paris: regarding the map picking process

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 07 May 2013, 17:25

can I suggest you select some kind of committee to consult during the map picking process? one of the main complaints I've seen from other players regarding tournaments you've run is usually regarding map picks. while I understand that it is great to explore new maps and all that jazz... the best games of any given match are usually played out on a traditional MWC map... tried, tested, and true. some of the TWS matches really suffered from the map picks, as GKG can attest to. some maps just allow very little variation in unit trade and strategy... some are just a camp fest. I don't need to list maps here, but I don't think anyone would have a problem playing the same map more than once (in separate matches, of course) if the game type is different.

I think a good formula to follow for the DE rounds would be:

1 stock bungie map (trow, desert, creep, DE, DoW)
3 MWC standards (i.e. caer, hver, barb valley, keep, shuffle, poison holiday, grilling, etc)
1 new/obscure map

I could be wrong, but I think this would make for much more exciting matches, both for the players and spectators.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 07 May 2013, 17:37

I think this is especially true the further on in the tournament you go. Personally I don't mind more variation (maybe 2 new maps/modes per round or something) in the QR, but by the finals (especially of MWC) it's best not to do risky picks.

That said, river town was a cool map and I would like to see that used again in MWC

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 May 2013, 17:39

My only complaint in the maps from last TWS draft tourney was week 3's maps. There was literally no variance to be had in trades or even just strategy on any of the maps. It was just a straight BC fight for 5 games in a row. There was a couple buggy maps later on for sure. Test them a bit to work out those bugs, but otherwise I enjoyed the maps and trades on almost all of the new obscure maps that I can remember. I enjoy those because they really get me thinking of new strategies I haven't really thought of before.

For the most part, I would just say keep doing what you are doing, I understand it is hard to please everyone. Limp made a list of maps, you should certainly take some picks from there. I think picking maps definitely needs more than one person to pick them though. Maybe put out a list and see if the captains veto anything? I think I am pretty reasonable in my requests. I don't mind like 1 BC type maps/games per match, but I definitely want the vast majority to be strategy-based, otherwise it is just boring. That is my only real concern with map/game picks. Oh, and try to avoid the campfest type map/games. If it is a campy map, pick an appropriate gametype to counter that.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 07 May 2013, 17:42

I agree with adren

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 07 May 2013, 17:57

Lets use a couple of maps from Grim's 2 team Map Pack in the QR!

http://thegjol.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=486

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 May 2013, 18:13

they've already been picked

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 07 May 2013, 18:20

can you list them so we can voice our opinions sooner rather than later?

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 May 2013, 20:43

You can voice your opinions after they're uploaded, opinions won't change those. they are going to be uploaded weekly.

preseason maps are up for discussion so fire away about those. preseason will be randomly selected schedules and basically scrimmages leading up to the QRs. playing is optional.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 07 May 2013, 20:51

Really? You aren't gonna give us any say in the map selection? C'mon man... post the list and give us something to discuss. The map selection basically makes or breaks a tournament.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 May 2013, 21:12

oh do please announce the maps ahead of time...all at once. no reason to hide them from us.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 07 May 2013, 21:18

yeah you should post all the maps before the tournament even starts, it protects the the integrity of the tournament so we know the TO isn't choosing certain picks from one week to another that favors a certain teams players strengths.

Maps can be changed later on if needed.

headhunter · Post by **headhunter** » 07 May 2013, 21:20

No need to hide this information.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 May 2013, 21:22

adrenaline wrote:Really? You aren't gonna give us any say in the map selection? C'mon man... post the list and give us something to discuss. The map selection basically makes or breaks a tournament.

When has mwc map selection ever been up for discussion?
I tried posting the maps in bulk but it says the message contains too many urls and the maximum number of urls allowed is 20, i didn't have time to go through this earlier. 'hiding information' lahl will you guys give the bitching and moaning a rest for a day. tell you what, how about at least week because i'll be done with finals in exactly a week.

