Myrgard

double post

GiantKillerGen wrote:You are just pulling stuff out of your ass at this point to fit your argument.

This statement is the biggest load of bullshit in this thread because I've dealt with nothing but people trying to pull stuff out of their ass to try and discredit the idea of a salary cap. Asmo tried to leave 6 players off the draft team rosters to show that 2 ballers didn't play for GKG or Ratking, and cruniac just falsely listed a bunch of random players and said they never showed up to downplay the player difference between TWS and MWC. I'm the one speaking rationally here.

GiantKillerGen wrote:and how does that NC cock taste zak? Or tirri cock?

Everyone agrees with someone on the forums, stop being retarded.

I'm not the only one who notices the people who ride your cock, or I wouldn't have made that statement GKG. I didn't say shit to tirri to get him to add me to NP, and WHO KNOWS the mad reasonings shaister made for adding me to NC. I certainly didn't jump into every thread where they had an opinion and immediately agree with or parrot it. If Asmo joins a team of yours after this behavior it would make him quite the hypocrite, after all his shit talk of not sucking cock to get on good mwc teams.

GiantKillerGen wrote:The only time anyone can argue that I stacked a team was for mwc11 with the bullz, but NC had that coming. We tied them in the QR anyway so it couldn't have been that stacked. You certainly can't say that SP was stacked, we got fucking swept for god sakes, and then won the BB finals after that by the skin of our teeth. I left NC in 2010 for the very reason of not stacking the team. The team I am trying to make now is arguably a weaker roster than SP even. Bottomline is if the salary cap fucks the team roster I was trying to put together, then there is much less incentive for me to play.

You got swept by another team that was stacked, how does that prove you weren't stacked? Also just because you have a stacked team doesn't mean the captain won't make a mistake, or the other players will have better teamwork than you. If NC had won that BB match it would have been an upset, plain and simple.

Did you even play in 2010? I recall you getting kicked off NC for trolling teammates and then being told you couldn't join The Black Company, so you opted out or made a noob team, or something. Way to take one for the team though.

The salary cap is going to require every team to make some adjustments and play with a couple of people they aren't used to playing with. Telling everyone you won't play if you can't have things your way is just an attempt to scare people into doing things your way. We lose people every year, it doesn't matter if they suck or are 5 balls, thats less people playing in mwc and less teams. They'll leave because teams are stacked or because they couldn't team with tirri/cho/shai/RP/Phod/hitlow/GKG that year.

I was agreeing with his list as a whole, you really expect me to go and specifically state which ones were and were not active? Yeah, Not doing that.

Also Rodekill isn't playing next MWC so that name was accurate in referring to mwc2013.

Asmo wrote:I was agreeing with his list as a whole, you really expect me to go and specifically state which ones were and were not active? Yeah, Not doing that.

Also Rodekill isn't playing next MWC so that name was accurate in referring to mwc2013.

If you agree with his list as a whole, then you're agreeing with his statement still, and are wrong. If you meant in general (once again, backtracking or being purposefully misleading by not saying thats what you meant to begin with), then yes those players had less activity but a lot of them showed up when it mattered, so you can't blame them for getting eliminated.

Cool, you know for a fact rodekill won't be playing in mwc 2k13, and wont change his mind no matter what. Thank goodness you're here to assemble his usual group of players in his absence.

I predict there will be one myther equal to or greater to rodekill's talent, who didn't play in mwc 12 and will be returning this year. Guess we solved that dilemma

Asmo tried to leave 6 players off the draft team rosters to show that 2 ballers didn't play for GKG or Ratking

You are not the brightest person Zak, as I already stated before in my reply you used the words "Forced to field".

They weren't forced to field 2 baller when they had 7+ other options on both finalist teams of 3 balls plus. No one forced GKG to bench you in the final game of the tournament. There was nothing in the rules that said that every player that showed up would have to play at least 1 game if you had a full roster. That was a choice that your team made.

Asmo will be joining my team for mwc (if I play) because I invited him to. I invited him to because he has demonstrated very good mything ability, intelligence for the game, and he doesn't have a poisonous personality.

Anyone else can rise up to play on a top team by getting better at the game as well. And they should be applauded for improving and thus being able to better contribute to quality matches; not discounted and trolled as supposed top-team / top-player cock sucker just because they got better than you and it made you butthurt.

