Debate thread

A single berserk reached us yesterday, after having come all the way over the mountains from the city of Willow, fourteen hundred miles away. He delivered to Alric a single package the size of a man's fist, wrapped in rags, and refuses to talk with anyone about events in the West.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Giant Killer General »

Melekor wrote:Is it the part where you were asking me why military industrial complex, money in politics and big pharma are actually loved by progressives/marxists/etc? If so, the answer is (yet again for the Nth time) that I never claimed they are.
You claimed that they were in "overwhelming alignment" (your words) and yet could not provide any explanation for how this alignment exists on any of those issues, whether they love each other or not. convenient dodge of argument.
Melekor wrote:To argue that "corporatist/conservative" is a more accurate description of the elites than "corporatist/marxist", you'll have to argue that they push more policies which are primarily conservative but not corporatist than they do policies which are primarily marxist but not corporatist (EDIT: and I want to note that this is not just about government policies, it is about cultural norms as well, since much of culture is generated by the elites)

I think this is a really hard argument to make. The conservative agenda has been suffering defeat after defeat for decades, while corporatists and marxists have been winning, barring a few minor setbacks. Conservatives only have their way in a few major areas like free speech and 2nd ammendment rights, and these things are increasingly under attack by marxists.
nope it's actually super easy argument to make and plenty of people already know it. it's pretty simple, see if you can follow along:

-corporations want lower corporate taxes. so do conservatives.
-corporations want smaller government (so that more can be privatized), and so do conservatives.
-the corporate ruling elite like trickle-down economics, so do conservatives.
-the current supreme court that upheld citizen's united to keep money in politics (a very corporatist policy), was a conservative-leaning court with the conservative members voting for it, the more liberal members against.
-and as i said previously, the vast majority of bankers and BIG business owners / executives tend to be conservatives.

bam - alignment.

See how simple my explanations are? Now try making your explanations that simple. If you want to disagree with this, then you have to provide some kind of explanation instead of continuing to dodge it.

conservatives have won plenty of battles in the short-term. they always lose in the long-term though. corporations also win some and lose some. but to whatever extent that corporations have been winning though, it was always done with conservative backing.

of course I already know your response is "that's not what I mean, and you're using a strawman." and that's fine. you can just keep conveniently ignoring these issues without actually addressing them so that you can cling onto your worldview. you only found 1 issue (immigration) that has *some* corporations aligning more closely with liberals. meanwhile, basically every other issue corporations and conservatives largely agree on (as I just demonstrated with the previous examples). give one example other than immigration where corporations and conservatives don't largely agree (I asked for this example earlier, and you continued to ignore it). I can't think of any. they are so closely aligned that I would find it difficult to even treat the terms differently. corporatist and conservative largely mean the same thing in almost any context.

Again, not arguing whether left or right is better. only about which side has to more closely own the corporatist label. if you want to call liberals a bunch of, lazy, welfare-taking, economic leeching hippies, that's fine. I can at least understand why you would say that. but you have to own the corporatist label. it's yours. and you may not believe that, that's fine. but I would wager the majority of people would sooner agree with my side than yours. and perception is reality in some sense. your only hope then is to convince people to switch to your side. but I bet you that in the war of ideas, I can convince way more people of that truth (with those examples I just laid out) than you can of whatever your beliefs are. especially since you can't even communicate your ideas clearly at all for anyone to even be able to understand it before it can even be disagreed with.

your argument just sounds like you are bitter and unhappy with the culture of the country, and you see corporations adapting to the changing culture which further validates that culture, and is a sign that the world is moving on without you. And so you blame the corporations (and falsely believe they are the source of the cultural changes), and then find it pleasing to then connect them to your political opposition (even though you cannot explain said connection at all). this is nothing more than a convenience to maintain your worldview and dodge any intellectual accountability.

if you feel you are losing the culture war then I guess you are either: 1) not doing an effective job in communicating your ideas so that they can spread and take hold in culture, or otherwise you are, 2) defending an untenable position which is bound to be discovered as not the truth. take your pick. have some introspection and take responsibility for your own philosophy's failures to inspire and influence positive change, rather than using ideological scapegoats for why it didn't turn out the way you wanted, just so you can sleep better at night with your cognitive dissonance and never be forced to change anything about your worldview.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by sasper »

gkg is actually reasonably good, he's a bit of a fuckwit, but that is to be expected.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

You just listed a bunch of examples of ideological overlap between corporatists and economic conservatives.

You didn't prove that the ruling elites lean towards that side. In fact, several of the things you listed are actually examples of conservatives not setting policy.
-corporations want lower corporate taxes. so do conservatives.
Effective corporate tax rates have been decreasing in recent decades, but net taxation (corporate and non corporate) has not decreased, while govt spending has increased. Basically all of the decrease in revenue from corporate taxes has been funded by deficit spending which is anathema to economic conservatives. Corporations win, conservatives not so much. In fact both net taxation and corporate taxes are still massively up over the last 100 years. The USA has some of the highest corporate taxes in the world. There are loopholes for lower effective rates that large corporations are able to take advantage of, which are beyond reach of small business owners.
-corporations want smaller government (so that more can be privatized), and so do conservatives.
So what. Notice that government has experienced massive growth, not shrinking, and the trend continues to be UP UP UP. Conservatives lost here as usual.
-the corporate ruling elite like trickle-down economics, so do conservatives.
That must be why the welfare state keeps getting bigger and bigger every year right? Conservatives lose again.
the current supreme court that upheld citizen's united to keep money in politics (a very corporatist policy), was a conservative-leaning court with the conservative members voting for it, the more liberal members against.
Yes, this is indeed a very corporatist policy.
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/artic ... ing-spigot
"Republicans oppose Citizens United 80 percent to 18 percent, according to the poll. Democrats oppose 83 percent to 13 percent"
-and as i said previously, the vast majority of bankers and BIG business owners / executives tend to be conservatives
This is a very simplistic view. Political alignment varies by industry. Bankers are roughly centrist on average, not conservative. Although they do tend to donate more money to corporatist republicans. Conservatives are concentrated in the mining, energy and agriculture industries, and progressives are concentrated in media and tech (silicon valley etc) and in academia. Media, hollywood & academia are very influential cultural elite. Mining CEOs and farmers may be rich, but they aren't exactly the elite.

And actual policy on banks in recent times has been very corrupt and corporatist with government bailouts (which are essentially socialism) and lawlessness (financial fraud going unpunished). This is corporatist special interests winning again, not conservatism at work.
conservatives have won plenty of battles in the short-term. they always lose in the long-term though.
That's what we've observed in recent history, but there isn't any reason why this must always be the case.
If it's your contention that the elites are conservative, then why do they always lose in the long term? Do you believe in Whig History?
give one example other than immigration where corporations and conservatives don't largely agree (I asked for this example earlier, and you continued to ignore it). I can't think of any. they are so closely aligned that I would find it difficult to even treat the terms differently.
I did give examples. Basically anything and everything related to the culture wars. The cultural elite have been steadily moving culture to the left, and corporations go along with the flow, even wholeheartedly embracing and pushing some of the developments such as women in the workforce and immigration. These days they're even pandering to stuff like affirmative action which is actually net-negative to the bottom line which is weird.
corporatist and conservative largely mean the same thing in almost any context.
heh, no wonder this argument is going in circles. Just a guess here, but that's probably because you don't actually know what a conservative is. To be fair, there is a lot of confusion about that in recent times with elected republicans and democrats almost acting as two halves of a corporatist uniparty.
your argument just sounds like you are bitter and unhappy with the culture of the country.
My "argument" was merely a statement that the ruling elites have a corporatist, marxist agenda. My OP was an explanation of why the elites are still pushing the debunked Wage Gap myth. You agree they have a corporatist agenda, and history plainly shows that conservatives have been losing the culture wars to marxists for decades. So how is "corporatist/marxist" not an accurate description of the force steering the ship?
and you see corporations adapting to the changing culture which is further validating that culture, and so you blame them (and falsely believe they are the source of the change), and then find it pleasing to then connect them to your political opposition (even though you cannot explain said connection at all)
And are you seriously claiming that we would have the same policies on immigration and such if corporations were opposed to those things? We've seen that corporatists tend to get what they want most of the time.

Anyway GKG. Tell me again about how our ruling elites are conservative once the income tax has been abolished and the 1965 immigration act has been repealed along with the rest of the nonsense from the last 100 years. It'll take a while, but in the long run progressive policies always lead to collapse due to resource depletion. Maybe this time is different if we manage to reach star-trek level tech to solve every problem, but somehow I doubt it.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by switch »

Government bailout /= nationalization

Melekor ~ Butterfield is to blame for this!

Who are the cultural elite you speak of? Who are the true conservatives you imagine are fighting the anti corporatist fight against the road to serfdom?

You have at no point in this ridiculous thread actually defined any of your terms, be it marxist, socialist, corporatist, or conservative. Yet you repeadtly state that others do not understand the terms the way you desire them too. I challenge you to explain what you think a true conservative is, and who are the marxist cultural warriors in the elite you describe.

You seem to take a page from jewish socialist cultural elitist dissident Noam Chomsky when you describe the republicans and Democrats as factions of a single party.

Stating over and over again that the elite are Marxists does not make it true. Firstly you need to identify who you mean by this (Soros, Rothschilds etc)), and secondly you need to explain the method by which the jewish Marxists manipulate the immigration debate and increase global taxes ( yet oddly maintain low tariffs, unlike Marxists), no doubt with the illuminati objective of nwo and white genocide.

You gave some deluded vision about returning to the gilded age which is called ARCADIANISM. This is a form of utopianism ultimately found commonly amongst idiots, von mises readers, and Jacksonian opponents of Wilsonian money manipulation.

