Results/Standings - Draft Tournament (UPDATED)

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 24 Aug 2015, 18:48

I'm not sure why you would say crun doesn't try as hard. He is trying harder than any other captain in the tournament. He has the most to prove. He talks shit all the time trying his hardest to prove me wrong about his capping. But at the end of the day he just isn't as smart. It is way more about intelligence than effort. A top captain with 0 effort can still outcap a mediocre captain putting in maximum effort. Effort is just icing on the cake. Hell I hope he does prove me wrong, because myth could always use more good captains. And as soon as that day comes I will be the first to praise him, but he hasn't shown it yet. We will have to wait and see what happens next week.

I just find it so funny how so many people (you and switch) have such strong opinions about something (capping) that you have never found success doing yourselves, and actually think you know better than the educated few (asmo and I) that have already demonstrated our success. Not to say that the ignorant aren't entitled to have an opinion, but face the facts that it doesn't hold much weight. If you wanted it to hold more weight then go prove you can do something with your ideas.

I guess this is just the typical delusion that most people have about one thing or another. And we all know adren is more delusional than most when it comes to myth.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 24 Aug 2015, 20:22

I do not have the time, nor desire, to devote to captaining. I tried it once in whatever draft tournament that was, developed strats for 7 players based around our power players and we had 5 show to the match, with none of our best players being there. Not exactly a good scenario for showcasing my captaining ability. I guarantee I'd be a fine captain if I had a team that was dedicated to showing up, like the rosters you tryhards assemble year after year. Please, continue your nerd rage.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 24 Aug 2015, 21:04

And yet, you never did. So despite any number of great excuses for why you never did it, at the end of the day, you still never did it. And you don't have the experience or eye for it until you do it, and do it well. It is no coincidence that all of the people listed as "top captains" have years of experience doing it in tournaments, and none of us started great at it right away. You are nothing special so stop pretending you could do it and be great the first time you tried to captain a team through a tournament.

switch · Post by **switch** » 24 Aug 2015, 21:55

GKG never holds an opinion on something he hasn't done personally. It's incredible, actually, to think of the years of effort behind every single one of his many opinions. This is why he's top of the game, after all: total commitment.

I think the haters are going to be blown away by Cruniac's skill, both as a god-like captain and a roleplayer titan, against team Limp next week. I started researching this statement back in 2008, in fact, I actually traveled back in time and replaced Cruniac in every single match he's played (all those times "Cohan" was there) without anyone noticing, just so I could be here, on this day, to type this message with complete and utter conviction- hardly approaching the same level of effort GKG puts in, I admit, but I'm merely mortal- and I can safely say I've never held a more specific, accurate, empathetic, and committed opinion in my life. I mean, "Cruniac"- is no doubt looking forward to the epic Week 3 of this legendary Draft Tournament.

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 24 Aug 2015, 22:46

Fuck me running you guys post a lot of shit.

Let's talk about results in the GoS era:

What captain other than gkg or myself has won anything?
Can't recall anyone

Whoes gotten the closest to unseating gkg in mwc?
Certainly not the 2013 or 2014 squads

My goodness you had TWO 'top tier' captians stratting against me in 2015.

This is laughable.

Lord---Scary Owl · Post by **Lord---Scary Owl** » 24 Aug 2015, 23:05

I would like to point out. Before the matches I said "we all know paris will rush us". The thought was denied.
But Paris rushed in 4/5 games. Look who was right.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 24 Aug 2015, 23:06

Ratking wrote:Fuck me running you guys post a lot of shit.

Let's talk about results in the GoS era:

What captain other than gkg or myself has won anything?
Can't recall anyone

Whoes gotten the closest to unseating gkg in mwc?
Certainly not the 2013 or 2014 squads
My goodness you had TWO 'top tier' captians stratting against me in 2015.

This is laughable.

::Face palm::

I have won more tournaments than you as a captain. I'm pretty sure the only one you have won was the first draft tournament?

Has anyone really got close though? My team took GKG to 7 games in 2014 as well,but he still had a SD advantage just like we had this year. The quality of the finals in 2014 was much higher than this year (although I did enjoy this years finals minus the numerous amount of mistakes).

At the very least I can say I have never been out captained by THOR.

http://gateofstorms.net/tournaments/TWS2014/rounds/349

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 24 Aug 2015, 23:10

Asmo has won a draft tournament, and you have won a draft tournament. Asmo has lost an mwc finals match, and you have lost an mwc finals match. How would you consider your record any better than asmos? At least Asmo will always step up and captain to help his team when no one else around is capable to do it.

Yes because clearly my strats this year were better than they were in 2011, 2012, or 2014 when I didn't have asmo. If anything they were worse, and Asmo never had anything to do with making the strats.