Anyway, done arguing about it. It is really quite simple, I am going to make the team that I want regardless. I either play with the team that I want to play with, or I don't play at all. I am tired of these quasi-draft tournaments, this would be the 3rd one in a row, and I got other better shit I can be doing. I am not bitching about it. I think it is dumb and I will feel free to say as much. But really it ain't no shame in my game. Everyone else can knock themselves out.

thisforumsucks wrote:

Asmo wrote:I was agreeing with his list as a whole, you really expect me to go and specifically state which ones were and were not active? Yeah, Not doing that.

Also Rodekill isn't playing next MWC so that name was accurate in referring to mwc2013.

If you agree with his list as a whole, then you're agreeing with his statement still, and are wrong. If you meant in general (once again, backtracking or being purposefully misleading by not saying thats what you meant to begin with), then yes those players had less activity but a lot of them showed up when it mattered, so you can't blame them for getting eliminated.

Cool, you know for a fact rodekill won't be playing in mwc 2k13, and wont change his mind no matter what. Thank goodness you're here to assemble his usual group of players in his absence.

I predict there will be one myther equal to or greater to rodekill's talent, who didn't play in mwc 12 and will be returning this year. Guess we solved that dilemma

Yes I meant "in general"

History of the myth 2 world cup would disagree with you that a player with equal to or greater talent will be returning since there has been less teams in every mwc than the previous year every time but once.

Asmo wrote:

Asmo tried to leave 6 players off the draft team rosters to show that 2 ballers didn't play for GKG or Ratking

You are not the brightest person Zak, as I already stated before in my reply you used the words "Forced to field".

They weren't forced to field 2 baller when they had 7+ other options on both finalist teams of 3 balls plus. No one forced GKG to bench you in the final game of the tournament. There was nothing in the rules that said that every player that showed up would have to play at least 1 game if you had a full roster. That was a choice that your team made.

Once again nitpicking on THREE words I used, interpreting them in the most LITERAL way possible. Yet just now you said that you agreed with a statement "in whole", so interpreting your words should not be literal? You're arguments are full of inconsistencies, contradictions, and your best attempt at coming up with an attack on me is to call me stupid. Oh and to make a snide remark about me being benched in one finals game, when you've never even been a tournament finalist.

LET ME REPEAT ONCE AGAIN since you missed my reply last time due to curling up into a little ball. GKG was forced to field a 2 baller:

A. Because he was undermanned, players weren't showing up to matches at times, including the finals.
B. Because even though the rules did not explicitly state he had to play everyone who showed up, there is an OBLIGATION in a draft tournament to play people signed up on your roster, if they show up to games. Failure to do so would have you ostracized by the community and never allowed to captain a team in such a tournament ever again. There is no such obligation in a MWC tournament, nor would GKG ever have 2 ballers on his team.

So now that we clarified that would NEVER happen to a top 3 team in MWC, and that was the ONLY part of me saying TWS and MWC were different that you disagreed with, it makes your statement sound pretty fucking pointless. THEREFORE, your argument makes no sense, and is fucking irrelevant. Did I put that in simple enough fucking terms for you? lol

Asmo wrote: Yes I meant "in general"

History of the myth 2 world cup would disagree with you that a player with equal to or greater talent will be returning since there has been less teams in every mwc than the previous year every time but once.

Its cool you meant in general, but when you say "cruniac is being generous, there are 5 more players to add to that list" when he said that list didn't have ANYONE show up at all, that doesn't mean in general. So please learn to think before you speak.

Once again purposefully interpreting what I said incorrectly and instead spouting something like there being less players every year, just lol

GiantKillerGen wrote:Asmo will be joining my team for mwc (if I play) because I invited him to. I invited him to because he has demonstrated very good mything ability, intelligence for the game, and he doesn't have a poisonous personality.

Well I'm sure many people have different ideas of what a poisonous personality and a yes-man are. I'm sure you won't have to worry about kicking him off due to a salary cap.

GiantKillerGen wrote:Anyone else can rise up to play on a top team by getting better at the game as well. And they should be applauded for improving and thus being able to better contribute to quality matches; not discounted and trolled as supposed top-team / top-player cock sucker just because they got better than you and it made you butthurt.

