Winter warm up - kb style

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 14 Jan 2013, 04:43

Ok go ahead and post if your coming to play, but its not necessary in order to play. What it will help with is figuring out what day/time will work best. Was thinking of having one time for Americans and another for anyone one else with time issues.

Nominate yourself for captain if your up for it, I'll be selecting the final four. The tourney will run for three weeks. Two for seeding, last week being the top 2 squaring off. Each captain can suggest a map an gt, I will choose 1-3 depending on if you want to play 5 or 7 games per match.

The games will start this weekend. Hopefully my paid expenses trip won't jam me up. Scoring will be w-t-l in the event of a tie we'll use % from previous match.

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 14 Jan 2013, 11:23

I could captain if no-one cares that I don't really play and won't prepare.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 14 Jan 2013, 13:22

I might be willing to Cap for something like this if peeps don't mind a noob cap

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 15 Jan 2013, 02:26

OK cool guys, probably end up using both of you.

Dant would you like a 3pm est time on a weekend or a more euro friendly time?

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 15 Jan 2013, 13:59

3pm EST is 8pm here and should be good.

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 16 Jan 2013, 00:28

OK then.

So first round will be on saturday 3pm est. Which means were playing this weekend. Dant and LN should go ahead and post 2 maps they would like to play. If turn out is low we'll just go with 2 teams instead of four. I'll post the 5th map after I see your suggestions.

Gonna copypasta this in initial post.. or grim can mb I don't have access.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 16 Jan 2013, 04:25

Maybe make a list of maps and we'll choose from that. That way I don't get thrown under the bus for making "lame" map picks

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 16 Jan 2013, 12:55

Hey as long as you don't pick 6 team allies then I think you're safe.

I'll pick Green Hell (2t dark) KOTH from the Green Paradise plugin. Also Mjilaphobia Territories from the Mjila plugin since it wasn't used during MWC.

So if LN wants to pick 2 light maps we'll be gud!

grim · Post by **grim** » 16 Jan 2013, 14:47

Ratking wrote:
Gonna copypasta this in initial post.. or grim can mb I don't have access.

Copy/paste what?

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 16 Jan 2013, 17:26

Did you decide how you gonna score this?

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 16 Jan 2013, 17:52

Guess I wasn't paying attention to your original post, 7 games would be too many IMO. 5 is tested and works while 7 means that we're looking at a solid 2 hours. Hey I might be able to do 7 but 5 is my preference.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 17 Jan 2013, 00:49

How about Stalk on the Borderlands, Territories and CTF on Creep?

par73 · Post by **par73** » 17 Jan 2013, 19:45

7 should only be used for finals heh

i can also captain

par73 · Post by **par73** » 17 Jan 2013, 21:42

also new mutator, in regards to the 'don't mind a newb cap thing' maybe draft pick would go by how the caps are ranked so lower skilled players could get best pick, however they will be lacking the knowledge of who's experienced as who, and teams need to be balanced for a draft to really work!

PRE RANKINGS ARE IMPORTANTS

SamTheButcher · Post by **SamTheButcher** » 17 Jan 2013, 22:54

If this is where to sign up I'm signing up.

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 17 Jan 2013, 23:16

If you're concerned about team balance Par, I'm happy to let LN have first pick and to simply alternate picks rather than go snakepick.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 18 Jan 2013, 01:35

Rat make the thread / post about sign ups for players who would like to participate in the draft considerations

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 18 Jan 2013, 03:24

Score will be based on w-t-l, mainly this is important for captains. However a player's win ratio is also important and the best few will be recognized. Yes, 7 maps was a little overaggressive so we'll do 5. Those picks were fine and I'll throw in a 5th one tonight. Grim I was just going to post an update on match times (saturday 3pm est) on the first post. Now that I think about it, ppl can just read the thread.

If we have the players for 2 games, I'll cap on the fly if needed. But I would prefer not to do this, to avoid bias.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 18 Jan 2013, 03:42

Due to LN's awesome map picks, I would like to offer my army of peachiness to the battles that lie ahead!
CREEP!