You can man up and just say it. But you'd rather go round and round with holier than thou dog whistle comments since the brutal truth is: you have no argument. There is nothing to say here that I do not already know. You are just like every other alt right tin pot anti-Semite and it shows. Prove me wrong, cracker.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

anti-semite? I'm half jewish you dunce. fuck you.

maybe you're the anti-semite if you think all marxists are jews

you want definitions try wikipedia, I'm not going to write a book for you.

YOU have no arguments. You are all about ad hominem, vapid psychoanalysis and meta critiqing my posts.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by switch »

I bet you get most of your info from Wikipedia.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by sasper »

shadow wrote:
Fat lier
*liar... are you ever going to learn english?
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Re: Debate thread

Post by BIG KROK V8 SS »

switch wrote:That's not true, Kirk. While career officers do tend to vote Republican (more funding, more opportunities for career advancement), however, enlisted are more likely to vote Democrat. In 2012, serving military personal donated vastly more money to the Obama campaign than to the Romney campaign. Furthermore, you can easily find a number of democrat and republican, veterans, in say, the US congress. Of course, there are other trends, for example, US Navy SEALS tend to be Republicans. On the other hand, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dunford USMC, recently encouraged servicemen and women to stay out of politics to preserve their legitimacy and impartiality. What, exactly, is your point?

It's no secret that Republicans have made an ideological and political issue out of welfare exploitation and transgender. Why is this issue so disproportionately obsessive to the Republican ideologues?
You don't even live in my country. You don't know shit, you pot smoking hippie. Transgender is a mental illness. Because Republicans want law and order in our country and not a bunch of idiots roaming around doing whatever they please. This isn't Brazil.

How's canada doing in the Olympics by the way? LOL

America #1 dominating every event. Michael Phelps is the most dominant athlete since Muhammed Ali. Funny how the rest of the world thinks we are all fat. Canada eats more donuts per year than all of America. What does that tell you?
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Giant Killer General »

Melekor wrote:You just listed a bunch of examples of ideological overlap between corporatists and economic conservatives.

You didn't prove that the ruling elites lean towards that side. In fact, several of the things you listed are actually examples of conservatives not setting policy.
If you agreed that one of the biggest motives (if not the biggest) of the ruling elite is to get as much money as possible (money = power, especially when you can buy politicians), then this ideological overlap of the common economic interests of both conservatives and corporatists proves it quite well. just because you say it doesn't prove it, doesn't make it so. I can explain this to almost anyone and they will understand it. And just because conservatives didn't get their way on certain corporatist policy issues, doesn't mean that they didn't try to.

Also, its convenient that you have this weird dodge for conservatives, but don't give the same dodge to liberals. I could just as easy say the same thing to you about your connection to the ruling elite and so-called "marxists" using your same standard. You didn't prove it.
Melekor wrote:Effective corporate tax rates have been decreasing in recent decades, but net taxation (corporate and non corporate) has not decreased, while govt spending has increased.
I am sure even you must realize that the absolute net number of taxes is not more important than the effective tax rate for the purposes of comparing taxes over time. If corporations have been consolidating their power over the political / economic system and becoming increasingly more profitable (which many have, as demonstrated by growing income inequality), then of course the overall net might be up. Not to mention how inflation affects the number over time too. This is similar to the typical conservative talking point about how much the top 1% pay in taxes, without mentioning how much money they make in comparison.
Melekor wrote:Basically all of the decrease in revenue from corporate taxes has been funded by deficit spending which is anathema to economic conservatives. Corporations win, conservatives not so much.
Firstly, conservative republicans approved all those budgets with deficits just as much as the centrist democrats. Conservative politicians talk a big game about trying to balance the budget, when in reality they are at least just as guilty as democrats in creating deficits. Secondly and more importantly, conservatives won by reducing the corporate taxes all those years - corporations and conservatives winning together.
Melekor wrote:In fact both net taxation and corporate taxes are still massively up over the last 100 years. The USA has some of the highest corporate taxes in the world. There are loopholes for lower effective rates that large corporations are able to take advantage of, which are beyond reach of small business owners.
The USA has some of the highest marginal corporate tax rates in the world, not some of the highest effective corporate tax rates, which is what they actually pay. Another fallacy which is a typical conservative talking point. As you said, there is a lot more that goes into the calculation of what corporations actually pay, and the corporate tax rate is just the starting point of that calculation before a bunch of reductions are added. This is why corporations like Google or Apple are reported as paying little or no taxes despite massive profits.

I guess you attempt to cop out by saying it doesn't reach small business owners, but that is irrelevant in this discussion because small business owners are not part of the corporate ruling elite which is what we are talking about. And who supported all of those tax loop holes and reductions? Conservative politicians. (Some centrist democrats as well to be sure, they are all lobbied, but establishment democrats are hardly truly liberal). So here again, corporations and conservatives win.

Melekor wrote:
-corporations want lower corporate taxes. so do conservatives.
So what. Notice that government has experienced massive growth, not shrinking, and the trend continues to be UP UP UP. Conservatives lost here as usual.
You seem to be operating under the presumption that the corporate ruling elite always win. We do live in a democracy (imperfect as it may be), so they do lose sometimes. So them losing does not disprove that both conservatives and corporatists still want the same thing in this regard. I'll take your "so what" as an admission of defeat on this point. Also, even though government gets bigger, doesn't mean that the corporations don't just find more ways to suck off of the government tit (Obamacare being a good example). So while it may not be the first choice (they would still prefer privatization), the second choice of leeching profitable government contracts is also still just fine for them. They make it work either way.
-the corporate ruling elite like trickle-down economics, so do conservatives.
Melekor wrote:That must be why the welfare state keeps getting bigger and bigger every year right? Conservatives lose again.
Again, just because they lost now does not disprove that they were not aligned on this goal. So this is a non-point on your part, and you seem to concede that they are aligned here, so another admission of defeat from you on this point. And just because they are losing now as trickle-down theory continues to be discredited, does not mean that they did not win on it decades again when it was the prevailing economic philosophy. Again, who is losing or winning is a very different discussion than who is aligned with who.
Melekor wrote:
the current supreme court that upheld citizen's united to keep money in politics (a very corporatist policy), was a conservative-leaning court with the conservative members voting for it, the more liberal members against.
Yes, this is indeed a very corporatist policy.
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/artic ... ing-spigot
"Republicans oppose Citizens United 80 percent to 18 percent, according to the poll. Democrats oppose 83 percent to 13 percent"
Are you saying that sarcastically or not? I can't tell. Are you trying to argue that citizen's united is not pro-corporatist?

Your link only proves that there is a disconnect between conservative voters and conservative politicians (and in this case, judges). That is a fair point to make (but ultimately only shows how broken our political system is, a completely separate discussion). But it still can't ignore the fact that it was conservative politicians who passed the corrupt campaign / political spending laws, or that Citizens United (which the famous supreme court case is named after) was a conservative non-profit, or that it was the conservative judges who voted to uphold this corporatist policy. They may not be conservative voters, but they are the people that you would more closely agree with on various issues. Unless you want to disown all of them completely as being not true conservatives, then let's hear that instead.
Melekor wrote:
-and as i said previously, the vast majority of bankers and BIG business owners / executives tend to be conservatives
This is a very simplistic view. Political alignment varies by industry.
Political alignment varies by industry, but we are talking about the corporate ruling elite here. And who are the corporate ruling elite? Bankers / investors, and big business owners / executives. So the point still stands.
Melekor wrote:Media, hollywood & academia are very influential cultural elite.
See now THIS would have made for a much more convincing argument, that media and institutional education appear to be more liberal so they promote a liberal agenda in culture. But you didn't say this before, you wanted to talk about the more general "corporate ruling elite", which parts of hollywood may or may not be a part of, but college professors certainly are not.

Melekor wrote:
conservatives have won plenty of battles in the short-term. they always lose in the long-term though.
That's what we've observed in recent history, but there isn't any reason why this must always be the case.
If it's your contention that the elites are conservative, then why do they always lose in the long term? Do you believe in Whig History?
Elites don't always lose in the long term, and even when they do, in many cases that change happens so slowly they don't even see it in their lifetime as individuals. They lose because this is a democracy, and they don't have absolute power. Change largely happens organically from the people over the long-term.

And anyone that loses, loses because the truth is not on their side. The future always uncovers the truth eventually. So if conservatives are losing, it's their fault, not anyone else's.
Melekor wrote:I did give examples. Basically anything and everything related to the culture wars.
You made a seemingly arbitrary list connecting seemingly random cultural items that made no sense without further explanation. I asked for further explanation, you were unable to provide it.
Melekor wrote:
corporatist and conservative largely mean the same thing in almost any context.
heh, no wonder this argument is going in circles. Just a guess here, but that's probably because you don't actually know what a conservative is. To be fair, there is a lot of confusion about that in recent times with elected republicans and democrats almost acting as two halves of a corporatist uniparty.
Great, I don't disagree here. so you are disowning conservative politicians? You are claiming that they hijacked the meaning of true conservatism? That's fine, just be open and honest about it instead of trying to pretend that conservatism is holier than thou.
Melekor wrote:So how is "corporatist/marxist" not an accurate description of the force steering the ship?
I am ignoring your use of the term marxist because it makes no sense and I am not opening that bag of worms up again with you. I am just going to assume you mean leftist whenever you use it. I would also advise you to avoid using this term in any other discussions you have with people because you are creating huge problems in the discourse over essentially nothing. It is a single term that isn't really that important (I have no idea why you want to cling to it so badly), and you can explain your point in another way without using it. Also, it makes you sound like a crazy person, not because the term itself is scary or anything, but because the connection you are attempting to make is nonsensical.