QR1
1. Caer Cadarn (light) Territories 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/download/caer-cadarn
2. Dark Canyon CTF 14 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... eat-divide
3. Lichen Unto Death (dark) FR 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... unto-death
4. A Grave Reason to Swim (2x light) Captures 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... on-to-swim
5. Mockingbird - Cardinal Sins (dark) KOTH 10 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... ockingbird

QR2
1. A Poison Holiday (light) FR 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... wc-edition
2. Vertigo T.E. (FG) Territories 10 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... ition-2013
3. Rank and Defiled (myrks) Captures 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... nd-defiled
4. Spinach Between Your Teeth (light) CTF 14 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... ished-maps
5. Sieve - Like Driving on the Railroad (dark) LMOTH 10 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... gh-a-sieve

QR3
1. Mjilaphobia CTF 14 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/download/mjila
2. Green Acres T.E. (trow) FR 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... s-2013-t-e
3. Barbarian Valley T.E. (light) Territories 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... ey-tourney
4. Acts of Cruelty Captures 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/download/acts-of-piety
5. Stalk on the Borderlands (dark) Stampede! 14 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... orderlands

DE1
1. Hvergelmir (dark) LMOTH 10 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/download/hvergelmir
2. Dun Caric Teams (light) Territories 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... aric-teams
3. The Barrens (beer and mud) NUT Captures 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/download/the-barrens
4. Chalk Hills (quip) CTF 16 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... ills-redux
5. Tamaerlin (dark) FR 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/download/tamaerlin

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 May 2013, 21:22

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 May 2013, 21:23

Finals
1. Barbarian Valley (trow) FR 14 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... ey-tourney
2. To Kill A Mockingbird Territories 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... ockingbird
3. Dark Canyon Captures 14 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... eat-divide
4. Hvergelmir (shadow) CTF 16 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/download/hvergelmir
5. Tallow Abbey T.E. (light) Assassin 14 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... w-2013-t-e
6. Quixotism (trow) FR 14 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... m-t-e-v1-3
7. Keep (TFL) LMOTH 12 mins
http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/downlo ... -the-river

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 May 2013, 21:35

great. ill check em out later, looks good at first glance.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 07 May 2013, 21:44

let me be the first to complain.

Lichen Unto Death (dark) FR 12 mins

Acts of Cruelty Captures 12 mins

Hvergelmir (dark) LMOTH 10 mins

Chalk Hills (quip) CTF 16 mins

To Kill a Mockingbird CTF 16 mins (huge fort on one side) Really?

Shuffle Off This Mortal Coil (light) Captures 14 mins

If I Had a Trow KOTH 10 mins

Missing too many MWC staples. They are staples for a reason, because they are great maps.
Also 4 trow maps for the finals?

No lichen light, No bee ninja, No calvary, no trow tert, no dessert, no hyver light...I know there is more missing but that's all I got time for the time being.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 07 May 2013, 22:03

Trow koth? is that supposed to be NUT?
Hver dark lmoth? Really? Lmoth?
Hasn't Shattered Earth proven to suck?

No Acts of Piety?
Creep on the Borderlands?
Grilling Grounds?
Lichen light, as Asmo mentioned?
Desert?

and that's just at a glance.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 07 May 2013, 22:39

well i'm glad i at least passed gkg's brief inspection,

while i just can't seem to hold it together for adren and asmodian's standards and taste.

Chohan · Post by **Chohan** » 07 May 2013, 22:52

Paris I support any map choices you make and I trust they are in the best interest of everyone.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » 07 May 2013, 23:02

IF ONLY GRIM HAD IMPLEMENTED MAP SELECTION BY COMMITTEE DURING ONE OF HIS EIGHT YEARS OF TO'ING

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 08 May 2013, 00:00

whether map picks by committee has or has not been implemented before is irrelevant... it is something that could only help produce a better tournament experience for all parties involved.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 08 May 2013, 00:02

well i apologize but these maps were already picked by somebody else, not me, who spent a decent amount of effort on it.
i really don't see whats wrong with any of these picks.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 08 May 2013, 02:12

these map picks reek of limp's handiwork

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 09 May 2013, 18:17

Please don't see this as an attack paris, we just want to make MWC a more enjoyable experience!

par73 wrote:
adrenaline wrote:Really? You aren't gonna give us any say in the map selection? C'mon man... post the list and give us something to discuss. The map selection basically makes or breaks a tournament.
When has mwc map selection ever been up for discussion?
lahl will you guys give the bitching and moaning a rest for a day.

