Myrgard

drunken_deer wrote:Its a poor captain that blames his team mates, and Asmo yet again is blaming his team mates in this case Adren.

Trow belts are useless without something to buckle onto.

I never once blamed just Adrenaline for that loss. Every time I talked about it I was referring to everyone involved in the rush.

When you guys first met up with the opposing force, the melee support was in a position that they couldn't have helped their fetch, but our rush was not aware and didn't take advantage. After that people just randomly rushed and died when we had better map position and could have just backed out.

I'll continue to do what I do and hold my players accountable so my teams can improve and if they can't take criticism that's on them. I'm a competitive person and I play to win within the rules.

You can continue to do what you do as captain and get steam rolled and talk about how fun it was.

I never trusted dantski, he's basically an apathetic hitler.

However, he did give seeker three trow once on a deciding map and the results were of course hysterical.

but that makes no sense... apparently trowing is the easiest thing to do in the game. anyone can do it.

They are literally the easiest unit to use. If you aren't good with trow and you are playing against a better player literally all you have to do is shadow the other teams trow and you cancel out one of their best players.

The problem comes when a Seeker or another player like him tries to play hero when all they should be doing is shadowing.

Trow are high importance units, which is generally why they are given to experience players. I agree with Asmo though in that they are not particularly high skill/micro units in terms of difficulty (they are moderately lag-sensitive though). Most competent players can micro a small number of units near-optimally. The ability to handle many units and types efficiently is what separates the really skilled folks from the rest.

Not that I'm disagreeing with giving Trow to experienced players at all... a mistake (usually in judgement) with them can screw the entire team. I'm just noting that that's the fundamental reason they are given to experienced folks, not because some special micro skill is required.

Having a player, especially an inferior player, just shadow an aggressive, skilled trower around the map is a big error imo. Especially if it isn't a particularly linear map but certainly even on something like barb lmoth you're asking for trouble.

Also, there are plenty of elite, smart players who I would never trust 3 trow with for numerous reasons beyond them being obviously more useful elsewhere. ex of a player: shai

With adren and dantski trowing you're pretty much getting the same thing, dantski likely being a bit more aggressive. If adren plays his game and doesn't act like zer post doing a line of coke then he certainly should do fine.

Just shadow and cancel out one of their best players? jesus christ you are retarded lol... and what does that person do when I walk straight into them for a 3v3 trow battle? answer: dies, giving your team a significant disadvantage. There is far more to effective trowing than shadowing and dodging... you need to be able to predict artillery shots, when to block, when not to block, etc etc. And shaking a shadow is fucking easy... one mistake in shadowing and boom... I'll be between your trow and artillery, with free reign to kick them before your trow can help. There is soooo much more to it than unit control.

Also, I don't think many people outside of Np are aware of this, maybe they are: grim was dynamite with 2 trow. It's primarily why I recruited him in 2010, unfortunately he thought molesting children was more important.

adrenaline wrote:Just shadow and cancel out one of their best players? jesus christ you are retarded lol... and what does that person do when I walk straight into them for a 3v3 trow battle? answer: dies, giving your team a significant disadvantage. There is far more to effective trowing than shadowing and dodging... you need to be able to predict artillery shots, when to block, when not to block, etc etc. And shaking a shadow is fucking easy... one mistake in shadowing and boom... I'll be between your trow and artillery, with free reign to kick them before your trow can help. There is soooo much more to it than unit control.

when you walk into a 3v3 trow battle? backup where they have an advantage...

I'm aware there is far more effective trowing than just shadowing, but I was giving an example of a completely inferior player to nail home the point that trowing isn't difficult.

My view on trowing is pretty much the exact words that PunkUser said. I would rather have my best players on the more skilled micro intensive unit sets if I have a 'lesser' player on the team that I can trust with the trow to not completely butcher the job. There is no way I'm going to waste Tirri, Arzenic, Shaister and Myrk on trow duty if it isn't absolutely needed.

There is a few exceptions for me to my idea above, but generally this is how I approach it.

Knowing when and where to backup with trow is a skill, as well as knowing that the very act of backing up usually means you're being reactive and giving up ground.

I don't remember Seeker ever playing hero with trow, just court jester...

Cutard wrote: If adren plays his game and doesn't act like zer post doing a line of coke then he certainly should do fine.

Aha! This made me laugh.