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 18 Jan 2013, 03:56

Might want to promote this on marius boards and the facebook group mb.

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 18 Jan 2013, 04:50

I'll play in this

SamTheButcher · Post by **SamTheButcher** » 18 Jan 2013, 12:25

This starting tomorrow the 19th? We just show up and teams will be picked then?

grim · Post by **grim** » 18 Jan 2013, 14:14

I can give you a separate forum for this too in case you want it.

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 18 Jan 2013, 15:25

STB wrote:This starting tomorrow the 19th? We just show up and teams will be picked then?

Yes

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 18 Jan 2013, 20:49

Hey guys I made you a quick and dirty logo for kickballerz. I'll give you versions optimized for mariusnet & facebook later today. The image link is:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-w3Li ... allerz.jpg

And it looks like this:

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 18 Jan 2013, 23:05

Sorry wrong link, its this

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lk9U9 ... llzers.jpg

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 18 Jan 2013, 23:28

Yeah man, real quick and easy (hopefully). The final map will be Four Leaved Fen dark FR.

Summary:

Games will start tomorrow the 19th at 3pm est

LN and Dant are caps (kb/pg rules)

Maps

Green Hell (2t dark) KOTH 8 min (Green Paradise plugin)

Mjilaphobia Territories 12 min from the (Mjila plugin)

Stalk on the Borderlands Territories 12 min

Creep CTF 14 min

Four Leaved Fen Dark FR 12 min (The Four Leaved Fen Tournament Edition 2010)

Depending on how many show, we could have 2 games going.

Players can only be drafted once per week. Please observe the rules, Dairy Queens suck.

--------

Yeah grim lets pull this to a seperate sub forum. I'll start a thread for players, hopefully a few ppl do some TA's

grim · Post by **grim** » 19 Jan 2013, 06:47

You got a forum now.

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 20 Jan 2013, 02:40

Posting updates and stats shortly in new sub forum (tournaments)

Thanks for playing! (Special thanks to MM for hosting and making cool banner image!)

SO.. we did not get to finish the last game (creep ctf) unless it happened after I left. Series was 2-2.

I'll have to think about what were doing moving forward to week 2. Maybe we just add another week and call this a tie.

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 20 Jan 2013, 13:36

We played the 5th game, consensus at the time seemed to be that you were AFK in lobby.

I don't hav the film so hopefully someone else saved it.

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 22 Jan 2013, 23:39

And who won?

btw I'll have more time to work on this in the coming days. Been super busy, plus I'll be home saturday which is awesome!

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 23 Jan 2013, 01:10

team pewpew laz0rs won the 5th game despite Cruniacs underhanded tactics (flanking).

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 23 Jan 2013, 03:20

I don't have the fifth game either.

Ratking · Post by **Ratking** » 23 Jan 2013, 03:55

Stats link:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32997724/KB%20 ... k%201.xlsx

*5th game not included

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 23 Jan 2013, 08:51

Umm, I dont think listing the "averages" for people that did not play in all the games really makes sense. At least do not list them with other people that played in all 5 games. Or list a collum for # of total games played by each player.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 23 Jan 2013, 13:56

Ok I just watched this on Newmutator/LN's youtube channel, we won this sooo WTF?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJNLypGbf7s

Ok, Um yea there is something SCREWY going on here. We had 4 flags, they had 2,
THEN at 0:05 they get a 3rd flag, and we lower to 3 flags, then it ranks them ABOVE US now they have 3. This should not happen because we just had 4, so not only did we have 1 more flag then them, but we had 3 flags FIRST as well. Then LN gets a flag at 0:01 giving us 4 again, Dants has 2, and it puts us on top for a split second. Then dant's team gets another flag to get a 3rd at 0:00 and it puts us on the bottom again ??!? We should have won this, no in fact I think we DID win this! It certainly would NOT be the first time Perm has lied about who won!