Also amusing how you would call that close even after:
1) we beat your team like 4 out of 4 times throughout the tournament, with 2 of the matches being close
2) we still had sudden death advantage to fallback on in the finals
3) we voluntarily gave you Gekko and Limp to sub in the finals just so we could have a good match

What you really should be asking is: who has ever gotten a massive roster upgrade with subs in an mwc finals match before?

I have never seen anyone so proud to lose an mwc before. Rat are you going to pull another happy gloatfest like you did after your fake win in the tws13 finals getting crushed by coonbros?

It is quite laughable indeed.

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 25 Aug 2015, 01:36

Massive roster upgrade? Asmo's mwc 14 finals was 6v7 and he got rocked 4-1-2.

What else have you won?

You throw QR results at me? Please gkg. This was a team build from the ground up. I didn't have a team with a core of my pals that I play with every year. Takes time to build some chemistry.

Step up and help? That's exactly what I did for mwc. I stated before the draft I had no interest in capping a team. It's due to real life shit and a lack of time.

TWS14? I showed up and found out I was capping. As the match was starting. I didn't even know the maps. I didn't cap a single game the entire tourney before that match.

Gloatfest? I didnt post a word after the match. Perhaps you keep my name out of your posts?

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 25 Aug 2015, 02:39

I am referring to a tws win you had against coonbros (maybe in 2012) where they basically gave you the win in sudden death after raping you in the main portion of the match. You then proceeded to gloat about the win for weeks as if it meant anything. This feels a lot like that again. You give yourself waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit. You want to compare asmo's mwc finals to yours - okay that's fine, but the scores look pretty similar to me. Even if you want to somehow claim your mwc finals performance is more impressive (and I have no idea why you would even bother claiming this with such similar outcomes) you are still a lot more inconsistent than asmo as a captain when comparing your full tournament records side by side. At the end of the day you both are about even, I am not sure why you would think you are somehow above asmo in any way shape or form. Personally I lean towards asmo over you, but it is close enough.

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 25 Aug 2015, 03:11

Meh, whatever. I said what I needed to say.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 25 Aug 2015, 03:38

Giant Killer General wrote: 3) we voluntarily gave you Gekko and Limp to sub in the finals just so we could have a good match

What you really should be asking is: who has ever gotten a massive roster upgrade with subs in an mwc finals match before?

Whoa. That happened? Who were the two they were replacing? (other comparably good players?)

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 25 Aug 2015, 04:32

I guess you could say they replaced rawr and slate, their next 2 best players that weren't at the match. So no, not even close to comparable. Gekko and limp were big upgrades for them.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 25 Aug 2015, 06:07

Ratking wrote:Massive roster upgrade? Asmo's mwc 14 finals was 6v7 and he got rocked 4-1-2.

Who cares if it was a 6v7 the play from game to game in that match was better. "got rocked" just lel. There wouldn't have needed to be a game 7 if we got rocked, 5/7 games were close, the exceptions being Mixed Blessings where i made a bad call and game 7, which I rather not remember.

GKG says the best match he has played in is a 4-1 victory over NP. I tend to agree that the quality of play within the games is more important than what the actual score says.

Ratking wrote:What else have you won?

The draft tournament I hosted in 2013
The draft tournament Myrk hosted in 2013
TWS 14 (probably the biggest finals raping of any tournament)

Ratking wrote:You throw QR results at me? Please gkg. This was a team build from the ground up. I didn't have a team with a core of my pals that I play with every year. Takes time to build some chemistry.

Step up and help? That's exactly what I did for mwc. I stated before the draft I had no interest in capping a team. It's due to real life shit and a lack of time.

TWS14? I showed up and found out I was capping. As the match was starting. I didn't even know the maps. I didn't cap a single game the entire tourney before that match.

Are you a good captain or are you not? Because that sounded like a lot of excuses to me.

If you are the 2nd best captain, which apparently you think you are you shouldn't need to prepare at all to beat anyone other than GKG.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 25 Aug 2015, 07:27

you wanted an 8v8 and pretty much insisted that they play, iirc.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 25 Aug 2015, 14:44

Well there you go, Asmo has more tournament wins as captain than I realized. So that's 3 tourney wins to rat's 1. That makes much more sense.

Yes, this years' mwc finals was easily the worst played finals since probably 2001. I think the problems were:

1) the shotty match scheduling for the finals where attendance was still short
2) it was the only mwc ever that subs were needed in the finals
3) it was the only mwc ever that featured a WTC team in the finals
4) the 20 minute wait times between every game waiting for kilgrath (and 1 or 2 others) to download a map
5) which turned it into like a 4 hour match

After all of that it left everyone pretty drained and annoyed which had a lot to do with it. It certainly lacked the feel of an mwc finals.