First of all I made my statement because I (and a few others) predicted the reason he has been kissing your ass lately is to join your MWC team. I had hoped that wasn't the case, but I said it anyways because I figured it was true. Sure enough, it is. Coincidence? Nobody told me he was joining your team so why would I be butthurt.

You also may have missed the whole part of my post that stated why I hoped he wasn't joining your team. He has been fanatically trolling me for being on better teams than him, saying I sucked cock to get there. Here he is literally sucking your e-penis in the captaining thread and here, as well as on myth, and coincidentally he's joining your MWC team. I'm not saying thats the only reason, don't get me wrong. Just saying a lot of people saw it coming.

GiantKillerGen wrote:Anyway, done arguing about it. It is really quite simple, I am going to make the team that I want regardless. I either play with the team that I want to play with, or I don't play at all. I am tired of these quasi-draft tournaments, this would be the 3rd one in a row, and I got other better shit I can be doing. I am not bitching about it. I think it is dumb and I will feel free to say as much. But really it ain't no shame in my game. Everyone else can knock themselves out.

I was actually trolling, grim never said there would be a salary cap I just wanted to fuck with people.

I admitted to my mistake in the misuse of wording.

I haven't purposefully misinterpreted what you have said once. Maybe since this "misinterpreting" keeps happening you should look in the mirror and "think before you speak" and present your arguments so they do not need to be clarified.

Asmo wrote:I admitted to my mistake in the misuse of wording.

I haven't purposefully misinterpreted what you have said once. Maybe since this "misinterpreting" keeps happening you should look in the mirror and "think before you speak" and present your arguments so they do not need to be clarified.

I dunno bro you seem the be the common denominator here

thisforumsucks wrote:
I was actually trolling, grim never said there would be a salary cap I just wanted to *cruiser* with people.

bump

Actually grim did say he was considering the idea of a salary cap. After you made your self look like an ass you are trying to play it out like it was some attempt to troll? Insecure kid.

Asmo wrote:Actually grim did say he was considering the idea of a salary cap. After you made your self look like an ass you are trying to play it out like it was some attempt to troll? Insecure kid.

I'm sorry but all of my statements were true.

Do you have a screenshot of grim saying this? Perhaps its you trying to save face by claiming he said something that he did not.

thisforumsucks wrote:
Pretty sure I saw muse, storm, genx, qwerty, cave, akira, gamer, captain, jotun, monty, toxyn, all showed up to a at least one match and there are films to prove it. I'm pretty sure the same could be said of mark, sevendust, hadiez, and truth to a lesser degree.

I mean FOR FUCKS SAKE SP played a match in 2012 against tcox with this roster:

gamer, ramirez, akira, cave, genx, flatline, storm, rosaecrucis

Literally not 1 player on that entire list ever showed up for more than or even 50% of their teams matches, some far less. If your not showing up for 75%+ of your teams games your just a liability to them.

Chohan wrote:

thisforumsucks wrote:
Pretty sure I saw muse, storm, genx, qwerty, cave, akira, gamer, captain, jotun, monty, toxyn, all showed up to a at least one match and there are films to prove it. I'm pretty sure the same could be said of mark, sevendust, hadiez, and truth to a lesser degree.

I mean FOR FUCKS SAKE SP played a match in 2012 against tcox with this roster:

gamer, ramirez, akira, cave, genx, flatline, storm, rosaecrucis

Literally not 1 player on that entire list ever showed up for more than or even 50% of their teams matches, some far less. If your not showing up for 75%+ of your teams games your just a liability to them.

You're counting QR games, which don't matter. Would those teams have placed any different if their players showed up in earlier rounds instead of just the last few? Doubtful.

That said, yeah, people will choose worse players that are more likely to show up because thats one strategy to dealing with a salary cap. Others will choose better players that won't show up for a lot of shitty matches. Both strategies can work.

grim mentioned he was thinking about it, happened to walk by the comp on the way out the door when id left myth on and he had a little chat with gkg about it.

that was me posing as grim, not grim

Chohan wrote: Mark, Hmp, Muse, Akira, Stormrider, Truth, Generalx, Qwerty, Gamer, Crc, Cave, Captain, Nemesis, Sevendust, Rodekill, Jotun, Toxyn, Monty, Hadiez.