Here is what I think is the core difference between us. You think that any change that succesfully happens in this country must be corporatist because the corporate ruling elite have absolute power. They are pulling all the strings, and they never lose. See, I don't agree with this premise. Again, we live in a democracy, as imperfect as it may be. And while the corporate ruling elite does have a massive influence on the political system, it is not an absolute power (or even close to it really). They do lose sometimes. So the point is that these cultural changes that you do not like, come about organically from the people (it's a democracy). The changes come from the bottom-up changes, not the top-down. They are inspired, not manipulated (or any that are manipulated can only ever be short-term changes, not permanent).

There is also some nuance occurring here between economic interests and cultural interests which should also be pointed out. On the economic interests point, you fight a hopelessly losing battle. Corporate economic interests are the anti-thesis to leftist economic interests. It makes no sense to anybody. Nobody is going to agree with you. And as far as corporatism and conservatism, most conservatives are happy to brag about how pro-business they are, and this is widely the accepted perception of them, so I am not sure why you want to fight it so much.

On the cultural interests point, you might have a somewhat better chance. But then you have to explain, in what way are the billionaire class cultural leftists? There are plenty of old senile billionaires that are culturally conservative. Or if not billionaires, then what other people are part of the corporate ruling elite? And what makes them so socially liberal? Also why is it that all of the corporate ruling elite would all have the exact same cultural views without any disagreement, unless those views were primarily based on their common economic interests?

Also corporations can fight against progressive, leftist cultural changes just as much as they may fight for pro-immigration reform. I don't think there was a big corporate push behind the leftist civil rights movement in the 1960's to get desegregation (would love to hear you argue it though if you want to really go off the deep end). The corporate ruling elite don't like revolutions, they want to maintain the status quo. But when they lose, they go with the flow (as you said as well). The show/business must go on, they have more money to make, they aren't ever going to just close up shop. They care more about the money than the culture.

So this is another thing you have wrong. The corporate ruling elite are not pro or anti-anything on culture for the sake of culture alone. They are culturally agnostic. They are not moral or immoral, they are amoral. They are like a rogue artificial intelligence that only cares about maximizing profits. Therefore they only care about anything as soon as it gets tied to affecting their bottomline. And this is the point at which they transition from fighting against change, to going with the flow - when resisting the change starts becoming bad for business, and when going with the flow starts becoming good for business. But this just further proves my point that they were not the originators of the change. Perhaps they only validate the change much later on.
Melekor wrote:Anyway GKG. Tell me again about how our ruling elites are conservative once the income tax has been abolished and the 1965 immigration act has been repealed along with the rest of the nonsense from the last 100 years. It'll take a while, but in the long run progressive policies always lead to collapse due to resource depletion. Maybe this time is different if we manage to reach star-trek level tech to solve every problem, but somehow I doubt it.
See this shows your true emotional frustration and the true motivations behind your argument, which further proves my point. You want someone to blame while simultaneously reinforcing your prior worldview, so you throw around corporatist/marxist because it feels good.

One last point, I would love for you to expand on what exactly the corporations did for women in the workforce which was so bad. And what exactly are you proposing that we go back to in regards to women in the workforce. If you were truly for individual liberty, then anyone (women included) should be able to work or not work however they please, rather than having you (or anyone else) being able to tell them how they should live their lives. It sounds like you want to impose your own unique sense of morality, which is very anti-individual liberty. This is a massive contradiction that I always find in the right-wing mode of thinking, for as strongly as they cling to and espouse the concept of individual liberty.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by switch »

Transgender is a mental illness. Because Republicans want law and order in our country and not a bunch of idiots roaming around doing whatever they please.
Echoing precisely the sentiment expressed above concerning the Republican doublestandard of talking individual liberty while politically and ideologically opposing it. While you may not agree ideologically with the concept of cross dressing, or gender changing, or presumably anyone who does not fit your preferred sexual archetype, what moral authority do you have to lecture, or impose your preference through national elections, on those individuals concerning their own choices? Is the issue of people changing their gender identity a political priority for you? Why do you equate transgender with lawlessness? Do you find transgender people threatening in some way?


further, Do you often resort to emotional nationalism when you are demonstrated to be factually incorrect?
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Re: Debate thread

Post by BIG KROK V8 SS »

switch wrote:
Transgender is a mental illness. Because Republicans want law and order in our country and not a bunch of idiots roaming around doing whatever they please.
Echoing precisely the sentiment expressed above concerning the Republican doublestandard of talking individual liberty while politically and ideologically opposing it. While you may not agree ideologically with the concept of cross dressing, or gender changing, or presumably anyone who does not fit your preferred sexual archetype, what moral authority do you have to lecture, or impose your preference through national elections, on those individuals concerning their own choices? Is the issue of people changing their gender identity a political priority for you? Why do you equate transgender with lawlessness? Do you find transgender people threatening in some way?


further, Do you often resort to emotional nationalism when you are demonstrated to be factually incorrect?

Do you find sociopaths threatening? Its the same thing. Mental illness. Those people need to be treated, not given special rights. Might as well give pedophiles special rights too.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

GKG we are still talking past eachother on the core point of the argument, which was about the accuracy/inaccuracy of label on the elites that you so vociferously objected to. I don't want to accuse you of strawmanning again because you seem to have put in a lot of effort in the recent posts which I do appreciate.

I never referred to the elites as being exclusively corporate. You make a ton of references (I count up to 11) to the "corporate ruling elite" in your reply, which is by definition only a subset of the "ruling elite". So you're not really talking about the whole elite. Intentional strawman or not you have pulled another switcheroo here that wins your argument by definition. I've attempted to make some kind of clarification in every single post I've made that, no, I don't believe that most corporatists are marxists, no they are not one in the same, just convenient allies, just overwhelmingly aligned on certain policy goals. etc etc. and yet we're still running into this confusion which is pretty frustrating to say the least!

I spoke of the ruling elites (collectively, corporate and otherwise) as having an agenda (as a group, not necessarily as individuals) which I gave a descriptive label of corporatist and marxist. As a group it is hardly plausible to label the elite as being conservative because they basically don't achieve any conservative outcomes except those which involve making more money for corporations. They are not conserving anything, in fact they are pursuing what is literally a radical transformation of culture and demographics straight out of a marxist wet dream. How many articles by leftist media have you seen gloating about how the US will be "majority-minority by 2050"?
Great, I don't disagree here. so you are disowning conservative politicians? You are claiming that they hijacked the meaning of true conservatism? That's fine, just be open and honest about it instead of trying to pretend that conservatism is holier than thou.
Well, yes. republican != conservative, certainly. They tend to pay lip service to culture issues and then proceed to do fuck all about it once elected. Actual conservative voters have been extremely pissed off for a long time, and this is part of the Trump phenomenon.

There is a pretty good book on this subject released recently titled "Cuckservative: How 'conservatives' betrayed America"
One last point, I would love for you to expand on what exactly the corporations did for women in the workforce which was so bad. And what exactly are you proposing that we go back to in regards to women in the workforce. If you were truly for individual liberty, then anyone (women included) should be able to work or not work however they please, rather than having you (or anyone else) being able to tell them how they should live their lives. It sounds like you want to impose your own unique sense of morality, which is very anti-individual liberty. This is a massive contradiction that I always find in the right-wing mode of thinking, for as strongly as they cling to and espouse the concept of individual liberty.
All I propose is that we stop pushing feminist propaganda as policy and as culture, and instead educate women about reality.
The idea that the "wage gap" as it's commonly calculated (1 - total female income / total male income) should be reduced to zero, and any related policies.
The idea that every field and profession needs a 50:50 gender ratio. The use of any quotas, affirmative action, and subsidies.
The idea being a mother is inherently of lower value to society than having a career.
The culutral shaming of women who choose to be stay at home mothers.
It seems these days the only mothers which are praised in culture these days are the "brave single mothers", which is counterproductive. Single motherhood should be shamed because it is well documented that fatherless children face extremely high risk of a whole host of poor life outcomes.

These ideas are very mainstream and they are leading us down a dark path. Women in the west, collectively, are not fulfilling their obligation to produce the next generation, instead choosing to focus on careers. This enables corporations and marxists to justify importing ever more foreigners, leading to the eventual destruction of the nation.

There is a lot of other stuff in there that I could reply to, but I don't want to get into a time consuming point by point on tangents.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by sasper »

BIG KROK V8 SS wrote:
switch wrote:That's not true, Kirk. While career officers do tend to vote Republican (more funding, more opportunities for career advancement), however, enlisted are more likely to vote Democrat. In 2012, serving military personal donated vastly more money to the Obama campaign than to the Romney campaign. Furthermore, you can easily find a number of democrat and republican, veterans, in say, the US congress. Of course, there are other trends, for example, US Navy SEALS tend to be Republicans. On the other hand, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dunford USMC, recently encouraged servicemen and women to stay out of politics to preserve their legitimacy and impartiality. What, exactly, is your point?

It's no secret that Republicans have made an ideological and political issue out of welfare exploitation and transgender. Why is this issue so disproportionately obsessive to the Republican ideologues?
You don't even live in my country. You don't know shit, you pot smoking hippie. Transgender is a mental illness. Because Republicans want law and order in our country and not a bunch of idiots roaming around doing whatever they please. This isn't Brazil.