Chohan · Post by **Chohan** » 25 Aug 2015, 20:20

Giant Killer General wrote:I'm not sure why you would say crun doesn't try as hard. He is trying harder than any other captain in the tournament. He has the most to prove. He talks shit all the time trying his hardest to prove me wrong about his capping. But at the end of the day he just isn't as smart. It is way more about intelligence than effort. A top captain with 0 effort can still outcap a mediocre captain putting in maximum effort. Effort is just icing on the cake. Hell I hope he does prove me wrong, because myth could always use more good captains. And as soon as that day comes I will be the first to praise him, but he hasn't shown it yet. We will have to wait and see what happens next week.

I think only pallidice and kirk understand my shit talking-boasting and rivalry fighting with other people as just a general way to keep myth interesting and fun (example I actually really like playing with rawr it makes it way more fun). I would never not try during a game that other people want to win, and I'm not going to show up to lose but in general when WW2 died out my try hard desire died out as well. I generally put about 1 minute pre match into each map for quick unit trade, and decide where to send people the day of during PT. Which I also feel is enough time to be fair to everyone that shows up to make sure its never a cluster fuck.

I feel rat did a fairly decent job overall in MWC, but I would say for the finals me and eastwind combined probably played to about 50-70% of max capability making things not look as good on our end. Not having rawr there and subs playing took away from some of the competitive joy for me though.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 25 Aug 2015, 20:41

Small community. Hardly anyone has the same motivation, yet some judge by one-size-fits-all (e.g. showing=caring). I'm almost disappointed you bothered to explain/defend.

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 25 Aug 2015, 22:13

gkg you're so full of shit your eyes are brown. The truth is you would say anything to discredit me.

More truth: you only care about lording over people. You LOVE coming on these forums and telling people how there less than you blah blah blah.

Listen man, I don't give a fuck. Please read that again slowly. I'm only here to have some fun, why the fucking buzz kill man?

par73 · Post by **par73** » 25 Aug 2015, 22:23

Giant Killer General wrote:Well there you go, Asmo has more tournament wins as captain than I realized. So that's 3 tourney wins to rat's 1. That makes much more sense.

Yes, this years' mwc finals was easily the worst played finals since probably 2001. I think the problems were:

1) the shotty match scheduling for the finals where attendance was still short
2) it was the only mwc ever that subs were needed in the finals
3) it was the only mwc ever that featured a WTC team in the finals
4) the 20 minute wait times between every game waiting for kilgrath (and 1 or 2 others) to download a map
5) which turned it into like a 4 hour match

After all of that it left everyone pretty drained and annoyed which had a lot to do with it. It certainly lacked the feel of an mwc finals.

But you're going to value asmo's three draft tournament wins over three lackluster draft teams in comparison to ratkings victory over your team? Seems very out of character for you, especially since your team was stacked with brilliant players albeit they didn't quite live up to their peaks of brilliance.

The whole knock on crun perhaps not being intelligent enough in order to be a "top tier" mything captain is a bunch of garbage within itself.

As far as I can recall, Cruniac has never paid any effort or attention into being a myth captain or leading a team. He's done a great job this far, this far tying asmo (most successful draft tournament captain of all time via 1st place wins) who hand picked his team and cruns, following up with a demoralizing stomp of my team. The match against limp's team (expected to win every match) will be one of the few 2015 matches worth watching. I can most definately tell of the excitement by all these myth high school gabbling girls clucking their jaws off in anticipation.

The idea everyone is measured on a single scale of intelligence is primitive early 20th century theory, which has since been advanced to acknowledge multiple forms of intelligence.
Unfortunately for some people here, myth captaining/playing ability is not one of those multiple intelligences measured and recognized; one may even argue you are a dumbass for assuming they can be correlated.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 25 Aug 2015, 22:44

GKG is laser focused. I don't know why anyone is getting insulted. He's not calling anyone names. He has an opinion, and he presents facts to back it up. You can dispute facts and argue opinion, but I don't understand how making it personal helps anyone's case. If he was as much of a dick as presented here, he'd stick around in the randoms I host, berating everyone for not being as good as him. You know what he does? He checks out the personnel, and either stays or sees himself to the door. If anyone had a right to be elitist about Myth, it's him. Personally I'd love to get a time machine and have a tourney with him and Phod (giving the latter a couple of months to get up to speed) on opposite sides.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 25 Aug 2015, 23:11

par73 wrote: The idea everyone is measured on a single scale of intelligence is primitive early 20th century theory, which has since been advanced to acknowledge multiple forms of intelligence.
Unfortunately for some people here, myth captaining/playing ability is not one of those multiple intelligences measured and recognized; one may even argue you are a dumbass for assuming they can be correlated.

Just LOL Paris. I'm almost positive GKG was referring to 'myth intelligence' or in other words, understanding of the game. Normally I would be a little shocked that someone would take what he said literally, but I have been around you long enough that I'm not.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 26 Aug 2015, 01:50

I find myself liking wwo so much more lately, he understands me so well. No homo wwo.