Another case of the engine counting events a split second after the game ends like what happened in MWC whatever a few years ago? And if so, then why is it when we had 4 flags first, and 3 flags first, that it scored them above us earlier in the game? Was this 1.7.2 game play? They only way I know for sure that you lose when you had more flags FIRST is when you had 4 of 6, then they get a 3rd making it 3-3 and they CONTEST 1 of your flags for a second. 2 flags and 1 contested then 3 = loss

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 23 Jan 2013, 17:10

Just watched LN's shoutcast and this does seem to be the case, weird.

edit: NM dantski explained it

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 23 Jan 2013, 21:06

No MM dants did not explain it. according to how he described it, we should have won yet again.

From dant's youtube post:
"Dantskii 3 hours ago

Here's basically how you win in terries. 1. You tag all flags, 2. you have more flags at end, 3. You tag the most flags first, this is what happened as our team tagged 5 or 4 flags before your team this game. It doesn't matter who last had most flags before its equal this is just how it works. Whether it should work like this is debateable."

from my youtube post:
"Dants, according to what you just said, then LN's team should have won AGAIN!
Because at 08:52 for a split second we had 3 flags while your team only had 2. at 08:15 we get 4 flags first THEN at 08:12 we have 5 flags before your team.
At the end we also had 4 flags before you did. We won this game. Myth scoring is screwed up somehow. We won this."

At it was 1.7.2 gameplay so....an engine bug that needs fixing for 1.8?

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 23 Jan 2013, 21:37

Hey you're right... WTF CHETZ

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 23 Jan 2013, 22:43

It appears ln's team did indeed tag 5 flags first in that game, therefore I concede that game since its clearly not correct.

edit - asking the magma guys about it

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 23 Jan 2013, 23:01

Can someone post the film here or at thetain? I'll try to take a look at what's going on in the next few days, time permitting.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » 23 Jan 2013, 23:18

I thought they fixed terries scoring some patches ago so the team who tags the most flags last wins (in case of tie). I say fixed because this is how it should be.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 24 Jan 2013, 00:03

Aki wrote:I thought they fixed terries scoring some patches ago so the team who tags the most flags last wins (in case of tie). I say fixed because this is how it should be.

I agree that "owned most flags last" is more desirable, otherwise early rushes to grab flags are overvalued compared to actually ending up with an advantage at the end of the game (but perhaps not having the time to completely eliminate the other team). This is opposite FR, but the goal in territories is to *hold* flags, so having them get tagged late in the game *should* penalize you.

Is that interpretation consistent with what happened in the game? Again if someone can post the film I can check the logic and probably clarify what's going on and if it has changed recently (don't see any notes in 1.7.x that relate, but it could be before that).

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 24 Jan 2013, 00:23

punkuser, I can E mail it to you if you PM me the address.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 24 Jan 2013, 00:34

Terries (My favorite myth game type since 1997) has NEVER been about who tags the most flags first, unless you get all the flags on the map and end it.

Its always been about who held the most flags LAST. so if I had 4 of 6 flags, and the other team had 2. Then before the game ends they get a 3rd flag making it 3 to 3 flags, it puts the team that had 4 last on top in the scoring. Or to put it another way, the team that previously had only 2 flags then got a 3rd is on the bottom. The only time it gets tricky is when, you both have 3 out of 6 total flags, then the enemy JUST contests a flag, so for a moment one team only has 2 flags and one contested flag. Even if you get that 3rd now contested flag BACK without the enemy every owning it, you did not own 3 flags last, and thus the team that just contested a 4th flag while already owning 3 wins. At least, I think that is how it works. Otherwise it would be that if you had 4 flags then 3 then 2 and 1 contested and 3 again without the other team ever having 4 that you should win.
But none of this explains why Dant's team was given the win in perm. And it would not just be a problem with last second scoring as seen in MWC whatever a few years ago in FR (was it FR? I was not in the game so I did not keep track) that magma did look into and say was a bug and fixed it later. Because In the game we had 4 flags, then 3 and it put us on the bottom, which it should NOT have.