Most people are for introducing new maps and choosing unusual gametypes for existing maps, as long as it makes the game more fun, not less. If we aren't taking the risk of introducing King of the Map, why are we doing radical maps/gametypes and combos that have been untested?

par73 wrote:well i'm glad i at least passed gkg's brief inspection,

while i just can't seem to hold it together for adren and asmodian's standards and taste.

Thats not it at all paris. First of all, limp chose the maps so nobody is attacking you! Second of all, most of the picks are good.

par73 wrote:well i apologize but these maps were already picked by somebody else, not me, who spent a decent amount of effort on it.
i really don't see whats wrong with any of these picks.

We just have issues with a few of them because we think they will either be a snoozefest or could be replaced with a better map that was inexplicably left out (when some of the maps listed are there twice).

So to reiterate, we want to have more input on map picks without being seen as complaining. Here are MY suggestions, that I think most would agree with:

Replace some of the maps that were listed more than once, with maps that are popular but are absent now, such as creep, grilling grounds, lichen light, desert between your ears, hvergelmir light, calm before the storm, frozen cloudspine, clash/cracks, smells, shuffle dark, drowned empire, zodiac, and the four leaved fen.

I'm not saying add all of these, but there are some maps that stand out because they're listed so often. Surely we could replace some of them with the classics I just listed?

Some maps listed more than once are Mockingbird (listed 3 times), Grave Reason (light listed twice), Keep, divide/dark canyon (listed 3 times), barbarian valley (listed 3 times), tallow abbey, poison holiday, and tamaerlin (dark mesh twice!).

Then there are some maps/gametypes I think most people would vote to get rid of altogether, such as:

lichen dark (FR) : The only gametype I've seen that was semi-fun on lichen dark was koth. Has FR been tested on this map? Has anyone besides limp enjoyed it?

hvergelmir dark (lmoth): This map does not seem like it would be fun to play LMOTH. The mid doesn't have much room to fight, and the hills making pushing somebody off mid very hard. Again, has this been tested much? Does anyone have films of it?

shattered earth captures: a map that many people have complained about, with a unit trade that looks like it would allow to trow run around raping flanks then getting healed before doing it all over again. Also, lots of balls would get stuck in the cracks, with no units being able to get them out either.

Doing the math, I suggested 15 maps be added, and about 12 removed. I think as a community we should try to reach a compromise somewhere, right?

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 09 May 2013, 18:26

Shattered Earth is just a terrible map.
Hver dark LMOTH really needs to go... that game will just suck.
Lichen dark FR is terrible... played it the other day and yes... it is just awful.

SamTheButcher · Post by **SamTheButcher** » 09 May 2013, 22:11

I agree with Zac and Adren on this. Adren is right on about the maps he mentioned.

I would like to see Grilling Grounds (light) Lmoth. I think Lmoth plays the best on that map over other game types. The battle is usually 1 long battle line with both teams fighting straight up head to head. I like that and I think it makes for the best and most fun fighting. CTF is ok but it gives reason for hidden flanks to flag steal which breaks up that great mid fight you have with Lmoth.

Its pretty much the same with Barbarian Valley Lmoth. Where you have the one long scrimmage line.

The Barrens Lmoth or Koth works similar to those but the battle line isnt quite as static.

Creep and Stalk and others like them played with Terries/FR are IMO good because with those maps and game types you get a lot of squad on squad fighting. With Flanks and Pincher maneuvers etc. Something almost totally opposite of the type of fights you have on Grilling or Barbarian Lmoth.

limp · Post by **limp** » 09 May 2013, 23:21

You guys are complaining about like 3-5 out of like 50 maps, stuff a sock in it.