Rat, I just don't get why you wouldn't be satisfied with being considered a top captain and leave it at that. It has nothing to do with me. As crun said (and I agree with everything crun just said), you did a good job in the finals, no one is saying otherwise. But if anyone needs to go back and re-read what was written, it is you. You were given an inch, and decided to take a mile.

Ratking wrote: What captain other than gkg or myself has won anything?
Can't recall anyone

Whoes gotten the closest to unseating gkg in mwc?
Certainly not the 2013 or 2014 squads
My goodness you had TWO 'top tier' captians stratting against me in 2015.
This is laughable.

You must be outside your mind if you didn't think I would call you out on your bullshit with that statement. The truth is, it is you that is trying to diminish other captains (particularly asmo) to somehow propel yourself. As a competitor I also find it blasphemous that anyone would be satisfied with and brag about a loss. It just reeks of desperation to find any excuse to gloat.

As wwo said, there is absolutely nothing personal here happening with anyone. I would be equally quick and eager to hand out big compliments if I felt they were well deserved. I just tells it as I sees it.

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 26 Aug 2015, 02:11

Who did I call a name? I said gkg was full of shit and followed it up with statements I think are true. Perhaps you've lost your focus wwo?

Given an inch?

Asmo: "Top Tier Captains: GKG, Asmodian, Ska, Limp, Ratking [for the record this isn't a list of what I actually consider the top tier captains, but rather a list of names that even have a small argument for being top tier."

Just curious smo, who exactly were you talking about in the above? Why even add a bs statement like that? Let me guess: "I wanted an out in case of blah blah blah"

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 26 Aug 2015, 02:30

Ratking wrote:Who did I call a name? I said gkg was full of shit and followed it up with statements I think are true. Perhaps you've lost your focus wwo?

I think wwo's comments were pretty spot on. You looked like you were throwing a tantrum bro. There is no reason to get mad for being 3rd-6th greatest captain, not all of us can be The 2nd greatest strategist & captain of all time.

Ratking wrote:Asmo: "Top Tier Captains: GKG, Asmodian, Ska, Limp, Ratking [for the record this isn't a list of what I actually consider the top tier captains, but rather a list of names that even have a small argument for being top tier."

Just curious smo, who exactly were you talking about in the above? Why even add a bs statement like that? Let me guess: "I wanted an out in case of blah blah blah"

I added in that remark because I think all those players I mentioned are top captains, but within that group of players there is a wide separation.

If I were to rank the 'top captains' into tiers it would be

GKG
Asmodian,Rabican(didn't mention because he hasn't played in awhie)
Ska
Ratking,Limp

So I guess to answer your question it would be you and limp.

limp · Post by **limp** » 26 Aug 2015, 03:09

asmodian considering himself on the same tier as rabican is downright hilarious

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 26 Aug 2015, 03:13

Just to clarify I'm not saying I have achieved as much as Rabican or Ska. They have both achieved a lot more than me as captain, but yes I am saying I'm a better captain right now than they have ever been.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 26 Aug 2015, 04:34

@rk: I saw more personal invective in these posts than argumentation. Look, you're the one that invited me onto your mwc team, then unceremoniously erased me from the roster without even a condescending pm from you giving me a heads up. If I had anyone to take a well-substantiated shit on, it would be you. Clearly, you want the respect of your peers, but you've completely ignored the fact that you've gotten that already, and now you want more. You've essentially said that anyone that has teamed under you for the last 2+ years has only been in the cause of your personal quest for respect; a huge insult to those that thought they were joining a chill captain who would put forth his best effort to win, and would be fair to his teammates. You've made this about you, and not your team, and that's the biggest obstacle for the goal you seek to achieve.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 26 Aug 2015, 04:48

wwo nailed it. well said, well said.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 26 Aug 2015, 05:03

Asmodian wrote: GKG
Asmodian,Rabican(didn't mention because he hasn't played in awhie)
Ska
Ratking,Limp

Jesus Christ man... do not put yourself in with Rabican and above Ska...

They have WAY more tournament success as captains that you... in much more significant eras. You cannot compare a handful of 4-team draft tourney victories to legit, large, competitive tournaments...

Just wow, man. Wow.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 26 Aug 2015, 05:06

K i just saw you posted more since I started writing that reply...

Again, WOW. You are certainly NOT a better captain than either of them ever were... who the fuck are you trying to fool? They captained teams through large, competitive, double-elim tournaments TO VICTORY. You have captain a few teams to victory in 4-TEAM DRAFT TOURNAMENTS.

