Myth -- that was never made. The term "moving in formation" was claimed but never demonstrated, and was, in fact, misused. Getting the terminology correct goes a long way towards communicating ideas. "Beaker" and "test tube" are incredibly similar terms (glass, container, purpose, main field of association, etc), but it's the differences that are far more important. [edit: More important in their specialized area of use. A chef could probably use them in the same manner for the same results; a chemist, never. Thus, flouncing the definition makes the user look uninformed.]

p.s. DoW2 is an rpg+moba. What it is not is some kind of derivation of DoW, which was my only point.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by BIG KROK V8 SS »

This thread needs AXED. I've read 0/9 pages of it. Fuck that game.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by limp »

I fucked your mom's game, and it wasn't tight.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by NewMutator »

My experience with the Myth community leads me to think that the hate being directed at DH is simply a way of managing expectations.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by par73 »

wwo wrote:Paris seems to be fixated on an objection -- Deadhold isn't the next Myth -- that was never made.
I think you have my fixations wrong, all I've done is seek to answer "So what is the deal with Deadhold?" by using a metaphysical approach. What is it, what's it like.
I don't even like grim, he thought he could buy my favor by adopting a Kenyan after his 2 balls married rabican and/or creme;
but grim's initial question resonated with me, as it did with other amateurs on the subject. I've found the conversation aesthetically pleasing as a gamer.
There is plenty of misinformation about DH and having played its pre-alpha stages on both engines I have no problem contributing to this topic by sharing my opinion about it or clearing things up when people are wrong.
I've had to fixate on the perspective that Deadhold isn't the next Myth.

like "yea bros dead hold sucks yea yea its so bad it could be a MOBA you don't even have buttons bro and the units and the spells and omg pog usually gets boners to dudes voices on videos and this time it ain't workin out and what the fuck is a sapper bro total rip off and bla bla look at that this reminds me of something that came out that never worked out lets draw comparisons event though this game has never been launched."
This is one way to approach the "What is the deal with Deadhold?" question, you can see some people have taken their time to explain it repeatedly.
Reasonably however, it's fair to compare DH to something you've never played when DH is something you've never played.
Just as it's fair to compare DH to something you've played when DH is something you've played.

We all have the experience of playing TFL and SB, unfortunately have the memories of what M3:TWA was and is to us.
But what is DH? What is DH like? Besides the obvious, noods.
Even talking about DH is taboo met with negativity, I've found it very entertaining to say the least :P



wwo wrote:I'm still pulling for them. The genre is criminally underserved. But I do want them to get their terminology straight.

I think using Myth as a hype stepping stone was a terrible idea. Too many expectations. I've seen what they're doing, and it's fine on its own. It also looks more customizable than originally presented, even if they don't provide full support for modding. They need to get a simplified, playable alpha out.
The reality is using Myth unit concepts (2 abilities max, balanced through trading) is something I like because I have yet to see it anywhere in a long time and continue to play a game with this type of system.
Let me rephrase what you said so you understand my perspective.
par73 wrote:Using the myth community as for feedback or hype is a terrible idea. Too many expectations. I've seen what they're (DH) doing, and they're (DH) fine on their own. There are more custom functions on the new engine than the old engine, hopefully they will provide support for modding. The game is in pre-alpha though, they had a playable alpha out and scrapped it before adding more features as the press releases about the engine change indicates.
Part of my perspective is objectively true as evidenced by people trying to confirm non-facts to be facts in order to support their opinions, and that no one here wants to hear about DH; It's like they are butthurt M3 flopped or butthurt people are working on something that reminds them of Myth when it's not.
You say this was never said, but it never had to be. Although I might have asked for people to go try it themselves, I'm not intentionally trying to recruit anyone; I'm just here to answer the question. :P

I consider it an RTT and also opt not to mix the RTT genre with RTS (although they do come from the same family tree), or I guess I started calling it an "ARTT" because let's face it RTT lived and died with the myth series.
People and scholars alike have often debated whether they use the terms tactics and/or strategy appropriately, who knows maybe I'm using them wrong and have confused you horribly once again. I think there are other topics or posts about that here so I'll move on.
Take someone who's who plays LoL or DotA2, give them a Deadhold experience and tell them it's a MOBA and they will say you are crazy.
It's not just that the game is in pre-alpha stages or lack substance to be a "great" or "popular" game.
DH is nothing like what a "MOBA" means to the general public, whether DH said it or not, never has been and never will be.
Throwing DH in that genre is losing the race from the start to finish, it wouldn't be what it is.
Is it RTS? Maybe if you consider Myth to be a RTS. I don't. I reserve that opinion as one of those gamers who enjoys that niche unique RTT gameplay provided by m2.