How's canada doing in the Olympics by the way? LOL

America #1 dominating every event. Michael Phelps is the most dominant athlete since Muhammed Ali. Funny how the rest of the world thinks we are all fat. Canada eats more donuts per year than all of America. What does that tell you?
transgender isnt a mental illness, it's simply men pretending to be women or vice versa. you can chop off your dick all you want, but you'll never grow ovaries, or turn your vagina inside out but you'll never grow sperm. it's just people who are fucked in the head
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Giant Killer General »

Melekor wrote:I never referred to the elites as being exclusively corporate.
okay, great, glad to finally identify a point of confusion. But this is where you should then define your use of the term "ruling elite", and then give some examples of who they are, some of the nuanced cases where they are not always corporate, and how exactly they are ruling. Because for me, and for most people I think, it comes down to the very simple notion that money = power. So the ruling elite are anyone with a lot of money, which generally means corporatists. And they rule by using their money to corrupt the political system. It's pretty simple. No conspiracy-type theories needed.
Melekor wrote:As a group it is hardly plausible to label the elite as being conservative because they basically don't achieve any conservative outcomes except those which involve making more money for corporations.
Okay so here is where you seem to draw a big distinction (which I noticed earlier) between the economic interests of the ruling elite, and their cultural interests. You concede that conservatives are pro-big business which is in the economic interests of the elite. But you seem to want to dodge that argument (which you wisely should) by making it sound like their economic interest is actually small potatoes to whatever their cultural interest are. So here you would need to explore this distinction further, because what other possible motive would the ruling elite have except to get richer? Getting rich seems like a pretty obvious self-interest motive, which also furthers their power. So if they have some other cultural interests (which are apparently leftist), why do they have those interests? Are they selfish interests? And why would all of the ruling elite agree on leftist cultural issues?
Melekor wrote:How many articles by leftist media have you seen gloating about how the US will be "majority-minority by 2050"?
yea I know this is be a big issue for you, but I really just don't care. It doesn't matter to me what ethnicity people are. And a lot of people don't care about this. It's not some conspiracy by the ruling elite. Nobody told me to think that way, if that's what you are wondering.
Melekor wrote:All I propose is that we stop pushing feminist propaganda as policy and as culture, and instead educate women about reality.
A bit arrogant and condescending to suggest an entire gender of people do not know reality or perhaps even implying that they are not properly educated. How on earth did we only miseducate one gender and not the other?
Melekor wrote:The idea that the "wage gap" as it's commonly calculated (1 - total female income / total male income) should be reduced to zero, and any related policies.
The idea that every field and profession needs a 50:50 gender ratio. The use of any quotas, affirmative action, and subsidies.
I don't disagree with this. I just haven't seen it really being pushed as much as you suggest.
Melekor wrote:The idea being a mother is inherently of lower value to society than having a career.
The culutral shaming of women who choose to be stay at home mothers.
Again, I haven't seen this. But of course I would agree if it were the case. But also I would add that the same standard should apply for men. Stay at home dads (which is becoming more common) might get unnecessary shame too sometimes.
Melekor wrote:It seems these days the only mothers which are praised in culture these days are the "brave single mothers", which is counterproductive. Single motherhood should be shamed because it is well documented that fatherless children face extremely high risk of a whole host of poor life outcomes.
I don't think anyone sets out with the explicit goal to become a single parent. I agree if there were some decisions on their part that led to a less than ideal parenting / family situation for their children. But I think you forget that sometimes a spouse dies unexpectedly, or perhaps was put in jail because of the stupid war on drugs, or some other unforeseeable circumstances that may arise. And regardless, there is always going to be some instances of unplanned pregnancy, divorce, etc. that lead to these situations no matter what. We should not applaud them (you suggest that this is occurring, but again, I do not see this), but likewise shaming them is also counterproductive since the mistake is already made and it is irreversible. Also if you are pro-life (which I imagine is a very real possibility for you) that means you are suggesting to shame the mothers who perhaps wanted an abortion but couldn't get one (or didn't believe in it), and had the kid anyway just as pro-lifers would prefer. So which one is it? Is it better to be shamed for having an unplanned pregnancy and have the abortion (but avoiding the single-parent scenario), or to be shamed for having an unplanned pregnancy and keeping the kid, thus becoming a single-parent?
Melekor wrote:Women in the west, collectively, are not fulfilling their obligation to produce the next generation, instead choosing to focus on careers.
You were almost sounding reasonable until this point. This is where you fall off the rails completely. Women don't have any obligation to have kids. And they are completely free to have careers. Would you like it if society shamed you for having a career? Or shamed you for not having kids? I bet not.

I am guessing you also don't want women to get an education, since why would they need that if they aren't going to have a career, right? (But of course, you alluded to better education for women earlier, so that would be a contradiction) You make it sound like women should be enslaved back to the kitchen just because it would be convenient for your worldview (a worldview very few women would share). This is why I referenced Sharia Law earlier, because this sounds an awful lot like it.

You do realize how anti-personal liberty this is right? Go ahead and preach it, but just don't go around pretending like you are some big personal-liberty advocate. This would be a massive infringement on personal liberty.

I am not sure where your special attitudes for women come from. No offense, but this makes you sound like you have a rather unhealthy attitude towards women. And it does have that men's rights vibe to it which does have a history of attracting men who have built up sexual frustration from being rejected by women for many years, and then go on to form unhealthy relationships and attitudes about women as a means to get back at them as if they are the enemy. I'm not saying that this is you, but rather just giving you a headsup that this is the vibe that it might give to a lot of people.
Melekor wrote:This enables corporations and marxists to justify importing ever more foreigners, leading to the eventual destruction of the nation.
Oh puhleez, this is very drama queenish. This is what every person says who is holding onto any kind of worldview that they know is destined to die out eventually (because it is a bad worldview). It is always the doom and gloom, apocalyptic stuff. They do it because they have no other recourse. If the truth was on your side, then you would be able to enact some real change with that truth. The truth always wins out in the end. This is why you create the concept of a "ruling elite" as an intellectual scapegoat to make sense of how the world continues to move in the opposite direction that you desire. It allows you to avoid wrestling with the notion that the vast majority of the world rejects your worldview. It is much easier to instead believe that it's not the people rejecting you, its just this magical "ruling elite" that is controlling them, and the people are unaware of it (of course, who knows how this cultural control happens, it's never explained).
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Re: Debate thread

Post by sasper »

btw kook you should check the populations of the countries. usa is roughly 330 million. canada is about 30 million. so its not surprising that usa does better than canada in the olympics. you would have to have a sub 60 iq not to understand that
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Honkey »

Gkg you are cracking me up in this thread. It took you half a decade to repeat shit you mocked me for half a decade ago. Lol.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Honkey »

Also most elites are sociopaths under the Guise of "liberalism"

Go to any city with high concentrations of minorities and look at what liberal policy has gotten them. Chicago? Record gun violence. Milwaukee? more gun violence. The same story can be told for any gun point charity liberal program that pretends to benefit the communities they serve. Here is the reality... Welfare and liberal programs are designed to create dependency.

Case and point:

I interviewed a lady for a position who also happened to be a minority. I offered her a job which could easily cap out at 40K year one. She turned down the job because she didnt want to make more than 13,999 a year as she would lose rent assistance, free cell phone, utility assistance, Free health insurance, and so on and so forth.

So instead she (smartly by the way) chose a more lucrative career..... welfare. Welfare isnt a safety net... its competition to legitimate fucking business.... and exists to buy block voting.

This is America... I risk my money opening a business... i pay payroll taxes and unemployment insurance for any person I hire... work 50+ hour weeks, etc.... and I am rewarded with unaffordable health care, more taxes than an employee pays, risk to my personal credit, and having any success broken down to me being white and having white advantages. If you ask me... getting paid 50,000 a year salaries and a la carte free health care not to work and being rewarded for poor life decisions (aka having kids with no way to support them) is a far more advantageous than having to work to get much less.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Giant Killer General »

not really interested in the standard left vs right debate. both sides can nitpick the things that support their view with confirmation bias and it really just does an injustice to all the issues because it oversimplifies what are otherwise incredibly complex issues with a lot of unknowns. Everyone talks about them with such certainty when no one could possibly be so certain of so much. the first step in any kind of learning and understanding is to first just be aware of and acknowledge how little we truly know.

Also if your story is true honkey, then I am not sure why we haven't seen you interviewed multiple times all over fox news and every other conservative media outlet as they would eat that story up for months. it has all the standard red meat in it - minority woman? check. abusing welfare? check. turns down real job to continue abusing welfare? check. What a perfect story that just happens to reinforce every single stereotype that conservatives have all at once.