GOLF

CLAP

tirri · Post by **tirri** » 26 Aug 2015, 05:43

Adren is correct, asmo is spewing complete blasphemy.
You cannot take things out of context like that and start calling yourself one of the greats. Yes, strats have evolved and yes, asmo has adapted. That is irrelevant. What matters is the level of competition and how much ahead of the curve the captain was.

Rabican had plenty of competition and was waaay ahead of the curve.

Today myth literally has 3-4 active captains and asmo has put them all on his list. That is laughable. There really is no curve to be ahead of.

This is like reading on einstein's theories then catching up on some new advancements in the field and then calling yourself the greatest scientist of all time

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 26 Aug 2015, 06:26

I wasn't listing all-time top captains there. I was listing top tier captains that are relevant to now. There isn't any way to compare BTT,whoever the hell civils captain was or any other captains to now because the time gap is too great.

I'm not even going to disagree about your competition. There isn't enough competition to test myself very much, the only one really is GKG, which I have only had the opportunity to cap against one time. This is all hypothetical and I would hypothetically piss in the kool aid of all those captains I listed.

tirri · Post by **tirri** » 26 Aug 2015, 06:40

Your problem.is that listing relevant captains right now is completely irrelevant

switch · Post by **switch** » 26 Aug 2015, 06:48

Aren't you guys all choked GKG won MWC again this year?

What are we going to do if this was the last MWC ever and GKG retires now? Is it possible that NO ONE will EVER defeat GKG at MWC?

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 26 Aug 2015, 06:48

It's all subjective. Was having 4-5 teams that could win a MWC compared to 2-3 in recent years really that big of a step up? A tournament win is a tournament win. You still have to go through 2 good teams to win a tournament. Back in the day you probably only had 1 more match against a good team considering you woudn't play all the top teams in DE since other good teams are knocking others out.

limp · Post by **limp** » 26 Aug 2015, 07:05

I don't know, I kind of think you are looking at this the wrong way. For your current relevant captains mentioned, several of them are either generally inactive (rabican & ska) or uninterested in captaining/thrust into the position (myself & rk). What these players have in common, as well as most current willing captains if any are unnamed, is that they are all simply aware of many strategies and trades, just as many before them in a much more populous age, but we were generally assigned the position, few of us took it. Meanwhile, the majority of active players choose not to captain, as they find the game negatively altered for them when they must assume the role.

I think you are failing to account for many aspects of this entire debate, with the most pronounced being the complete lack of options in the way of capable, motivated, and invested captains, let alone players.

Tirri has it right on the nose, and not in a negative way, the general motivation of the entire player base is waning, and has been especially since the NC/np/cox/gkgteam quadrangle disbanded.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 26 Aug 2015, 07:16

limp wrote:I don't know, I kind of think you are looking at this the wrong way. For your current relevant captains mentioned, several of them are either generally inactive (rabican & ska) or uninterested in captaining/thrust into the position (myself & rk). What these players have in common, as well as most current willing captains if any are unnamed, is that they are all simply aware of many strategies and trades, just as many before them in a much more populous age, but we were generally assigned the position, few of us took it. Meanwhile, the majority of active players choose not to captain, as they find the game negatively altered for them when they must assume the role.

Agree to disagree. You act as if me and GKG literally spend hours strating for every match and somehow gain an advantage over others by doing so. I don't and from my experience GKG does not with the exception maybe being the finals.

The only match I would care enough to put in that effort for would be vs GKG if we both had stacked rosters.

limp wrote:I think you are failing to account for many aspects of this entire debate, with the most pronounced being the complete lack of options in the way of capable, motivated, and invested captains, let alone players.

Has there ever been though? Since I have been playing in tournaments from 2004 until now it has pretty much been the same.

switch · Post by **switch** » 26 Aug 2015, 07:21

Asmodian, you and GKG know as well as I do that this is the END OF TIMES. The team that can compile the players who will simply show up (ie, care) is now the default best team in the game, and, by this time next year...

... let's face it, probably the ONLY team in the game. This discussion is beyond pointless, and I think you'd even agree with that.

My hat goes off to everyone who made it this far. You're all myth legends in my books.