The key similarity between DH and myth is you have very basic units each with specific simple skillset which you can coordinate to win the battle; pure RTT.
The key difference: DH combines that with system with a system of giving the player a choice to use hard counter abilities with long cooldowns, which they select in the same pre-game while selecting their units.
This is a much different game with those abilities now playing a role, an added mechanic that in the end helps DH support the rights to DH as they are not and never were marketing a new myth.
I imagine if DH was ever released and supported 3rd party, I would at least play the game with no spells and see what comes of it.
While DotA, et al. is an insanely successful outlier in comparison but it's not the only 3rd party to get popular in the gaming industry (nor was it the first).

I think a huge mistake I made was believing DH was also of the squad-based variety, it is not.
You can move each unit individually, you cannot do this in games such as dow2, coh/coh2, rise of nations, total war etc.
Myth is not classified as squad based, in this way I also do not think DH is classified as squad based.

wwo wrote: The term "moving in formation" was claimed but never demonstrated, and was, in fact, misused. Getting the terminology correct goes a long way towards communicating ideas. "Beaker" and "test tube" are incredibly similar terms (glass, container, purpose, main field of association, etc), but it's the differences that are far more important. [edit: More important in their specialized area of use. A chef could probably use them in the same manner for the same results; a chemist, never. Thus, flouncing the definition makes the user look uninformed.
sorry about that 2nd video, i didn't watch it until now and you missed it: at the very end of the march you can see them change their march in formation, 1:32-1:33.
It was demonstrated, but briefly; The caster is typing the commands into the console, there is a huge delay by the time this is accomplished anyone unfamiliar with the game would not get a good look at it.
That video is not a path finding tutorial for the future game, the gameplay is so pre-alpha the only user input is through the console and left/right mouse buttons.
There are no keyboard keys to press; it was definitely not meant for viewer eye candy.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Pogue »

par73 wrote: omg pog usually gets boners to dudes voices on videos and this time it ain't workin out"
Can't even tell you how many times I've jerked off to your shoutcasts babe.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by par73 »

you're doing it wrong brah, not enough tits in my cast
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Zak »

http://hl.udogs.net/files/Uploads/%20Us ... holdv2.zip

I know Deadhold is the next big thing in myth mapmaking, but I thought I would make the crossover everyone has been REALLY waiting for.

MYTHHOLD! Now you can play myth but use the awesome status changing abilities you loved in that Deadhold game! I created several Statusmancers, so to speak. They don't deal direct damage (except for a pitiful staff attack), but they can cause it plenty of other ways!

1. Life Drain: Your wizard will cast this at short range to drain the life of an enemy. They can be saved with a heal or two, or casting the opposite spell called REGENERATION!

2. Regeneration: Ever wish you could heal and fight at the same time? Now you can! With the lovely regeneration spell, any unit this is cast on can charge fearlessly into battle with no worry of tactics.

3. Confusion: Miss the warlocks of confusion from the campaign? Not anymore! Each wizard is equipped with their own confusion spell! Fair warning though, they can only target themselves, they aren't warlocks after all. Always a good choice for a quick getaway from some malicious melee.

4. Self Destruct: Tried regeneration, confusion, and every other trick up your sleeve to escape from the enemy who just keeps on coming? Out of options? Maybe you just want to land-wight somebody. Well this is the spell for you! Your wizard will self destruct with the hit of the T button! They will also destruct upon death caused by an enemy when this spell is activated.

5. Deflection Shield: Tired of your melee getting plinked with arrows and enemy artillery? Use this spell! It will create a protective shield that will prevent missiles from entering. Stifle that pus ghol! Make that dwarf's bottle blow up in his face! Also great for carpet bombing, if you're a fan of that.

6. Attraction Vortex: Ever wondered what would happen if you turned your deflection shield inside out? Stop wondering and find out! Reap the benefits of disrupting enemy missile units, with the added benefit of tearing them to pieces with shrapnel! Thats right, any sharp object in this field is going to cut through units inside of it, over and over, until they can escape. You thought it was dangerous to walk on satchels, now you have to be wary of walking on dead bodies too!

7. Paralysis Ball: Run out of pus or ghols? Never fear, with the handy paralysis ball, your wizard can set your dwarf up for an awesome explosion by freezing enemies hit by his mid-range paralysis orb!