I don't buy it. Why on earth would any applicant tell any prospective employer that welfare is their reason for turning down the job? Why would they apply for any full-time job to begin with that would certainly put them over their "cap" if that was their primary objective? Makes no sense, and seems way too convenient to be true. Not really that interested in debating it with you though.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

But this is where you should then define your use of the term "ruling elite", and then give some examples of who they are
I sort of thought this would be obvious.. Examples of non-business elites would be politicians, journalists, celebrities, professors, pundits. People who control information and/or political power. A lot of them tend to come out of the same ivy league schools so they have a lot of monoculture going on.
Getting rich seems like a pretty obvious self-interest motive, which also furthers their power. So if they have some other cultural interests (which are apparently leftist), why do they have those interests? Are they selfish interests?
Power and status of course. They are addicts, and they can't stop or admit that what they're doing is destructive.
And why would all of the ruling elite agree on leftist cultural issues?
Because if you don't agree you're an ignorant intolerant racist sexist misogynist islamophobic homophobic transphobic biggot and you're getting kicked out of the club!!!
yea I know this is be a big issue for you, but I really just don't care. It doesn't matter to me what ethnicity people are
that's because you live in a fantasy world where ethnicity has no actual effect on how people behave. Would be nice if it were true, but isn't.
A bit arrogant and condescending to suggest an entire gender of people do not know reality or perhaps even implying that they are not properly educated. How on earth did we only miseducate one gender and not the other?
Public schools? Bad parenting? And I never said males weren't miseducated too.
I don't think anyone sets out with the explicit goal to become a single parent.
For middle-to-upper class women, certainly not, although you're actually wrong about this in general. Especially in the black community it is not uncommon for girls to intentionally go this route so they can get welfare money. The welfare state actually incentivizes single motherhood as an alternative lifestyle for low IQ women who would not be well rewarded in the labour force.
I think you forget that sometimes a spouse dies unexpectedly
ha ha ha. This is such a meme. Windows are less than 2% of single mothers, an statistical irrelevancy.
Also if you are pro-life (which I imagine is a very real possibility for you) that means you are suggesting to shame the mothers who perhaps wanted an abortion but couldn't get one (or didn't believe in it), and had the kid anyway just as pro-lifers would prefer. So which one is it? Is it better to be shamed for having an unplanned pregnancy and have the abortion (but avoiding the single-parent scenario), or to be shamed for having an unplanned pregnancy and keeping the kid, thus becoming a single-parent?
I'm a moderate on abortion, I believe it should be banned after intermediate stage like 8 weeks give or take.
You were almost sounding reasonable until this point. This is where you fall off the rails completely. Women don't have any obligation to have kids.
Since women are the only ones who can have kids, the human race will cease to exist if they don't. Your position is not nearly as reasonable as you think it is. Oh yes, I forgot, you don't care about ethnicity so I guess as long as they're having enough kids in Africa, it's all good, right?
I am guessing you also don't want women to get an education, since why would they need that if they aren't going to have a career, right? (But of course, you alluded to better education for women earlier, so that would be a contradiction) You make it sound like women should be enslaved back to the kitchen just because it would be convenient for your worldview (a worldview very few women would share). This is why I referenced Sharia Law earlier, because this sounds an awful lot like it.

You do realize how anti-personal liberty this is right? Go ahead and preach it, but just don't go around pretending like you are some big personal-liberty advocate. This would be a massive infringement on personal liberty.
Wrong. I'm all for women being educated - as long as it's actual education and not marxist indoctrination like a gender studies degree. Besides, the stats show that reduced fertility is much more associated with women investing time in careers than it is with education.
I am not sure where your special attitudes for women come from. No offense, but this makes you sound like you have a rather unhealthy attitude towards women. And it does have that MRA vibe to it which does have a history of attracting men who have built up sexual frustration from being rejected by women for many years, and then go on to form unhealthy relationships and attitudes about women as a means to get back at them as if they are the enemy. I'm not saying that this is you, but rather just giving you a headsup that this is the vibe that it might give to a lot of people.
Please stick to the arguments and don't try to psychoanalyze me. My positions come from studying the world, and the fact that I am pro western civilization. Also, MRAs are actually feminist if you look into what they advocate.
Oh puhleez, this is very drama queenish. This is what every person says who is holding onto any kind of worldview that they know is destined to die out eventually (because it is a bad worldview). It is always the doom and gloom, apocalyptic stuff. They do it because they have no other recourse. If the truth was on your side, then you would be able to enact some real change with that truth. The truth always wins out in the end.
Yup, sounds like some classic Whig History stuff there. Let me guess, you believe you are on the "right side of history"?

Human civlizations rise and fall. We have had multicultural civilizations thousands of years ago, they did not work then and they do not work now. Maybe our modern western civilization is doomed to fall too, who can say. Doesn't mean I can't criticize the trends I see or try to convince people they should be reversed.
This is why you create the concept of a "ruling elite" as an intellectual scapegoat to make sense of how the world continues to move in the opposite direction that you desire. It allows you to avoid wrestling with the notion that the vast majority of the world rejects your worldview. It is much easier to instead believe that it's not the people rejecting you, its just this magical "ruling elite" that is controlling them, and the people are unaware of it (of course, who knows how this cultural control happens, it's never explained).
More psychobabble pablum.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Giant Killer General »

Melekor wrote:
But this is where you should then define your use of the term "ruling elite", and then give some examples of who they are
I sort of thought this would be obvious.. Examples of non-business elites would be politicians, journalists, celebrities, professors, pundits. People who control information and/or political power. A lot of them tend to come out of the same ivy league schools so they have a lot of monoculture going on.
Yea this is where I would contest the meaning of the word "ruling" since I do not see celebrities, professors, and pundits as rulers. Elite maybe, but not ruling elite. Ruling comes from actually have real power (i.e. money, and corporate ownership) to control things. That isn't the journalists either, that's the people that own the companies that the journalists work for. Which brings me back to my point that the ruling elite are the corporatists. Or else we need to split our preferred meaning of this term and whenever you use it I would just take it to mean "both the ruling and the social / cultural elite."
Melekor wrote:
Getting rich seems like a pretty obvious self-interest motive, which also furthers their power. So if they have some other cultural interests (which are apparently leftist), why do they have those interests? Are they selfish interests?
Power and status of course. They are addicts, and they can't stop or admit that what they're doing is destructive.
And why would all of the ruling elite agree on leftist cultural issues?
Because if you don't agree you're an ignorant intolerant racist sexist misogynist islamophobic homophobic transphobic biggot and you're getting kicked out of the club!!!
These are not real answers and just completely dodge the question because of course you couldn't possibly have a real answer for it. This is where your argument falls apart. If they have a leftist agenda, then what made them leftist to begin with? What is their motive? Why are conservatives so completely weak and incapable of retaking that controlling influence back from the leftists if the truth is on their side?

Otherwise I could just as easily say the exact same thing about anyone with a right-wing agenda, and I could give examples of them being the cultural elite too.
Melekor wrote:
yea I know this is be a big issue for you, but I really just don't care. It doesn't matter to me what ethnicity people are
that's because you live in a fantasy world where ethnicity has no actual effect on how people behave. Would be nice if it were true, but isn't.
You view the world through a lens where ethnicity is the primary overwhelming factor of a person's identity. I never stated it wasn't a part of it. It is just a small part to me. I don't view the world in absolutes. The fantasy world is yours. I just see America as being founded as a nation of immigrants. I see diversity as a strength, not a weakness.
Melekor wrote:
You were almost sounding reasonable until this point. This is where you fall off the rails completely. Women don't have any obligation to have kids.
Since women are the only ones who can have kids, the human race will cease to exist if they don't. Your position is not nearly as reasonable as you think it is. Oh yes, I forgot, you don't care about ethnicity so I guess as long as they're having enough kids in Africa, it's all good, right?
Very poor justification since clearly not every woman needs to have kids to sustain the human race. Not even most of them. The world can easily afford for all women to do whatever they want, and more than enough of them will still decide to have kids on their own. Also seeing as the human race is currently suffering massive overpopulation problems (and will continue to do so for some time), I hardly see the population of the human race as being in jeopardy, even just this nation's population.
Melekor wrote:
I don't think anyone sets out with the explicit goal to become a single parent.
For middle-to-upper class women, certainly not, although you're actually wrong about this in general. Especially in the black community it is not uncommon for girls to intentionally go this route so they can get welfare money. The welfare state actually incentivizes single motherhood as an alternative lifestyle for low IQ women who would not be well rewarded in the labour force.
Okay so you just acknowledged that being in the middle-to-upper class reduces rates of single-parent families. Yet you are the one suggesting that women stop working and just stay at home. This is supposed to help their situation how? Wouldn't women having a career help to put them in the middle-class which would then help to reduce rates of single-parent families in future generations? Or are they just supposed to hope that they can marry a wealthy enough guy? That is the big strategy here now for the future role of women?

You brought up the issue of single-parent families for some reason, but I am failing to see how this connects with the original issue we were discussing, which was why women shouldn't worry about having careers and just stay at home. I think you were suggesting that women would be able to have more kids if they only stayed at home, but of course not having kids in the first place does not create a single-parent family. In fact, women with careers and less kids probably even helps to reduce the rate of single-parent families, which you should be in favor of according to your other position. So your 2 positions of 1) women stay at home / don't work, and 2) reduce rates of single-parent families, are at odds with each other. Another contradiction.
Melekor wrote:
I think you forget that sometimes a spouse dies unexpectedly
ha ha ha. This is such a meme. Windows are less than 2% of single mothers, an statistical irrelevancy.
Well it was just one example of many I was trying to think of. The point is that you act as if it is only ever the woman's fault if they find themselves in the single-mother situation. The man might have just left too as soon as they found out about the pregnancy. Go look up how often that happens, I bet it's not statistically insignificant. And I bet it happens more often than the instances of intentional abuse of the welfare system.
Melekor wrote:
You do realize how anti-personal liberty this is right? Go ahead and preach it, but just don't go around pretending like you are some big personal-liberty advocate. This would be a massive infringement on personal liberty.
Wrong. I'm all for women being educated - as long as it's actual education and not marxist indoctrination like a gender studies degree. Besides, the stats show that reduced fertility is much more associated with women investing time in careers than it is with education.
You still completely ignored the obvious anti-personal liberty implications of your argument for women, another convenient dodge. How would you even hope to enact this policy? Groom young girls in school to only aspire to be stay-at-home moms? But you said you wanted to give them a great education too. So you are in-effect saying that you want to give women a great education, but then also give up any dreams of doing anything with that education just to be a stay-at-home mom. What makes you think that if you give women all this knowledge that that would become their preferred choice? The only way women remained as stay-at-home moms for so many centuries / decades is precisely because they did not have an education (and thus no other opportunities). Another contradiction in your 2 positions (give women an education, but also convince them to be stay at home moms).
Melekor wrote:Yup, sounds like some classic Whig History stuff there. Let me guess, you believe you are on the "right side of history"?