Why does anyone still play this game? Is it the nostalgia? The thirst for MWC glory that now only entertains the hearts of about a dozen people, and them not even that much anymore? Is it the knowledge that we literally dragged this game out for 17 years, all to come down to this? Is it the game itself, as truly unique as it is? I feel like the latter has a lot to do with it, even for this old 2D pixel game, when we're immersed in a world of shinning 25 gigabyte super games that all play exactly the same and in fact suck, there's still M2sbr out there, that game that doesn't give you more units (unless you get reinforcements!), that makes you play for every second and every % of life. Something about myth captures the struggle that games like Star Craft and DODA and COD just can't do right, even with millions of dollars and huge dev teams. I never met any of you people, but we're all part of this in someway now, dragged into this abyss from which we may have finally, really, truly, squeezed out everything that can be squeezed. Kirk may be right, MWC may not have really mattered (it never really mattered to me since, well, as GKG would say, I'm simply not good enough at it), but it's now literally the only game I play other than starcraft2 once in a blue moon and actual military simulations which I wouldn't even call games. A couple of years ago, I speculated that we'd reach Marathon levels of die-hard pretty soon, and we're there now for sure. If you logon to the marathon server, you'll see 1 player, and no games. That is what's coming, as soon as the autohosts dry up, as soon as the Deadhold beta happens, or whatever. This MWC was a wakeup call for a lot of people I think, and this Draft Tournament may be the last Myth tournament many of you ever play in. I still cannot believe I am one of the last myth players on earth. There's something romantic in that, somehow, even if it means sharing a fate with fucking Pogue and Kirk and the rest of you crazy fuckers. But here we are. At the end.

tirri · Post by **tirri** » 26 Aug 2015, 07:49

the field was completely different in 2001 for example but even then myth was already 3 years old or whatever and interest was fading fast.

going by mwc2001 full team list (i dont know if those are the final rankings or qr rankings) there were a lot of good teams with even rosters, similar care and good captains (for their time). A team like evil inc is 17th (voodoo, ashen, limp, broken cow). Syndicate is 13th with shaitan, qtip, raziel, hannibal. Iron chefs were 12th, triple nipple 11th (akira, scorpio, ammo, olympus).
Those are just examples. All those teams had at least OKish care and had a good core of 4-5 players that taken into account the standards of 2001 were pretty much on par with the top 4-5 players of today's finalists. So at least about 15 teams that in my eyes are comparable to today's finalists.
The finalists in 2001 had pretty much superstar rosters and their key players in 2010 for example thrown into any tournament team were always in the top 3 players of pretty much any teams roster (rabican, cw, fire, sb, gekko) and so on

tirri · Post by **tirri** » 26 Aug 2015, 08:11

also still reminiscing about 2001, a team like Poop that had a lot of care and great attendance but no really strong team players, albeit a full roster of good solid players (me, dean, red mustang, xylene, shaggy, akiba, igmo and so on) finished 20th in the tournament. However we only lost 41-38 in the bottom bracket against the team that finished 4th overall (Cirque). I think that is a pretty good indicator on how much wider and more even the playing field was those days

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 26 Aug 2015, 08:12

The measure of a captain is the measure of their indispensability. Did they make their team great, or did their team just make them look great? If you take out rabican does NP still win? If you take out ska does NC still win? If you take out me, do my teams still win? And do we win just as strongly?

Think of all the captains of every mwc championship team, were they really all that great? How much of the success was the product of the team or of the captain? Do you really think that there wasn't a single captain of an mwc championship team in all of those years that merely was the guy who happened to be sitting in the captain's chair when the team was on its way to winning regardless? That would be quite the odds if that never happened.

Raz had a role captaining the mwc03 and mwc05 BIA championship teams, yet everything I know about him, having played with him for many years, says he was an absolutely atrocious captain. Having played with Ska and NC, he was not the central figure making strategies, and rarely if ever gave orders. He played a role but he was maybe only 1/2 of the part, does that even qualify him as the official team captain? Maybe NC and some other teams had multiple people that together fulfilled the captain role and all of its accompanying responsibilities, how do you account for that? Storm captained tcox to a win in mwc07 after the np/tcox mega merger. Look at the mega roster he had, and they still only won by the skin of their teeth. Does anyone even consider him a great captain? As for Rabican, he was ahead of his time around 2001 when the game was still young. His lead didn't last long, hence no string of consecutive mwc wins. A lead when the game is still that young hardly counts for anything, otherwise we would say civil and BMF were great too, which is of course outlandish. Being a pioneer, someone who was merely there first, and being the best at something are two very different things. I still think rab was good though (when he was sober). I touched on most of this in a few big posts in this thread as well: http://forum.gateofstorms.net/viewtopic ... 8&start=20

What I can say is that I have stood at the top of the myth capping mountain and seen the full view of it. I can appreciate how much we don't know. We don't have many data points to derive from for much educated comparison. If the game was much bigger like the more recent games that are now in the era of esports, with pro circuits and all of that, we could know a lot more.

What I do know is that there were other levels of capping even higher up in the sky that none of us reached. And I can say that safely because I was close enough to see it. I could imagine it, but I couldn't reach it. And don't try to kid yourselves, I was the best there ever was at capping in this game, whether you want to believe that was through sheer care, effort, smarts, or whatever, it doesn't matter, I was the best. The truth is that no one could reach the new levels without a much much larger competitive scene magnitudes greater than myth ever achieved at its peak.