At this point maybe dants is just super sneaky and knew about this scoring bug, and thats why he picked Miljaphobia!
Dants you tricky devil you! ~8^)

blahblahblah · Post by **blahblahblah** » 24 Jan 2013, 04:12

Renwood wrote:Terries (My favorite myth game type since 1997) has NEVER been about who tags the most flags first, unless you get all the flags on the map and end it.

As usual you are so ignorant of what you are talking about that you use all caps to emphasize a point THAT ISN'T EVEN TRUE. You probably are so used to losing that you never get close to even tying, but in a game of terries where each team holds the same number of uncontested flags at the end of the game (when time runs out), the team who has held their flags the longest (in other words - the team that tagged their flags before the other team tagged theirs) is the winner. AFAIK, it's ALWAYS been that way, so wrong again dumbass.

Maybe i am wrong, but I don't think so, but in any case at least I am not a dumbass shouting my ignorance to the world.

Punkuser - DON'T CHANGE ANYTHING BASED ON WHAT RENWOOD SAYS - Renwood has made not understanding the rules of multiplayer game types into a long and illustrious career - basing decisions on his complaints would be like taking etiquette advice form Donald Trump.

Renwood · Post by **Renwood** » 24 Jan 2013, 06:35

Punkuser, did you check the film? Anybody send it to you yet? are going to look at the source code to see how its scored?

<------------------OOO I AM A SPIDER NOW! WHOOT!-

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 24 Jan 2013, 06:44

Ok I checked the code. For reference, the current logic has been like this since 1.5.1... so for a long time. Also it is not protected by a game version check, so I'm assuming that means that previous to the additional tie-breaker logic being added that it would have just resulted in a tie or something, not an opposite scoring.

Renwood wrote: Its always been about who held the most flags LAST.

That's roughly true, but it's a bit more subtle. It's who achieved their maximum flags held last. i.e. not "whoever had more right before it was tied up".

Assuming no team is eliminated, the rules are basically:
a) If either team has more flags, that team wins, otherwise...
b) If either team's maximum held flags for the game is higher, that team wins, otherwise...
c) The team that achieved their maximum most recently (i.e. last) wins

So in the linked game, the reason Danski's team won is because they achieved their 5 flags (the maximum that both teams achieved) most recently.

Somewhat hilariously, Pyro found a thread from 2007 where Dantski talks about exactly the same situation:

Baron LeDant wrote: We played Creep Terries (6 flags) and the other team quickly got into a 4-2 flag lead, after some fighting they tagged another to make it 5-1. Now by tagging all but one flag first, they should be winners in the case of a tie in flags.

Just before the end of the game, our team then went into a 4-2 lead before the game ended at 3-3. Perm clearly showed our team as the winner.

So Terries should sort ties by whoever tagged the most flags first, but it appears in that game that it went by who had the lead last time before the flags were tied.

So is this simply a one off or is terries still broken? And if yes, is there any chance of it being rectified in a final 1.6?

Deju vu

Anyways, personally I think this logic is as reasonable as I can imagine. Territories is a bit of a "tie-happy" mode and any logic for resolving ties has issues, but this logic seems to have less than most other solutions. In any case it's easy enough to make house rules if you want different logic I think.

Thanks for posting though - it's interesting that few of us (myself included) actually were aware of the specific rules for terries scoring

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 24 Jan 2013, 06:46

Okay, after talking with a few of the Magma guys I've been assured that the rules do indeed indicate a win for team pewpew laz0rs. There are 3 criteria to determine a winner for Territories:

1) Whichever team holds more flags at game's end. Easy. But if that's a tie, then...

2) The game attempts to resolve a tie by giving the win to the team that held the most flags concurrently. If that is also a tie (as it was in this case at 5 flags apiece)...

3) The game gives the win to whichever team held on to that maximum number of concurrent flags most recently. In this case, team pewpew laz0rs held 5 flags closer to the game's end, so they are awarded the win.

Edit: Beaten.

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 24 Jan 2013, 07:14

Amazing people still don't know the rules for terries.