Line of dope, it usually was.

Asmodian wrote:
My view on trowing is pretty much the exact words that PunkUser said. I would rather have my best players on the more skilled micro intensive unit sets if I have a 'lesser' player on the team that I can trust with the trow to not completely butcher the job. There is no way I'm going to waste Tirri, Arzenic, Shaister and Myrk on trow duty if it isn't absolutely needed.

There is a few exceptions for me to my idea above, but generally this is how I approach it.

Asmo ~trow duty is a waste

Asmo ~Hence I am the lesser player on the team I can trust with trow to not completely butcher the job worse than I did last game~

Cutard wrote:Knowing when and where to backup with trow is a skill, as well as knowing that the very act of backing up usually means you're being reactive and giving up ground.

Totally agreed - this explains what I was trying to get a lot more succinctly. Trow skills are more "judgement" skills than micro skills in most cases, but where mistakes can be fatal to the entire team.

I'll admit I vastly over exaggerated what it takes to be an effective trower. I guess where I was trying to get at is that it isn't a job that requires your best player. I feel like every player on my team is capable of trowing at an efficient level, so I rather put my better players on the more micro intensive unit sets.

yet myself, Tirri, East Wind, Sam, Ghengis (arguably the best micro players in the game) almost always trow... weird huh?

two people were trying to play Thermopylae pass!

Not really. They are a very fun units to handle and people have egos.

Personally if I had another solid option as a trower I would use Tirri,Ew and Sam on a power unit set. The only exceptions for me on putting a top micro player on trow duty is GK(when he is semi active) and GKG because they have proven that they can constantly win their trow battle against other top teams.

You been on ONE decent team EVER, and contrary to what you seem to think, have no other valid tournament credentials. I've been with a dynasty team since 2006 and have seen every permutation of unit dispersal and talent spread imaginable... I have a much firmer grasp on this shit than you can ever hope for. In fact, I think it is probably below me to argue with someone like you. So here's the end of the debate: I am right, you are wrong, game over.

Neither is "right" or "wrong", just Asmo is making the point that developing trow skills is generally easier than being really good handling larger/varied unit sets. I should think that pretty much goes without saying.

The fact that folks you consider to be "top micro players" typically get trow does not contradict that statement, for the reasons that I described in my last post. Neither does it say by itself that players who do trow duty are any less (or more) "skilled" than anyone else - I don't think Asmo was saying that and I certainly wasn't.

Top players obviously can both have good judgement for trow duty and good multi-unit micro ability. In fact I'd consider those both pre-requisites to be considered top tier players to start with. The point is just that the former is typically easier to learn than the latter. This usually is demonstrated pretty clearly in 1v1... many good 2-team players who are used to fairly small unit sets can't effectively handle bigger 1v1 maps. Nothing wrong with that, just different skills.

PS: The fact that many of the typical trow players would throw minor hissy-fits if they don't get trow probably contributes too /troll

bad trowing loses games... it's a high-risk unit set, which is why top tier players are normally given the task. There are so many intrinsic skills that top tier players possess that are not simply "easy to learn", but honed over years of playing at a high level. You lackwits don't seem to understand this. Yes, it is easy to learn to run around and dodge shit with 2-3 units... I will grant you that... but that is the most superficial part of trowing.

To give you SOME credit, there ARE maps that it does not matter who trows... i.e. Trow NUT. While the role is still important, it is not critical like on Barb Valley or Caer (trow), etc... and the loss of that trow is not necessarily game-ending. If you can't understand the points I have made, then you have no business arguing with me about this matter... I simply know better than you because I've been there, done that x10000.

adrenaline wrote:yet myself, Tirri, East Wind, Sam, Ghengis (arguably the best micro players in the game) almost always trow... weird huh?

honestly we should take a look through old sites and films to find all tournament-official trow terries matches

we could look at other trow maps too, but trow terries is the classic and the intended standard bungie set for the game.

ew/sam are ww2. ---> so you really need to update that list and add crun, respectively. maybe he will have to teach you a lesson this weekend

i would take trow more but i also know how to defend from trow and do damage to trow, without one.
thus me taking trow is often not seen but I have had my fair share of victories against all of those players with trow, as they have with me.



maybe we should do a trow tournament
10-game qrs (two sets of 5, 5-15 minute break between 5 games unless voided by both players.)