If you think anything myth achieved at the height of its activity was ever very "competitive" in comparison to top esports games these days, then you are sadly mistaken. We had a thousand competing players? They have millions. We had at most maybe a hundred really good players? They have hundreds or thousands of pro and semi-pro players. You say there are only a few potential finalist teams? There was always only a few potential finalist teams. There aren't many willing captains? There was never many willing captains. Think bigger. We would all be mere pawns compared to that level of competition.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 26 Aug 2015, 08:25

tirri wrote:also still reminiscing about 2001, a team like Poop that had a lot of care and great attendance but no really strong team players, albeit a full roster of good solid players (me, dean, red mustang, xylene, shaggy, akiba, igmo and so on) finished 20th in the tournament. However we only lost 41-38 in the bottom bracket against the team that finished 4th overall (Cirque). I think that is a pretty good indicator on how much wider and more even the playing field was those days

Wrong, I played on Cacra who placed 8th. We were a bunch of relatively average players at the time, a good 1 or 2 tiers in skill level behind the top teams. We could never compete at the top, they mopped the floor with us. There must have been 50+ absolutely worthless teams at the bottom of the rankings if we placed 8th. That match result is certainly not indicative of 20 close teams competing for the finals. It had 4-5 teams that could compete with each other at the top, and that's it. Very similar to every other mwc ever since.

Not to mention most people including myself were playing on a dial-up modem connection (14.4k AOL connection ftw) since broadband was not common at the time. 300ms was considered a good ping, 500ms was average. Lord knows how anyone could consider an era of dial-up internet pings to be the height of competition with that much delay. Anyone that did have broadband that early would have been at a massive advantage over everyone else, artificially making them look better than they really were.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 26 Aug 2015, 08:30

Cirque placing was an abomination to tournaments everywhere.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 26 Aug 2015, 14:33

Ok so I just quickly looked over some of the results from 2001 to see how many true contenders there were (teams that could actually win the tournament). I'll compare the results from the teams that placed 3-8 and how they did against NP & 12 inch because the point is to find the contenders. I'll also only list the 5 games series because it appears once you went in the Bottom Bracket in 2001 the matches were only 3 games (LOL). Anyone can get lucky and steal 1 game in a 3 game series and make it appear close.

3. Monkey Island

2-3 against 12 inch early on in the DE, but tied 53-53 in points, but got knocked to the bottom brackets (I'm guessing the 2-3 was the tie breaker

0-5 against 12 inch. Later on in the Bottom Bracket finals they got stomped by 12 inch in the rematch and none of the games looked even close based on the final point score 33-100

Conclusion: Contender I'll give them the benefit of the doubt since they played the runners up close early on in the DE, but to be honest there are teams in recent myth who had better showings against the finalist who get no credit as contenders.

4. CiRQUE

Never played any of the top 2 teams (We are talking about the 4th place team that didn't even play the top 2 teams one time). The only decently ranked team that they played in a 5 game series was IC (iron chef), which they lost to 2-3. Since this team didn't play 1 of the finalist the best information I could find to see if they were a contender was to look at IC and see how they did against either finalist. IC lost to NP 0-5 with a score of 0-82 late in the tournament.

Conclusion: Not a contender. They won a bunch of unconvincing 2-1 victories in the bottom bracket (never against a finalist) to get them their 4th place finish

5. Glue The Moose

Played Np late in the tournament (appears to be the semis of the Top Bracket) and lost 0-5 with a score of 12-89

Conclusion: Not a contender. They only played one other team in the top 10 other than NP, which they also lost (in another 3 game series zzzz)

6. The Cagey Inquisition

Lost to 12 inch 1-4 with a score of 37-60 late in the tournament. Looking at this teams results it appears that this team was actually good, but just inconsistent. Got knocked out by the 3rd place team 1-2.

Conclusion: Contender. Actually appeared better than teams that finished above them that were not contenders, but did not place as high as GTM and Cirque because they had much harder match ups in their bracket getting sent to the bottom bracket and eliminated by 2 top 3 teams.

7. MoR

Didn't play either of the finalist and lost 1-4 35-61 to CI the only other team they played that I have deemed a contender.

Conclusion: Not a contender.

8. Cacra

Didn't play either of the finalist. The only contender they played mi in which they lost 1-2 27-43

Conclusion: Not a contender

Summary: There were only 4 contenders. The two I listed and of course the two finalist. People who had success in these early tournaments remember it how they want to remember it, which is fine, but you are wrong about there being a numerous amount of teams that could have realistically won the tournament. In-fact from the results I just posted you can see that most top teams never even played contenders, why is this? because usually one mid-tier team would knock one of these top 10 teams the bottom brackets semi early in the tournament and then they would go on a win-streak winning a bunch of 3 game series, which allowed them to never play a finalist.