>Listing a bunch of people that never showed up

Chohan wrote:

thisforumsucks wrote:
Pretty sure I saw muse, storm, genx, qwerty, cave, akira, gamer, captain, jotun, monty, toxyn, all showed up to a at least one match and there are films to prove it. I'm pretty sure the same could be said of mark, sevendust, hadiez, and truth to a lesser degree.

I mean FOR FUCKS SAKE SP played a match in 2012 against tcox with this roster:

gamer, ramirez, akira, cave, genx, flatline, storm, rosaecrucis

Literally not 1 player on that entire list ever showed up for more than or even 50% of their teams matches, some far less. If your not showing up for 75%+ of your teams games your just a liability to them.

This is the last time I'm going to refute facts that are just blatantly incorrect, its like obama vs romney up in here. Please don't say literally unless you really mean it.

Players that make your claim incorrect:

rodekill (85% attendance rate)
monty (85% attendance rate)
toxyn (85% attendance rate)
gamer (100% attendance rate)
cave (100% attendance rate)
ramirez (80% attendance rate)
stormrider (80% attendance rate)
muse: (80% attendance rate)

Side note: hmp/mark had an attendance rate of 33%, missing their important matches that led to them getting eliminated. I think that says something about that little rivalry with TSS, considering 3 of their "inactive" players only missed 1 match.

dac wrote:grim mentioned he was thinking about it, happened to walk by the comp on the way out the door when id left myth on and he had a little chat with gkg about it.

How convenient a member of team GKG happened to witness this. Yeah right.

believe it or not, i dont really care. you can continue your flame war with gkg and asmo, it's not interesting enough to jump into anyways.

as for what was said, it's grim, so "thinking about it" does not equate to following through with it as we've seen with his numerous "not hosting mwc this year guys" routines.

ah so you are butthurt because asmo said you sucked cock to get onto a top team. well that makes more sense, carry on with your butthurt then.

not sure what trolling you are talking about, grim did talk about a salary cap in the lobby. i was there, i talked to him. nice try.

GiantKillerGen wrote:ah so you are butthurt because asmo said you sucked cock to get onto a top team. well that makes more sense, carry on with your butthurt then.

Hey if your best argument is that I'm only saying these things because you think I'm butthurt, thats cool. Rather than argue the points on a rational level you're going to attack me and claim I have an agenda for my statements.

cave (100% attendance rate)

dat camping trip

Dantski wrote:

cave (100% attendance rate)

dat camping trip

I forgot about the camping trip. However cave managed to get cruniac to play for him that weekend so his attendance is still 100%

punkUser wrote:

par73 wrote: Yet there have been over 15 team tournaments played in the nonequal format and only 2 with equal footing over the past 10 years.

What do you mean? I don't mean with no seeding or anything like that, I just mean each team should have a possibility to win it all if they win every game/match. Some teams will be expected to get annihilated in the first match, but let the tourney work that out rather than predictions.

Well then, each team always has the possibility to win it all if they win every game/match.
In fact, if you win every game/match I find it hard to believe a team would then have no possibility to win it all.

However, it does makes sense to have a losers bracket (along with the traditional top and winnowing brackets), for DEER, and other associated teams, to continue participating after their elimination.

thisforumsucks wrote:

GiantKillerGen wrote:ah so you are butthurt because asmo said you sucked cock to get onto a top team. well that makes more sense, carry on with your butthurt then.

Hey if your best argument is that I'm only saying these things because you think I'm butthurt, thats cool. Rather than argue the points on a rational level you're going to attack me and claim I have an agenda for my statements.

Zak if you didn't have an agenda for your statements, why would anyone bother inquiring about and/or discussing your statements. If someone doesn't have an agenda for their statements, they are "talking out of their ass" and should be ignored when considering 'arguing on a rational level'.


What could Paris possibly be referring to here?

Here's the points

• Salary Cap Format is Not MWC
  MWC is a traditional double elimination tournament
  Teams that Participate in MWC traditionally, pick their rosters
  The only roster restrictions are player validity and roster cap limits.
  The Majority of myth prefers MWC to stay traditional, rather than some sort of progressional change to a new format (which then in point would not be MWC, but Zak's hybrid tournament)

Here are a couple other points about your agenda and views (whatever)

thisforumsucks wrote:

GiantKillerGen wrote:You are just pulling stuff out of your ass at this point to fit your argument.