Maps are final.

Pogue · Post by **Pogue** » 09 May 2013, 23:24

adrenaline wrote:Shattered Earth is just a terrible map.
Hver dark LMOTH really needs to go... that game will just suck.
Lichen dark FR is terrible... played it the other day and yes... it is just awful.

Those maps suck sure, but most of the picks are pretty good, however I demand lichen light, creep, and grilling grounds or Satan's Balls will find themselves somewhere else hot and moist to go this summer.

cremisi · Post by **cremisi** » 09 May 2013, 23:30

the four leaved fen (venice 2x) ctf

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 10 May 2013, 01:46

There is no reason for any map (counting light/dark/whatever variants as a different map) to be played twice in the entire tournament.

Is QR 3 games? I can't remember. Assuming it is...

3 rounds of QR x 3 maps per = 9
4 rounds of DE x 5 maps per = 20

Surely we can find 29 maps to use. Those that are well-proven/tested can get captures and flag rally. Those less so can handle lmoth, ctf, koth, and terries. Don't waste a great FR map with lmoth (hver); or miss a chance to take advantage of a map's strengths (terr is better than anything else on GraveReason).

limp · Post by **limp** » 10 May 2013, 07:46

Playing the same map more than once in the tournament, is incredibly common in MWC.

It requires each captain to watch films of the enemy team playing the same map from an earlier round, and trying to strategize accordingly, taking into account what worked and what didn't in the map's first appearance.

Some maps are indeed missing, and for the most part, almost all of the stock maps as they have been literally played to death. There are many staples in spite of this, and I managed to include a huge variety of the entirety of third party maps worth playing.

Grilling grounds is missing, as it is nearly always a very simplistic game. Lichen light is missing because that is the only Lichen that has been used for years, dark will provide for more immersive and interesting strategizing, and this has certainly been played in MWC before.

Some maps do indeed have some different game types than the norm, but LMOTH games that involve a final confrontation and contest on the flag, are the most iconic and down to the wire games of myth that have ever happened. I expect more of the same of this to come from these as well.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 10 May 2013, 08:12

limp you are clearly completely delusional into self-loving your own map picks.

lmoth is never a good choice for an mwc gametype.

ever.

Yea any game with a "final confrontation" and sudden-death type contesting is going to be epic, so you can have the same thing with almost any other game type, probably have it occur a lot more often, all the while not encouraging a shitty and boring mid-fight all game.

and no, playing the exact same map more than once in the tournament is never good. if you want people to watch previous films and strategize accordingly (which probably almost never happens) then they can watch films of that map/game from a previous mwc or tws tournament and achieve the same thing.

This is why more than one person should contribute to map picks. There is way too many choices for 1 person to possibly get the full consideration of the entire array of options.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 10 May 2013, 08:48

GiantKillerGen wrote:Yea any game with a "final confrontation" and sudden-death type contesting is going to be epic, so you can have the same thing with almost any other game type, probably have it occur a lot more often, all the while not encouraging a shitty and boring mid-fight all game.

Seems no one wants to acknowledge that this is exactly why KotM should be considered (I think as a core competitive gametype). Yeah, it's not traditional, but if we only stuck with tradition, MWC would only feature those "played to death" maps limp mentions.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 10 May 2013, 12:12

i just don't see the point, so i'll keep it brief;

Probably should have never posted maps until it was actually time for them to be played, and just waited for you guys to voice your opinions about that instead.

you demand me to post the entire map listing, just to go on a disagreement parade.

most of these disagreements are all related to preference anyway.

someone sees value from replaying the same map in the same round (or tournament), and considers the 'rematch' a competitive and enjoyable aspect.
other people think each map should be played as a one time deal and if people want to have knowledge about the map or how its played they should look at prior tournaments (instead of in-match adjustment).
someone would rather play a classic and traditional tournament map over a variation.
knowing the likelihood of how the same map will play out over and over again has some sort of resonate value for those with that experience.
each map has its own strengths and weaknesses.
some map picks are slow paced, some are faster paced.