BC, 3 minutes, If I had a Trow
UT: 5 Trow Min/Max
Restrictions: Cannot Use Non-Trow Units
that would be cool and hasn't been done for at least 10 years if ever

too bad zer et al aren't around anymore, or anywhere near primetimes

I've outtrowed Crun literally every time I've faced him, so I'm not too worried about that. He's pretty decent with them though, I'll give him that. Zer was never the force with trow you think he was

And both EW and Sam haven't been ww2ers since like 2003/4... I'd never consider them to be that anymore.

Asmodian wrote:

drunken_deer wrote:Its a poor captain that blames his team mates, and Asmo yet again is blaming his team mates in this case Adren.

Trow belts are useless without something to buckle onto.

I never once blamed just Adrenaline for that loss. Every time I talked about it I was referring to everyone involved in the rush.

When you guys first met up with the opposing force, the melee support was in a position that they couldn't have helped their fetch, but our rush was not aware and didn't take advantage. After that people just randomly rushed and died when we had better map position and could have just backed out.

I'll continue to do what I do and hold my players accountable so my teams can improve and if they can't take criticism that's on them. I'm a competitive person and I play to win within the rules.

You can continue to do what you do as captain and get steam rolled and talk about how fun it was.

your full of shit dude, otherwise you wouldn't have posted about switching arsenal for adrenaline in the first place, over a single game..

adrenaline wrote:I've outtrowed Crun literally every time I've faced him, so I'm not too worried about that. He's pretty decent with them though, I'll give him that. Zer was never the force with trow you think he was

And both EW and Sam haven't been ww2ers since like 2003/4... I'd never consider them to be that anymore.

Uhh when it mattered, Zer won some big games with his play.
I think you just doubt on him because he was always pitteded against you.

Don't forget 07 08 baby. you was 0-2

i recall armageddon vs NC on trow terries, to be honest

Meh, I'd have to watch the films again... that part of my life is a complete blur lol. also, 07/08 we won the final match convincingly, then lost in SD So I wouldn't use that as an example of either team dominating

well when armageddon won i think you beat us by like one point pre-SD?
were you TopBracketChamp both years?

no we came through the bottom bracket to the finals, hence going into SD both times.

aha!

did Armageddon win both SD games or did you guys win one first?
I think it was 3 SD games in 08? we skipped game 7 in 07, but regulation was much closer in score in 08

christ i don't remember the details! i smoked more in a day than most potheads smoke in a week back then lol

drunken_deer wrote: your full of shit dude, otherwise you wouldn't have posted about switching arsenal for adrenaline in the first place, over a single game..

You have no idea what you are talking about. First it was Arzenic not Arsenal, 2nd it had nothing to do with a game at all. When I made those statements it was before Adrenaline had ever played on my team. That Screen shot is like 2-3 weeks old.

adrenaline wrote:You been on ONE decent team EVER, and contrary to what you seem to think, have no other valid tournament credentials. I've been with a dynasty team since 2006 and have seen every permutation of unit dispersal and talent spread imaginable... I have a much firmer grasp on this shit than you can ever hope for. In fact, I think it is probably below me to argue with someone like you. So here's the end of the debate: I am right, you are wrong, game over.

Hate to burst your bubble, but it is much harder to take 2nd or 3rd rate players and finish with a respectable placing in MWC than to win a MWC on a contender. You have been on a contender every MWC since at least 2006 and have only won the tournament 2 times. I have played on 1 contender ever and guess what? I won

Clearly you have a much firmer grasp than me by what you showed last tournament with your captaining which was one of the saddest and most horrible attempts at strategy and captaining I have seen from a "top" player.

You should be thankful that Myth 2 is a dying game and that there will never be a decent size population again most likely. It allows a player like you that has horrible in-game awareness to be relevant.

The only trower I have ever been impressed with was Ghengis back in his prime during mwc 2011. He is still decent as well when he cares i'm sure.

Other notable trowers might be Sam, EW, and Kirk when he was still good. Adrenaline and Zer are definitely not among them.

Asmo and punk raised some good points, I see what they are saying and I agree. Other points to add on are: a trower's success is often heavily influenced by the support they get from teammates, and different maps are trowed very differently as well.

Adrenaline has one of the lowest intelligence-to-clicking ability ratios of any player in this game. To see him try to throw his self-proclaimed game intellect around is quite hilarious.