This statement is the biggest load of bullshit in this thread because I've dealt with nothing but people trying to pull stuff out of their ass to try and discredit the idea of a salary cap.

People are discrediting the idea of a salary cap for MWC, not for future tournaments. Draft tournaments were discussed for years before ever being used, Salary Cap tournaments have been discussed in a similar fashion, but have never yet happened.

thisforumsucks wrote:

GiantKillerGen wrote:and how does that NC cock taste zak? Or tirri cock?

Everyone agrees with someone on the forums, stop being retarded.

[A] I'm not the only one who notices the people who ride your cock, or I wouldn't have made that statement GKG. I didn't say shit to tirri to get him to add me to NP, and WHO KNOWS the mad reasonings shaister made for adding me to NC. [C} I certainly didn't jump into every thread where they had an opinion and immediately agree with or parrot it.

A) Ahh, cock rider vs cock been ridden. Guess who wins? Ask Enigman.
B) It's Psychological Kirk Theory.
C) Also, you totally did jump into pretty much every thread where they had an opinion and immediately agree with or parrot it. The only exception of a player you didn't as often was probably adrenaline, who made up the majority of NC's posts

thisforumsucks wrote:

GiantKillerGen wrote:The only time anyone can argue that I stacked a team was for mwc11 with the bullz, but NC had that coming. We tied them in the QR anyway so it couldn't have been that stacked. You certainly can't say that SP was stacked, we got fucking swept for god sakes, and then won the BB finals after that by the skin of our teeth.

You got swept by another team that was stacked, how does that prove you weren't stacked?

This is where I shake my head and stop looking through any of your posts. Now you're using Ad hominem, "Oh your team was stacked so what you're saying is invalid." Yet the point of MWC is to provide for some of the best matches of the summer, whether that involves two teams of relatively similar skill or two teams that have dominated every other in the team and finally have a competitive match, it can happen often. The best matches I have ever been in, or seen, was always between two highly competitive teams. Watching matches like DEER vs TFS, while noting the "fun" for some of the players, do not make me think that they were in fact participating in the best matches of the summer. MWC = best matches, the best matches are traditionally determined by the best players showcasing their abilities against each other.

P.s. talking in caps is never a good way to get your point across on the internet, it's only a good indicator of scrolling with the mouse wheel.

par73 wrote: Zak if you didn't have an agenda for your statements, why would anyone bother inquiring about and/or discussing your statements. If someone doesn't have an agenda for their statements, they are "talking out of their ass" and should be ignored when considering 'arguing on a rational level'.

My point was that I'm not making these statements to improve my chances of getting into a good MWC team, which is what was implied by a couple of people.

par73 wrote:Here's the points

• Salary Cap Format is Not MWC
  MWC is a traditional double elimination tournament
  Teams that Participate in MWC traditionally, pick their rosters
  The only roster restrictions are player validity and roster cap limits.
  The Majority of myth prefers MWC to stay traditional, rather than some sort of progressional change to a new format (which then in point would not be MWC, but Zak's hybrid tournament)

The current roster cap limit is also not MWC, you can make the same argument that players want to add however many of their friends they want and if they can't then they just won't play. It was only recently that we started enforcing a roster cap of less than 14-16 players (the purpose was to create more good teams, just like the salary cap).

Who makes the rules for what roster restrictions are acceptable? The only ones I remember from the original MWCs was a 14-16 player roster limit, and no dummying onto multiple teams. Even the way matches are scored has drastically changed.

How do we know what the majority of myth wants? From a few outspoken opinions like ours in a thread most people are too lazy to post in? Even our poll only has about a dozen votes. Also, the best players on myth are a minority, not a majority.

You're right it wouldn't be the same old MWC, but a hybrid. However you would still get the same quality of matches you had in MWC (through the mini-tournament), as well as a more competitive MWC.

Here are a couple other points about your agenda and views (whatever)

par73 wrote: A) Ahh, cock rider vs cock been ridden. Guess who wins? Ask Enigman.
B) It's Psychological Kirk Theory.
C) Also, you totally did jump into pretty much every thread where they had an opinion and immediately agree with or parrot it. The only exception of a player you didn't as often was probably adrenaline, who made up the majority of NC's posts

A. ?
B. ?
C. Once again a baseless statement that I'm expect to refute? How about you do the legwork this time since I'm tired of going back into old websites to do fact checking for other people's claims.