In the end, all teams are measured in their ability to play head-to-head against other teams, by the conditions (map picks; i.e. the map, the gametype, the time).

the conditions have already been set.

Can't please everyone.

everyone can do their own map picks,
when they host their own tournament
not sure why no one else had stepped up !

It's not like MWC are the only good games every summer.

there are plenty of good games inbetween matches and plenty of time to play whatever you want to play with whoever whom wants to play, before and after a MWC match; I am not taking that away from you.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 10 May 2013, 12:17

I guess i'll go over the maps a second time due to verbalized concerns. This second review will be a more thorough process.

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 10 May 2013, 12:34

Maps are fine, more captures games than I'd like but generally fine.

I like 2 team LMOTH providing one side doesn't have a clear advantage (barb valley dark)

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 10 May 2013, 12:35

If only ONE thing is to be changed... please... change Hver dark lmoth to FR or something... that is the worst possible map for lmoth.

Also, you still haven't answered this: Is Trow KOTH NUT or w/ trading?

par73 · Post by **par73** » 11 May 2013, 01:21

its an awesome situation, where the target hill that gives you the win also gives you complete disadvantage to artillery. i really like it, i think it will provide for some memorable games.

trow koth was going to be with trading. if any mappick is nut it will be designated.
we've done like a million years of trow koth with nut.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 11 May 2013, 04:09

par73 wrote:its an awesome situation, where the target hill that gives you the win also gives you complete disadvantage to artillery. i really like it, i think it will provide for some memorable games.

This is cool for KOTH, but in LMOTH these sorts of terrain disadvantages are just too ignore-able for the majority of the game.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 11 May 2013, 06:51

Right, punk. This is the situation that I see KotM addressing. I've casted a good number of games, and there's a definite loose formula that I've noticed. Both teams sidle up mid, take a few pokes, maybe send a scout or a flank, but half the time those don't cross, and so it's just a waiting game, hovering at ~89% until the final minute or two. If you don't see how KotM would remediate this situation you owe it to yourself to check it out, *especially* if you're TO-ing this shiz.

SamTheButcher · Post by **SamTheButcher** » 11 May 2013, 12:38

NewMutator wrote:Right, punk. This is the situation that I see KotM addressing. I've casted a good number of games, and there's a definite loose formula that I've noticed. Both teams sidle up mid, take a few pokes, maybe send a scout or a flank, but half the time those don't cross, and so it's just a waiting game, hovering at ~89% until the final minute or two. If you don't see how KotM would remediate this situation you owe it to yourself to check it out, *especially* if you're TO-ing this shiz.

Yea it happens sometimes like that but other times it turns into a good artillery fight. It is sort of like Grilling Grounds(light) lmoth. But Grilling Grounds has more even and fair terrain. The Barrens lmoth is another like this. I like some of the maps played lmoth where you get the long scrimmage line with both teams lined up facing each other with a lot of artillery fighting. It is a total different type of battle than what you get with something like terries on creep or something. Basically there are 2 main types of battles on big 2 tm maps. The long battle line with both teams on opposites sides squaring off. More like a real standard medieval battle. Then maps/game types without a set battle-line with more flanks and squad on squad fighting. I would like to see both types of maps/battle types played for MWC.

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 17 May 2013, 08:32

Asmodian · Post by **Asmodian** » 17 May 2013, 08:41

im going to do my complaints round by round now. Starting off with Round 1 change linched (dark) to linchen light and it will be good.

Not sure if you looked at the unit trade on cardinal sin mocking bird, bit it is going to be very very boreing for a 7v7 games. The arty units are limited to a max of 4 locks and souls. If you want a trow style koth map you should do tamer (dark) there is a reason that it has been getting chosen for koth a lot (because it plays great and the unit set is good so that every player in the game can have a potential impact role)

Please make these changes happen! I don't want to have 7v7 matches with good players ruined by playing medicore maps/game type combos.