8. Stone Orb: Got melee units closing in fast and happen to have a full tank of mana? Shoot one of these short range doomsday orbs at them and its like rolling a bowling ball down the alley at some pins. Watch out though, if you don't get a strike, you're all out of luck!

9. Healing: Last, but certainly not least, the reliable journeyman heal. These guys are equipped with 10 mandrake roots which they use as ammunition for healing and their various other spells. Use them with care, because if you run out of roots you will find you can only cast deflection shields and attraction vortexes!
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by grim »

Way to ruin a thread, Zak.

I guess I was kinda hoping for some kind of a future for our community within Deadhold. I guess it'll be nothing like Myth, then. Meh. Where's Renwood when you need him?
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by NewMutator »

It remains to be seen, grim. The game is still being worked on and it's final form is still up in the air.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Zak »

I saved this thread grim. Why shit all over someone trying to save myth?
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by DBSeeker »

Seriously grim - stop shitting on Zak you grimhole.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by Giant Killer General »

NewMutator wrote:It remains to be seen, grim. The game is still being worked on and it's final form is still up in the air.
Some parts of the game are up in the air, however it's not really up in the air that deadhold could be like myth though. That part has never been up in the air since the game was first announced and the developers have clearly stated multiple times that they want to go in a different direction than myth (not to mention their gameplay videos).

So while every game under development or undergoing any kind of change is in a constant state of having some part of it that it is up in the air, it cannot be implied that the entire game is up in the air still. Clearly some parts are not up in the air, and as development continues, the parts not up in the air grow bigger while the parts still up in the air grow smaller.

For it to be up in the air in regards to being like myth, the developers would need to say that they want to reverse every previous statement they made about how they want to make something quite different from myth. They would instead need to start saying something to the effect of how they want to make the next spiritual successor to myth and provide some changed gameplay videos to reflect that.

So if they ever do that, then great, and let us know. Until then, I don't care, and the majority of the myth community shouldn't care either. It is a different kind of game than myth based on the present evidence, and will continue to be until proven otherwise.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by shadow »

The real question is who is developers of DH and why they touch MYTH and US ?
They not a mythers, and not from Magma. They don't have focus, and just wasting everyone time with that unviable game.

Almost two decades after Myth released, and where right, relevant people with vision, skill and money ?
Taking MYTH brand from T2, contacting JJones, Tuncer, Ramirez (and not for actual developing but as consultants for keeping spirit, story and all that talmudic details and feels), also hiring Marty for soundtrack, but put actual developing on shoulders guys like GKG (and Limp, and Kirk, and even, his majesty god damned euro trash grim), and put it on beta-test as soon as possible, cause practice and deep connection with community is the only way.

I believe that is not just about relieving the glory days for bunch of oldfags.
MYTH have huge potential in right hands. And for SOME reasons nothing happens, nothing going on !
Only guys like renwood clowning around in the dead end.

WHAT THE FUCK
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by tlantz »

There's a lot to read on this thread. I didn't read any of it :D

The Deadhold people are ex-Myth right? And they're making a game in Queens. Everything is better in Queens. So obviously going to be good. Seems simple.

I'm waiting until it all works on a computer I don't need to go buy and then I'll just shell out the $50 and play a few games.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by vinylrake »

Postby shadow » 20 Mar 2016, 01:10
The real question is who is developers of DH and why they touch MYTH and US ?
Deadhold developers include fisj & iggy. fisj made the first 3rd party map for Myth TFL was founder of the Vista Map Making Cartel and both fisj & iggy worked on Myth 3, so I'd say they have Myth in their blood.

If the deadhold team is touching you, you should tell your parents or someone in authority.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by dac »

vinylrake wrote:
Postby shadow » 20 Mar 2016, 01:10
The real question is who is developers of DH and why they touch MYTH and US ?
Deadhold developers include fisj & iggy. fisj made the first 3rd party map for Myth TFL was founder of the Vista Map Making Cartel and both fisj & iggy worked on Myth 3, so I'd say they have Myth in their blood.

If the deadhold team is touching you, you should tell your parents or someone in authority.
authority? cute.

fortunately there is no two letter asshole ghosting around here waiting to find a reason to vent his sexual frustration by banning players on a dead game.

thanks for not being a douche, PunkUser
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by BIG KROK V8 SS »

this thread needs its wrists slashed vertically, just like grim's.
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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Post by wwo »

Never has being right felt so wrong.
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