Human civlizations rise and fall. We have had multicultural civilizations thousands of years ago, they did not work then and they do not work now. Maybe our modern western civilization is doomed to fall too, who can say. Doesn't mean I can't criticize the trends I see or try to convince people they should be reversed.
Of course go ahead and criticize trends as you see them. But the moment you start talking about the apocolyptic stuff then you are just showing that you have given up on your own ideas and concede defeat in knowing that you will not be able to convince a sufficient number of people to regain control. The truth always wins out in the long-term. So if you can't convince / influence people to bring about the change that you desire, then clearly something is wrong with your ideas or at the very least your communication of those ideas. The scoreboard in the war of ideas is the number of minds you can influence. If you think you are losing that war then that would require some introspection to figure out what conservatives are doing wrong. Even if you are right, stop making it about only your political opposition, and figure out what it is that your political allies are doing wrong that is causing people to stop listening to them.

Even if this civilization does fall, that still doesn't mean a better one won't come from it afterwards. That might just be a natural part of the evolution of humanity. It also would not be a given that it was due to "leftist" policies. Leftists would only make the same kind of argument against the right.

Last question - you mentioned earlier that true conservatism is about conservation. So does that mean you believe in conserving the environment as well and desire policies that fight against the effects of climate change?
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

Giant Killer General wrote: These are not real answers and just completely dodge the question because of course you couldn't possibly have a real answer for it. This is where your argument falls apart. If they have a leftist agenda, then what made them leftist to begin with? What is their motive?
What is the motivation for any ideology? What motivates Christians to "love thy neighbour" while Muslims prefer to "kill the infidel"? Ideologies are memes, mind viruses. You can try to understand how cult members rationalize their beliefs but it's mostly a pointless exercise. The primary reasons are always peer pressure and social status.
Why are conservatives so completely weak and incapable of retaking that controlling influence back from the leftists if the truth is on their side?
Good question. It's not a simple answer. The left had a very effective strategy for taking control (google "Long march through the institutions") and I think the conservatives didn't really realize what was happening until it was too late. Conservatives were not intellectually equipped to deal with radical tactics such as political correctness, but that is finally starting to change in recent times.
You view the world through a lens where ethnicity is the primary overwhelming factor of a person's identity. I never stated it wasn't a part of it. It is just a small part to me. I don't view the world in absolutes.
I know I asked you not to psychoanalyze me but let me do it for this one. If you hold this view, it's almost certainly because you're white. Nonwhites don't tend to view the world this way very often, especially if they're on the left where identity politics are huge.
The fantasy world is yours. I just see America as being founded as a nation of immigrants. I see diversity as a strength, not a weakness.
You see diversity as a strength and not a weakness, but this view is based on leftist ideology and not on real world evidence. Much study has been done on the actual effects of diversity and the results aren't pretty.
Very poor justification since clearly not every woman needs to have kids to sustain the human race. Not even most of them. The world can easily afford for all women to do whatever they want, and more than enough of them will still decide to have kids on their own. And also seeing as the human race is suffering massive overpopulation problems, I hardly see the population of the human race as being in jeopardy, even just this nation's population.
It's only really Africa that has a long-term overpopulation problem, and a few other places to a lesser extent. Western countries have a deficit which is what concerns me.
You still completely ignored the obvious anti-personal liberty implications of your argument for women, another convenient dodge.
What on earth are you talking about? Working to remove feminist propaganda from mainsteam culture is a infringement on personal liberty? ohhhkay..
Of course go ahead and criticize trends as you see them. But the moment you start talking about the apocolyptic stuff then you are just showing that you have given up on your own ideas and concede defeat in knowing that you will not be able to convince a sufficient number of people to regain control. The truth always wins out in the long-term. So if you can't convince / influence people to bring about the change that you desire, then clearly something is wrong with your ideas or your communication of those ideas. The scoreboard in the war of ideas is the number of minds you can influence.
I don't buy this argument at all. The left uses apocalyptic tones when they talk about global warming, does this mean that they have given up and conceded defeat? Pointing out the potential consequences of a fully extrapolated trend is just good rhetoric.
Even if this civilization does fall, that doesn't mean a better one won't come from it afterwards. It also would not be a given that it was due to "leftist" policies. Leftists would only make the same kind of argument against the right.
Sure, a better one could and probably would eventually appear, but such transitions are nasty and reduce the average pace of technological advancement. Imagine where we'd be today if Rome had never fallen!
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Giant Killer General »

Melekor wrote:You see diversity as a strength and not a weakness, but this view is based on leftist ideology and not on real world evidence. Much study has been done on the actual effects of diversity and the results aren't pretty.
Actually I have observed the very real benefits of diversity in my own personal experience in various teams I have been a part of (including the military). The worst teams were the ones that lacked diversity. While there are some kinds of differences that can be disadvantageous and create unresolvable conflict, there are many more kinds of differences that are beneficial and create synergies.

And you are wrong about the research. Just google "diversity in the workplace." It is proven to be a benefit. Companies know this too. Not sure where you get your information from.
Melekor wrote:
Very poor justification since clearly not every woman needs to have kids to sustain the human race. Not even most of them. The world can easily afford for all women to do whatever they want, and more than enough of them will still decide to have kids on their own. And also seeing as the human race is suffering massive overpopulation problems, I hardly see the population of the human race as being in jeopardy, even just this nation's population.
It's only really Africa that has a long-term overpopulation problem, and a few other places to a lesser extent. Western countries have a deficit which is what concerns me.
A few western countries, not a majority, and the US not being among them. Also a slight population decline would actually be a good thing so we could get our population under control and start focusing and investing more in improving the quality of things instead of their quantity. As things are now, we are in a constant state of desperation trying to figure out how to deal with the sheer quantity of kids coming up in each subsequent generation, how to feed them all and push them all through half-assed factory public schooling.

You act like there is a big race war coming or something, and we need all the bodies we can get. The population cannot grow indefinitely.
Melekor wrote:
You still completely ignored the obvious anti-personal liberty implications of your argument for women, another convenient dodge.
What on earth are you talking about? Working to remove feminist propaganda from mainsteam culture is a infringement on personal liberty? ohhhkay..
No, the implication of somehow grooming women to give up any notion of having a future career to become a stay-at-home mom. Go re-read that section that I wrote there, since I added another paragraph while you were replying.
Melekor wrote:
Of course go ahead and criticize trends as you see them. But the moment you start talking about the apocolyptic stuff then you are just showing that you have given up on your own ideas and concede defeat in knowing that you will not be able to convince a sufficient number of people to regain control. The truth always wins out in the long-term. So if you can't convince / influence people to bring about the change that you desire, then clearly something is wrong with your ideas or your communication of those ideas. The scoreboard in the war of ideas is the number of minds you can influence.
I don't buy this argument at all. The left uses apocalyptic tones when they talk about global warming, does this mean that they have given up and conceded defeat?
The difference is that global warming is quite literal science. It is a physical event occuring in nature. You can't change or influence it by arguing / debating it. Only science can change science.

In contrast, this is the war of ideas we are talking about here. It is philosophy, and you change it by inspiring people to change their mind. And if the truth was on your side then you could sway people to your side. People are naturally drawn to the truth in the long-term, so why can't your side draw more followers if you have the truth? Again, why are conservatives so weak in taking back control of the leftist cultural influence? Could it be that the truth is not actually on their side after all?

The clock is ticking on the conservative ideas. Another few decades and the old guard will die off, and the millenials will be in power. If you haven't convinced the millenials by then, you're screwed. Conservatism would then continue to retreat and evolve in a way that moves further and further to the left out of compromise and a desperation to remain relevant. You already see this happening on the gay marriage issue today.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

I started writing a reply but realized it will be too time consuming to complete since our disagreement is so broad and we're getting to the point where I would need to start digging up sources and statistics, writing multipage explanations, and I forsee future posts getting even longer and longer. So I think I'm going to bow out of this debate for now in favor of more productive activity. It's been fun though - good old arguing on the internet amiright?
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

Last question - you mentioned earlier that true conservatism is about conservation. So does that mean you believe in conserving the environment as well and desire policies that fight against the effects of climate change?
oh I did want to at least answer this one quickly, yes I do believe in that. I'd be in favor of a carbon tax as long as the extra revenue is offset by an income tax cut.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by switch »

where I would need to start digging up sources and statistics, writing multipage explanations, and I forsee future posts getting even longer and longer.
Melekor ~ I finally decided I should actually provide some relevant, non emotional, factual information. But that's too hard so I won't.
in fact they are pursuing what is literally a radical transformation of culture and demographics straight out of a marxist wet dream.
It's statements like this that reveal how totally empty, shallow, and stupid your argument is. Can you provide a SINGLE example of the "marxists" you think are promoting this agenda?
There is a pretty good book on this subject released recently titled "Cuckservative: How 'conservatives' betrayed America"
Literally?
All I propose is that we stop pushing feminist propaganda as policy and as culture, and instead educate women about reality.
"Reality" as defined by you. What "reality" exactly are you thinking of here?
This enables corporations and marxists to justify importing ever more foreigners, leading to the eventual destruction of the nation.
sounds like BLOOD POISONING to me.
My positions come from studying the world, and the fact that I am pro western civilization.
You are an embarrassment to western civilization. You're literally a racists who believes a magical all powerful group of "marxist-corporatists feminist" elites is trying to systematically brainwash the entire US population towards cuckoldry, race mixing, and mass immigration with the objective of destroying the "nation" and more importantly, for you, the white race. You have absolutely no defence against this statement, and have utterly failed in this thread to provide any evidence to support your claims. In fact, you've pussied out every time you've been cornered and forced to admit that your entire world view is demented and built on thin air.
Human civlizations rise and fall. We have had multicultural civilizations thousands of years ago, they did not work then and they do not work now.
Do you believe that the major causal factor in the decline of civilizations is race mixing? Can you cite a single example?
Yup, sounds like some classic Whig History stuff there. Let me guess, you believe you are on the "right side of history"?
This actually isn't a whig interpretation- it's pretty clear you don't actually know what whig history is- and secondly, do you see YOURSELF as being on the "RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY"? Man you are a stupid fuck.
The primary reasons [for supporting any ideology] are always peer pressure and social status.
Sounds like that must be the justification for your own support of the ideology of "true racial conservatism" then?
radical tactics such as political correctness
Like Kirk, you seem to feel threatened by the concept of being nice to people. Why is this?
but this view is based on leftist ideology and not on real world evidence. Much study has been done on the actual effects of diversity and the results aren't pretty.
Can you provide a SINGLE EXAMPLE to support your claim?
Working to remove feminist propaganda from mainsteam culture is a infringement on personal liberty?
You would have to explain the nature of the feminist plot by the marxist globalists to justify this statement. What is the "mainstream" culture, according to you?