I'm going to try and be objective and I'll concede the point (which I have actually always thought) That the 2001 mwc and other mwc's near this era were more competitive as a whole and it shows by how a lot of top 10 teams lost to teams outside of the top ten to get knocked to the Bottom bracket or during the QR.

Just because one of these other teams knocked someone to the bottom bracket it does not make themselves a contender. WTC beat TMNS in 2013 (and in more than a 3 game series), which most people considered the 2nd best team, but everyone knew that WTC was not a contender, just a good middle of the pack team.

So yes, early mwcs did have better/more middle of the pack teams, which probably resulted in more fun matches even though these middle of the pack teams did not have any really shot at winning the tournament. If you are looking at the top competition, contenders who could have won the tournament then it is no different from any other MWC.

This took too long to write, but hopefully it will at least enlighten some of you old schoolers (even though none o you will ever admit it) that regard MWC 2001 as head over heels above all other MWC's that you guys are very biased when you try to act like you were in a tournament that had 2x as many contenders as the rest of the MWC's.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 26 Aug 2015, 14:46

PS: I'm not trying to diminish anyones MWC win. A MWC win is a MWC win. What I am trying to do is defend the MWC wins of people in recent eras who others try to diminish because of a lack of teams. It's about quality not quantity.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 26 Aug 2015, 15:55

That is exactly right asmo. Also I just looked at this supposedly close match between poop and cirque, and it was a 3 game series that went 2-1, and the scoring system back then had some games count for way more points than others, it is just nonsensical so the point score doesn't mean shit. A 3 game series also doesn't mean shit, anyone can steal a game. And as asmo already noted, cirque also had an artificially high rank with an easy schedule, and weren't even contenders themselves. Asmo is even stretching it a bit there with counting those contenders to give the other side a benefit of a doubt or best-case scenario. You might say they had a chance if NP or 12 inch had a really bad day, but an extremely small chance at that. They were contenders as much as most other 3rd and 4th placed teams throughout mwc history were contenders.

Those 3 game matches in the bottom bracket, that shitty point system, and shotty attendance (many of the matches were played grossly undermanned), really hurt the credibility of that tournament though and is why I say we don't even have that many data points for comparison.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 26 Aug 2015, 16:26

tirri wrote:The finalists in 2001 had pretty much superstar rosters and their key players in 2010 for example thrown into any tournament team were always in the top 3 players of pretty much any teams roster (rabican, cw, fire, sb, gekko) and so on

Nope.

CW and Gekko, sure. Rabican possibly depending on the year. Sb & fire? Not even debatable they defiantly couldn't be considered top 3 players on any finalist roster from 2010-present.

Any of those players you listed could be good players on a finalist team any year, but top 3 on any finalist roster? come on man that's a major stretch.

nitro · Post by **nitro** » 26 Aug 2015, 17:10

i think its nostalgia for me limp. i played this since i was 10, never invested so much time (both in game & out) on anything else. hard to walk away from that. is myth a good game? sure, but had i invested time in another game i think i would play that once in a while too.

i haven't played in many years so i honestly i don't have an opinion on this thread or know what happened in a whiile. but i would think a power captain is more important today than i.e. 10 years ago given the general lack of gaming activity by other team members.

i am just picking on one of gkgs comments regarding captains value being measured by their indispensability. a captain is of course indispensable if the rest of his team doesnt play regularly enough to click as fast or know the maps or if he can himself hold 40% of the units and crush any 2-3 players on opposing team.

i assume a top tier team nowdays has all a roster of good players i would recognize from back then, but really, how many are active enough to even compete with the top 2-3 players on each team? take away one of those top 2-3 players (captain or not) and then i guess that team probably loses more than 20% of its capability. On the np example, i guess if rab wasnt there to play someone would jump in and do some fair job capping. if gkg or asmo are not there today, then i would imagine the next best player cant really carry the team the same way.

or maybe i am wrong and the skill difference between #1 player on a team and #7 is just the same as 15 years ago.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 26 Aug 2015, 18:25

It's funny because of all the players tirri just mentioned, with the exception of rab, cw, and gekko, I was probably on about the same play level as all of them around 2001-2003. Raziel for one I knew very well and we played with each other all of the time at a relatively even level. And I can just compare them to the historical gauge that I know for my own skill level to rule them all out as being any good since I was a 2-3 baller back then by today's standards. I knew next to nothing about the game back then compared to now. And if mwc01 had already been plagued with a decline in care / interest, why is mwc00 not considered an even better mwc? Didn't mwc00 have even more teams too? It makes no sense, the logic contradicts itself.

Of all the players mentioned - rab, cw, gekko, (and to a lesser extent limp) were the only ones who were ever relevant on top teams after mwc01. And there's a reason for that. Everyone else was bad and never improved. Either they quit playing or Myth Darwinism's law of natural selection gobbled them up into obscurity. So very few from mwc01 were able to survive.