Yes adren, asmo does know better than you. And if you don't believe that, well then I certainly know better than you. I can play that same card, y'see? And obviously I play that card much much much better than you.

you are pathetic, shut up and sit down.

the best players are trusted with the big units, they get better with the big units, it's a self-reinforcing cycle

most of the time, you don't see much variance in skill between opposite trowers, because they have to play a cautious game

pit the same players against each other on a flank with standard unit sets, and you might get consistent one-sided results with a game-changing impact

a trower's success is often heavily influenced by the support they get from teammates, and different maps are trowed very differently as well.

+1

suppose your best trower is also your best multi-tasker, in which situations is he worth more to you in a non-trowing role?

hilarious gkg... it's funny the way you talk about me now that we dislike each other vs how you talked about me when we were actually getting along (the beginning of the tourney that you drafted me in... a small window in time, granted). clearly you are biased and have an interest in making me look bad... whereas during that small window in time you were constantly blowing smoke up my ass. i'll brush that shit off though... completely meaningless. anybody who has played with or against me for a long time knows what i am capable of and has respect for my game. as far as trowing goes... i've been pitted against the best trowers in the game for years and have had a very high rate of success, so ya... I can let my results speak for themselves.

p.s. how the fuck does someone get triple land wighted? is this the intelligence to clicking ratio you speak of? talk all the shit you want, but i'm still the only person to have beaten you in a first to 5 1v1 series (ching ching), and next to yourself have been the most dominating 1v1 player in the last several years. not something likely achievable by someone with the "lowest intelligence-to-clicking ability ratios of any player in this game". suck a dick.

ooo this gets juicy.

i was blowing smoke up your ass during the draft tournament? i'm not even sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. i remember yelling at you a lot because you were out of position constantly, as i have mentioned previously, and other's such as punkuser and other's on the team remember vividly. me drafting you at something like the 5th pick had little to do what I thought of you. I assure you I would have picked any of the other players picked 1-4 instead, had I had the opportunity. In hindsight there actually may have been a better pick for me since you proved yourself to be quite a liability throughout the tournament.

I got triple land wighted while watching tv in a meaningless newbie rabble game. Very amusing I agree, but you are really starting to reek of desperation here now.

uh, i've been beaten by many people in a 1v1 series, so that is a blatant lie. In most recent memory by PK and EW. sooooo delusional and soooo clinging hard to my nuts with that one. furthermore, you have only beaten me once in a 1v1 series ever, and that was when i was playing on 4 hours of sleep and you scrapped by the skin of your teeth while abusing a start advantage in the last game. it took you 6 months afterward to have the balls to rematch it. what does that say about you?

Furthermore, if anyone wants an example of how badly I out-class you when I really want to, they need only look at any of the several youtube videos I have posted of some 1v1s of ours, in which I made you rage-quit in the end. If you or anyone else needs to refresh your memory, here are some links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12dPXRFnq2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV7yOGdQh1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYsWo-VKSlE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llg_yFfCOi8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXHyvj4-XXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdME1fcIVEQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ0Y-QXYXU4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZYPgk13JFk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PutbMzBN-RI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY11nt-qsqk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW5rBcNURac

you have never been a dominant 1v1 player, you could flirt with the best as several others could, but never were in the same tier as the best. Case in point: you have never won a 1v1 tournament in your entire myth career. i am not even sure if you have ever placed into even the finals of a 1v1 tournament.

also trying to use 1v1 ability as evidence of game intelligence just further proves my point really. so thank you for that, i couldn't have ended this post on a better note myself.

First off, i said "first to five" 1v1 match... and who the fuck plays a $100 match on 4 hours of sleep... keep trying to justify it. And i didnt abuse starts lol wtf u talking about.

I dont give a fuck about 1v1 tournaments because half of them were many years ago, and the other half never finished. I have beaten literally everyone 1v1 many many times, with the exception of tirri, who i am even with in results. Also funny u say this considering i blanked people in your tourney that you seemingly struggled against. And good job a) recording and b) posting some of the worst games i've ever played... really doesn't mean a thing. Many of those i am sure were casual games that i didnt give a fuck about and chances are i was blind drunk in most of them. It is hilarious how seriously u take this game lol.