I have some idea what you think it looks like: White women are being brainwashed by Rothschild and Soros and the Jewish heads of the global banking elite to destroy the white race. The satanic illuminati reptilians use feminist cuckoldry propaganda through the IMF, EEC, and WTO media organizations to cause mass immigration of BLACKS and HISPANICS into WHITE AMERICA to destroy the civilization. This is the classic reptilian/jewish scheme exposed in the totally legit protocols of the elders of zion and recorded by Adolf Hitler in his great book, Mein Kampf (which I've read several times), with the objective of destroying the white nation through debt slavery, socialist taxation (THEFT) degeneracy and miscegenation. The CUCKSERVATIVES in the republican party aren't TRUE conservatives who understand whats REALLY GOING ON, and women need to be indoctrinated with the TRUTH so that I can get laid because for some reason women never want to talk to me since I'm crazy as shit, and this is of course the fault of the leftist marxists who rule the world through the Trilateral commission, council on foreign relations, cecil block, committee of 300 and so on!


Here we can see Melekor contemplating his profound wisdom:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY

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Re: Debate thread

Post by sasper »

whats with all this tldr shit going on???
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Giant Killer General »

I think the diversity in the workplace argument finally got him. Seriously anyone can quickly google "diversity in the workplace" and get tons of articles and research studies about its benefits. Here is just one example of one such study done by princeton (a quick read of the intro and conclusion can give you some sense of it), but of course all of academia is leftist propaganda, so go figure how to get around that one. We must only pick out and trust the sources of research that agree with our prior worldview of course, rather than taking the aggregate of all such studies.

At worst, some studies might have some smaller suggestions that there is no effect. However, none of the studies that I could find in a quick search argued that diversity in the workplace actually has a negative effect. He couldn't cite a single study that indicates this, hence the bow-out. Or even if he could cite one, how would he explain the overwhelming number of studies that are contrary to such?

If diversity in the workplace has benefits, its not hard to extrapolate that to diversity in any kinds of teams, including societies / nations to also have benefits from it (thus, America was founded as a nation of immigrants and draws strength from its diversity), which would then imply immigration does have at least some benefits, and then the whole core of his argument falls apart.

His argument definitely has a real white-supremacist type vibe to it, though he probably rejects that label and would call anyone mentioning it to him as being too "politically correct."
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

figures you guys would try to pull me back in :P

switch, holy cow dude! you come across as absolutely frothing at the mouth. I have precisely zero intention of engaging you and your ad hominem bullshit. I need to find out if this forum has a block function.

GKG you are much more reasonable. I enjoy debating with you. But don't have infinite time to spend. At some point, we'll agree to disagree, this is just the nature of "arguing on the internet" especially with politics.

That said, it seems I can't escape without a cite against diversity. The most cited study about the negative effects of diversity is "E Pluribus Unum: Diversity and Community in the 21st Century", with over 3100 citations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D. ... ommunities
the actual paper: http://macaulay.cuny.edu/eportfolios/be ... Putnam.pdf

It's amusing that Putnam himself is a liberal, and was so disturbed by his findings that he delayed publication for 6 years until he could "develop proposals to compensate for the negative effects of diversity".

---------------------------------------


As for diversity in the workplace. I should clarify. Diversity of thought and experience is absolutely essential. Society could not function if everyone was a clone of one person all with the same skills.

But diversity of culture, skin colour, gender, etc are not the same thing as diversity of thought and experience. And when leftists talk about workplace diversity, what they really mean is always less white males. Case in point, the recent kerfuffle about lack of diversity in silicon valley. How are they measuring this lack of diversity? Why, by race and gender of course.

Ironically, one of the places most severely lacking in diversity of thought is the social sciences departments of universities. Because they have purged most conservatives from their ranks, they are stuck in a dangerous level of groupthink blindness.
Check out the heterodox academy if you're interested: http://heterodoxacademy.org/problems/

So diverity of thought is essential. But diversity of culture is something else. Diversity of culture creates communication barriers and conflict. For example, as a marine, how effective do you think your squad would have been if half the guys didn't speak english? How about if some of them were muslim fundamentalists that refused to take orders from a female officer? Extreme examples yes, but they should make the point crystal clear. Smaller culture differences would lead to smaller conflicts, but still adding friction.

Actually the military is actually the best possible example of inter-ethnic cooperation, because the military explicitly breaks down individual identities during training, and replaces them with a strong military identity. I'm sure you know all about this. Ooh Rah and such. Those who don't want this either don't join in the first place or end up quitting. This is not at all what happens with economic migrants that often end up in ethnic enclaves and on welfware with little incentive to integrate.

Cultural diversity in a company could in theory matter in situations where you are dealing with many different clients and customers from diverse cultures, to be able to better understand and anticipate their needs. But this is merely a self fulfilling prophecy of multiculturalism, it is not in and of itself beneficial. Cultural diversity is essentially irrelevant to technological innovation which is based almost entirely on IQ. And technological innovation is what drives economic growth in the long run.
America was founded as a nation of immigrants and draws strength from its diversity
The founding fathers' vision of america, as written into law in the Naturalization Act of 1790, limited citizenship to "Free white persons of good character". So much for that theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturaliz ... ct_of_1790
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Re: Debate thread

Post by switch »

switch, holy cow dude! you come across as absolutely frothing at the mouth. I have precisely zero intention of engaging you and your ad hominem bullshit. I need to find out if this forum has a block function.
This is positively hilarious coming from the guy who advocates anti-political correctness. Your own medicine too bitter for you?
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

switch wrote:
switch, holy cow dude! you come across as absolutely frothing at the mouth. I have precisely zero intention of engaging you and your ad hominem bullshit. I need to find out if this forum has a block function.
This is positively hilarious coming from the guy who advocates anti-political correctness. Your own medicine too bitter for you?
... so because I advocate against political correctness, I am required to essentially troll myself by responding to your insane frothing at the mouth attacks? think again retard.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by switch »

the actual paper: http://macaulay.cuny.edu/eportfolios/be ... Putnam.pdf
Lol, did you even READ the article? it overwhelmingly argues in favour of diversity (and immigration) both medium and long term, with the short term impacts being offset by the benefits. Furthermore, the short term "distrust" that the study identifies is clearly stated to NOT correlate to poor race relations. The homogeneous cases the study looked at are generally small, rural, interior towns, rather than bustling coastal metropolises. I would argue that the study's findings actually demonstrate the nature of trust as a product of urbanization rather than diversity itself (an objection the study in fact recognizes!). You would be wise to consult the other readings that are recommended for this course in NYC urban geography that you've pulled this particular essay from.
is the social sciences departments of universities. Because they have purged most conservatives from their ranks, they are stuck in a dangerous level of groupthink blindness.
Universities are private businesses. They offer whatever courses will generate high revenue and enrollment. Furthermore, your comment that conservatives have been "purged" is utter nonsense, as conservative professors in the social sciences are common and indeed very popular (Niall Ferguson, Victor Davis Hansen, Tom Sowell, etc). It's pretty clear you have no idea how a university department functions let alone how a university is run from the financial and pedagogic side of things. It's laughable to hear someone attack the whig-commie-pinko-feminist-marxist-frankfurt school corporatist elites in the gender studies departments (apparently the TRUE ENEMY) on the one hand, and then cite a "heterodox organization" that literally contains commie-pinko WHIG Steven Pinkner on its executive board.
he founding fathers' vision of america, as written into law in the Naturalization Act of 1790, limited citizenship to "Free white persons of good character". So much for that theory.
You fail to mention that the Naturalization Acts were largely the product of Madison and Hamilton's federalist party, representing (initially) the slave owning establishment that favoured a powerful (monarchical) executive and feared foreign intervention in American affairs. This of course is not the entire story. Madison, in particular, was obsessed with reducing factionalism through control of the voting franchise, while both Hamilton and Madison (the latter an actual Virginian Whig, Madison, like George Mason, endorsed gradual abolition) supported the elevation of the US president to a life-time semi-monarchical status as they considered a strong executive essential to over-come to divided states. Part of the initial object of the 1790 act was simply to establish who could hold office in the United States, as John Jay observed to Washington, prior to the naturalization act a foreigner could have theoretically become president. The naturalization acts (which kept extending the number of years required to become a US citizen) during the 1790s, became a tool in part to deny Jefferson's democrats the immigration vote (which overwhelmingly favoured his party). Jefferson (a segregationist), of course, repealed the 1798 act when he was president in 1801. The acts were generally pushed to strengthen the Federalists who were obsessed with the prospect of a future conflict with the European powers. Furthermore, the acts failed to actually restrict immigration, which continued during the entire period. It's worth adding that the concept of naturalization was opposed by such luminaries as (abolitionist) Benjamin Franklin, who the Federalists were lucky died in April 1790. Ultimately there was a legal imperative to resolve the citizenship status of black (former slaves) who had fought for the Revolution during the war, and the supporters of naturalization were responsible for selling out the anti-slave movement, and therefore, were responsible for the survival of slavery in the south until the civil war. As Jefferson pointed out, the March 1790 act was basically unconstitutional, anyway, as the constitution as ratified in April, referred to PEOPLE rather than men, women, white or otherwise. The responsible lawmakers clearly had to walk a fine line between national security, states interests, the concept of liberty, and historical trends. John Jay, a Federalist, and supporter of naturalization, for example, was also an ardent abolitionist and succeeded in abolishing slavery in New York in 1799. Madison, of course, split with the Federalists (as Jefferson had) over the power struggle for US government centralization as Hamilton then Adams took over the party. In 1802 the entire edifice was repealed and replaced by the 1802 Naturalization Law that made major concessions to immigration, although did not change the legal status of blacks, who remained non-citizens until 1868.