Here is my mwc 11 account http://mwc11.freeforums.org/member/hishnik/

and here is my mwc 12 account: http://mwc2012.proboards.com/index.cgi? ... uckyougrim

If you can prove I behaved in the same way Asmo has been doing I'll not only rescind my statements but I'll personally apologize to him. Otherwise go fuck yourself you liar

par73 wrote: This is where I shake my head and stop looking through any of your posts. Now you're using Ad hominem, "Oh your team was stacked so what you're saying is invalid."

Ad Hominem: an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.

Sounds a lot like most of the shit directed at me in this thread is ad hominem. Lets say I actually did say that his statement was invalid because his team was stacked (Thats not what I said). Is that an attack on GKG? Is that an attack on SP? No, its stating that even though he got swept, both teams had a roster much stronger than any other team in the tournament.

What GKG said was that his team was not stacked, because he got swept by another team. Not only did I not state anywhere that his statement was invalid, I merely asked a fucking question. He chose not to answer the question. Your interpretation of what I said is purposefully incorrect and you are attacking me for something I did not say, or attacking a straw man if you will.

As for my question, lets restate it. If two teams have 7 players ranked 4 balls, and one team sweeps the other, but is then eliminated by that same team later in the tournament , is one team less stacked than the other?

par73 wrote:Yet the point of MWC is to provide for some of the best matches of the summer, whether that involves two teams of relatively similar skill or two teams that have dominated every other in the team and finally have a competitive match, it can happen often. The best matches I have ever been in, or seen, was always between two highly competitive teams. Watching matches like DEER vs TFS, while noting the "fun" for some of the players, do not make me think that they were in fact participating in the best matches of the summer. MWC = best matches, the best matches are traditionally determined by the best players showcasing their abilities against each other.

Like I've said before, you still have the best matches of the summer in Zaknafein's Hybrid Super Star Power Tournament™. Why are these highly skilled teams spending 5-6 weeks raping newbies? Thats a complete waste of time for both parties.

Nobody is suggesting that you have any member of deer or TFS on the top 6-8 teams.

par73 wrote:P.s. talking in caps is never a good way to get your point across on the internet, it's only a good indicator of scrolling with the mouse wheel.

I apologize for my use of capital letters at the beginning of sentences, player names, abbreviations, and emphasis on individual words in a sentence. I have replaced some capital letters with lower case italics, hopefully you will read what I wrote instead of attacking claims I never made.

Ad hominem is just an insult masquerading as reason. "Par is wrong because he's pretentious" is ad hominem. Zak just made a syllogistic error.

wwo wrote:Ad hominem is just an insult masquerading as reason. "Par is wrong because he's pretentious" is ad hominem. Zak just made a syllogistic error.

Could you explain in more detail and quote the paragraph you're referring to?

Not saying you're wrong.

So your agenda is to change traditional MWC rules to something of your liking [so you can improve your chance of getting onto a "good" MWC team.]

MWC is not MWC unless its traditional MWC

the best teams don't always beat the underdogs
see icbm vs agents

par73 wrote:So your agenda is to change traditional MWC rules to something of your liking [so you can improve your chance of getting onto a "good" MWC team.]

thisforumsucks wrote:

par73 wrote: Zak if you didn't have an agenda for your statements, why would anyone bother inquiring about and/or discussing your statements. If someone doesn't have an agenda for their statements, they are "talking out of their ass" and should be ignored when considering 'arguing on a rational level'.

My point was that I'm not making these statements to improve my chances of getting into a good MWC team, which is what was implied by a couple of people.

Yeah, so you think I'm lying or you're illiterate. With nothing to support this claim other than saying I suck too much to get on a good team without using the salary cap. You have no idea my plans for MWC. I could be making a team with my brother, I might not play in the tournament, I might join a team full of people I enjoy being around, or I might do exactly what you think I want to do. If I don't know what my plans are, how the fuck could you?

par73 wrote:MWC is not MWC unless its traditional MWC

the best teams don't always beat the underdogs
see icbm vs agents

This is no longer traditional MWC. You think that a roster cap in 2001 would have been accepted by that community? I can imagine the various orders threatening to rage-quit MWC just like GKG threatens to.

Yeah great example, a match from 10 years ago, with a completely different division of skill amongst the teams.