Love how people continue to bag on my 2 team game, while i continue to dominate game after game, match after match, tourney after tourney. Priceless, really.

who plays a money match on 4 hours of sleep? the guy who struggled for 2 weeks for anyone to challenge him and still had to pull teeth to get the only 2 players who ended up playing me to step up. you abused the NW start on grave versus the SW start. a well known and significant start advantage. what was most amusing about that is in another 1v1 match we had, you would complain about me abusing it on you when the advantage was reversed.

you haven't beaten me in 1v1 many many times, just once as I mentioned already. but in any case, everyone has mostly beaten everyone many times, doesn't mean shit as you just cling to overly vague statements. I agree though, tirri does out-class you in 1v1 as well.

Also funny as I blanked many more people in my 1v1 tourney that you struggled against. And more importantly, I blanked you. Additionally, the "people" you are referring to is in actuality only 1 person - Gekko. He played much better against me than he played against you, I agree, as I played him earlier in the day I believe, and on his host.

Yes, those recorded games must have been so super-casual and meaningless, that is why you made excuses every game, dropped one game, rage quit in the last game, and BEGGED me later multiple times to not ever post those videos which I told you I was recording from the beginning and going to upload, win or lose. Sorry, did you mention something about someone taking the game too seriously?

As far as your domination, did you ever stop to realize that you are the only one saying that? Hrmm... I guess that isn't unexpected, you never were one to let your play, or others do your talking for you. All bark, no bite.

plenty of bite, as i've proven in every 2t tourney i've ever played in. this is the same fucking argument we've had 18,000 times in the last few years. instead of continuing, i'll refer you to every other tourney forum 2009-present.

Giant Killer General wrote:tirri does out-class you in 1v1 as well.

I doubt he'd agree. My 1v1s with tirri have probably been the most evenly matched duels i've ever had the pleasure of playing. I have a lot of respect for him.

browning wrote:the best players are trusted with the big units, they get better with the big units, it's a self-reinforcing cycle

most of the time, you don't see much variance in skill between opposite trowers, because they have to play a cautious game

pit the same players against each other on a flank with standard unit sets, and you might get consistent one-sided results with a game-changing impact

a trower's success is often heavily influenced by the support they get from teammates, and different maps are trowed very differently as well.

+1

suppose your best trower is also your best multi-tasker, in which situations is he worth more to you in a non-trowing role?

about sometime someone from 2006 and 2007 made a memorable, rational thought about trowing.

thanks browning, thanks for throwing the match this weekend like adren buddy

p.s. tirri > gkg

adrenaline wrote:I've outtrowed Crun literally every time I've faced him, so I'm not too worried about that. He's pretty decent with them though, I'll give him that. Zer was never the force with trow you think he was

And both EW and Sam haven't been ww2ers since like 2003/4... I'd never consider them to be that anymore.

yea zer was

i foresee peoples theories becoming more consistently correct, sigh.

sorry but before u were around zer had already made it to the finals (and lost (2003, 2006), twice (unless you count mwc05, coz tcox05 wuz up)).
you had to lose another two times in the finals (to him, and his trowing / unit handling prowess, and his clutch mentality) before you could earn a ring.
u can talk shit about zer having disagreements with push timing with his teammates (years later in 09 finals), but honestly if people were aware of zer's aggressiveness they would have capitalized. some people should have been more aware of this than others (some of his teammtes 09), but it is what it is.
Zer is a legend, you cannot prove otherwise. he won finals before you, he made it to finals in 03, plz.
hall of famer

2006

Sam? SL didn't stand a chance
Ew? Bia3, good games, closer than SL.
Oh yeah, one of the few to ever beat BME
"Ancrik" never had a chance
well, neither did elephriends


me zer cave karma clank, that was the 5 'power' hitters. our best games was all of us, we 'peaked' together. I had less than 2 yrs experience with understanding the game (LOL)
ram and storm were key parts of that tcox team along with qwerty, they needed time. if they didn't why call us a team...
we were basically a legitimate team (managing player time / games as a team, without bias to more or less play time for a player) and still won 2006 TBC.
without two of stereotypical-tcox best players (arz and grim [who we played in the finals]).
great times; i think you placed 6th, were nicknamed 'dumbo' on an elephant themed NC team, at the time.

sure, there are a small group of players that put Zer on a pedestal because they won an mwc with him and they want recognition from others about their teams with him. Paris and Liger are among this group of people. But the proof that they are wrong is in how they make excuses for Zer. Just look at what Paris said in regards to Zer's poor trowing in the mwc09 finals: "his teammates should have capitalized on his aggressiveness." If any sane person watches that film, they know that the fetch that are running as fast as they can to support his trow are much further behind, and obviously Zer's trow move much faster than him. That was all Zer. Grim, myrk, and basically everyone else on his team were 100% correct to blame his trowing. It is amazing how people can warp blatant reality when they want to believe something so badly.

If people want to argue that Zer had 1-2 good years earlier than 2009, that's fine. I don't know enough about his mwc wins to disagree with that. But 1-2 good years before floundering does not make someone among the best. Zer was always a standard 4 baller as far as I am concerned.

i chose the name 6th place was a result of an early exit because we were forced to play Np early... 4th or 5th would have been a more likely finish otherwise.

never said zer wasn't good... he was a very good player. just don't personally think he was a dominating trower!

I wonder if that epic post I made about Zer's trowing is still around, it'd be on either mwc09 or mwc10 site.
Zer is one of the dumbest players I've ever had the misfortune to play with.

Zer was a good player, but someone I would never personally choose to team with. He played overly aggressive and made stupid moves in-order to try and dominate the game. In other words he was a liability, a hit or miss player. When I think great I think consistent.

::Sit back in chair grabs popcorn::

Out of those 5 players Paris named the only one I would consider great is Cave.

Giant Killer General wrote:sure, there are a small group of players that put Zer on a pedestal because they won an mwc with him and they want recognition from others about their teams with him. Paris and Liger are among this group of people. But the proof that they are wrong is in how they make excuses for Zer. Just look at what Paris said in regards to Zer's poor trowing in the mwc09 finals: "his teammates should have capitalized on his aggressiveness." If any sane person watches that film, they know that the fetch that are running as fast as they can to support his trow are much further behind, and obviously Zer's trow move much faster than him. That was all Zer. Grim, myrk, and basically everyone else on his team were 100% correct to blame his trowing. It is amazing how people can warp blatant reality when they want to believe something so badly.

If people want to argue that Zer had 1-2 good years earlier than 2009, that's fine. I don't know enough about his mwc wins to disagree with that. But 1-2 good years before floundering does not make someone among the best. Zer was always a standard 4 baller as far as I am concerned.

by the time it was 2009 zer's brain was different than it was in 08, 07, 06, 05.

i don't have to 'warp balatant reality', grim and myrk should have expected zer to do something crazy with 3 trow in 2009 (especially with his drug use being out of control by then). zer could have timed it right sure, but i've seen him pull off moves like that and I feel they could have anticipated things better. he was the ultimate risk vs reward taker. when you're on zer's team, he's always rolling the dice.

Asmodian wrote:Zer was a good player, but someone I would never personally choose to team with. He played overly aggressive and made stupid moves in-order to try and dominate the game. In other words he was a liability, a hit or miss player. When I think great I think consistent.

::Sit back in chair grabs popcorn::

Out of those 5 players Paris named the only one I would consider great is Cave.

whatever, i don't really care 'who one considers great', those are the 5 who held down that tcox 06 squad with their play. it was obvious to me at the time and storm still didn't want to start those 5 (clank and karma didn't play in the finals until game 3)
that squad beat BIA, BME. etc. at the time of myth's last great peak. did you ever beat a BIA squad Asmo? did you ever beat BME? heheheh

you not considering those "Great 5" great, besides Cave eh?
::takes your popcorn, dumps it out on your head::
::heavy butter, lick lick::
Being "great" suddenly has to do with being one who didn't publically insult you over the past 10 years and chose to do it in private instead. Or is that just a correlation I'm noticing?

i'll certainly agree that Clank is not great.

you can have a bias about 'how great' clank was, i don't really give a fuck because none of you got along back in 06 07 anyway. clank karma and I would stay up, put rabble players from gru on our team and beat BIA3 featuring their full roster + THOR on that week's scheduled maps and on classics.
to be quite frank, clank was a very important part of getting to the finals in 06. in the finals he was played considerably less and he should have had more playing time for how well he was playing that summer.

he was no orlandotheaxe LOL

ota was amazingly clutch in the finals i was surprised at how well he played at the time. steve kerr of tcox 07