What is most amusing is that you consider the naturalization act of 1790 not as part of the complex jockeying for legitimacy and security between the advocates of a strong federal constitution, but rather as evidence that the US has always opposed diversity and immigration. A spectacularly naive misreading of history.

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Re: Debate thread

Post by Giant Killer General »

Melekor wrote:It's amusing that Putnam himself is a liberal, and was so disturbed by his findings that he delayed publication for 6 years until he could "develop proposals to compensate for the negative effects of diversity".
Yea, as switch suggests, I don't think this paper that you are citing is concluding what you think it is. Here is the last paragraph in the conclusion at the end of the paper that kind of sums it up:
Scientific examination of immigration, diversity and social cohesion easily
could be inflamed as the results of research become part of the contemporary
political debate, but that debate needs to be informed by our best efforts to
ascertain the facts. It would be unfortunate if a politically correct progressivism
were to deny the reality of the challenge to social solidarity posed by diversity.
It would be equally unfortunate if an ahistorical and ethnocentric
conservatism were to deny that addressing that challenge is both feasible and
desirable. Max Weber instructed would-be political leaders nearly a century
ago that ‘Politics is a slow boring of hard boards.’ The task of becoming
comfortable with diversity will not be easy or quick, but it will be speeded by
our collective efforts and in the end well worth the effort. One great achievement
of human civilization is our ability to redraw more inclusive lines of
social identity. The motto on the Great Seal of the United States (and on our
dollar bill) and the title of this essay – e pluribus unum – reflects precisely that
objective – namely to create a novel ‘one’ out of a diverse ‘many’.
So in other words, there are definite challenges to diversity that should not be understated or ignored, but the benefits are also still there as well when it succeeds, and so diversity is still a desirable thing to pursue in the end. Also notice how the author alludes to America's inspired founding as a nation of immigrants with its motto on the U.S. seal (it's even in the title of the paper), which appears to support the idea of immigration (and thus also diversity).

You are only looking at the negative side of the paper which focuses on the challenges of diversity, while completely ignoring the other nuanced side that also acknowledges the benefits (a clear indication of confirmation bias). Even if you wanted to say that the paper was arguing that the negative side significantly outweighed the positive (which is definitely arguable, and would beg to question why the author still says diversity is still worthy of pursuit in the end), it is still far from a being a clear-cut conclusion strongly in favor of your perspective. And then on top of that we still have all of these other studies that do have strong conclusions, but in opposition of your perspective as they strongly espouse diversity's benefits, which you would not be able to account for (other than maybe conveniently writing it off as liberal academic bias).
Melekor wrote:But diversity of culture, skin colour, gender, etc are not the same thing as diversity of thought and experience.
This is another point of disagreement. They may not be entirely the same thing, but clearly culture, ethnicity, gender, other traits of identity influence your thoughts. Diversity of culture is a subset of diversity of thought. So diversity of culture also influences diversity of thought.
Melekor wrote: For example, as a marine, how effective do you think your squad would have been if half the guys didn't speak english? How about if some of them were muslim fundamentalists that refused to take orders from a female officer? Extreme examples yes, but they should make the point crystal clear. Smaller culture differences would lead to smaller conflicts, but still adding friction.
So yea, these extreme examples are not really proving anything. You are taking an absolutist view of the world where if you can just find 1 extreme example on the fringe, then it must hold true throughout for everything else (or at least in proportionate degrees). The world does not obviously work this way on almost anything, so the point is not crystal clear. Again, you only look at the challenges but ignore the benefits (or at least compartmentalize the benefits by saying diversity of "thought" is different than "culture" somehow). This is some mental jiu-jitsu / gymnastics going on here, really stretching far to try and rationalize this.
Melekor wrote: Actually the military is actually the best possible example of inter-ethnic cooperation, because the military explicitly breaks down individual identities during training, and replaces them with a strong military identity. I'm sure you know all about this. Ooh Rah and such. Those who don't want this either don't join in the first place or end up quitting. This is not at all what happens with economic migrants that often end up in ethnic enclaves and on welfware with little incentive to integrate.
So did you just concede that there are benefits to cultural diversity as well, you are just suggesting that everyone needs a military bootcamp to be able to achieve said benefits? That would be an interesting exception to the rule in your argument. In any case, I have experienced problems with a lack of diversity both inside and outside the military.

Research aside, what exactly is the end-game of this racial philosophy? Keep all the races separate because we are incapable of tolerating each other? Start building walls not just on the Mexican border but also between interethnic communities as well? Get ready for the upcoming race war? It makes no sense.

You realize you are on the same side of the Nazi's philosophy of maintaining a superior Aryan race, right? I am not trying to call you a Nazi, but doesn't it give you pause when your philosophy agrees (whether in whole or in part) with one of the core aspects of Nazism? Also, you realize we are all going to eventually breed into a single race in the distant future, right? What then?
Melekor wrote:Cultural diversity is essentially irrelevant to technological innovation which is based almost entirely on IQ. And technological innovation is what drives economic growth in the long run.
Yea, another point of disagreement. Many studies would argue that diversity enhances the creativity of teams, which obviously means greater innovation (which is also part of why diversity is becoming so popular in corporations these days). Technological innovation is not based almost entirely on IQ, that is a complete oversimplification. IQ is just one of many factors. Does creativity get perfectly accounted for in IQ scores? Don't you think creativity contributes strongly to innovation?
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Re: Debate thread

Post by BIG KROK V8 SS »

sasper wrote:
BIG KROK V8 SS wrote:
switch wrote:That's not true, Kirk. While career officers do tend to vote Republican (more funding, more opportunities for career advancement), however, enlisted are more likely to vote Democrat. In 2012, serving military personal donated vastly more money to the Obama campaign than to the Romney campaign. Furthermore, you can easily find a number of democrat and republican, veterans, in say, the US congress. Of course, there are other trends, for example, US Navy SEALS tend to be Republicans. On the other hand, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dunford USMC, recently encouraged servicemen and women to stay out of politics to preserve their legitimacy and impartiality. What, exactly, is your point?

It's no secret that Republicans have made an ideological and political issue out of welfare exploitation and transgender. Why is this issue so disproportionately obsessive to the Republican ideologues?
You don't even live in my country. You don't know shit, you pot smoking hippie. Transgender is a mental illness. Because Republicans want law and order in our country and not a bunch of idiots roaming around doing whatever they please. This isn't Brazil.

How's canada doing in the Olympics by the way? LOL

America #1 dominating every event. Michael Phelps is the most dominant athlete since Muhammed Ali. Funny how the rest of the world thinks we are all fat. Canada eats more donuts per year than all of America. What does that tell you?
transgender isnt a mental illness, it's simply men pretending to be women or vice versa. you can chop off your dick all you want, but you'll never grow ovaries, or turn your vagina inside out but you'll never grow sperm. it's just people who are fucked in the head
Politically correct = mental illness
Common man says = fucked in the head

I see your point though. Mental illness is more defined by things that people have trouble controlling. Choosing to dress and act like a woman is just a symptom of a mental illness, and not in itself a prognosis nor should it be.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by BIG KROK V8 SS »

sasper wrote:btw kook you should check the populations of the countries. usa is roughly 330 million. canada is about 30 million. so its not surprising that usa does better than canada in the olympics. you would have to have a sub 60 iq not to understand that

So, that's almost the proportion that China has over the US in terms of population and they aren't beating us. Its just a geographical thing. Canada has way less diversity than the US does. We have athletes that fill every niche there is. Canada is just more focused on winter sports. Look at Russia too.. a rather mediocre showing in the Olympics. How do you explain South Korea? How do you explain that Canada consumes more donuts than the entire US? Your argument is null and void, therefore your IQ must be sub-60. I've tested mine and its ranged from 158-170 depending on the test I've taken.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by BIG KROK V8 SS »

Yeah I don't have enough time to read through all the tl;dr posts on here.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by BIG KROK V8 SS »

Hey sasper. Canada tied with countries like Kazakhstan and Thailand, Iran and New Zealand, and Croatia. LOL
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

Lol, did you even READ the article? it overwhelmingly argues in favour of diversity (and immigration) both medium and long term, with the short term impacts being offset by the benefits.
Yes, more closely than you did. You need to take care to separate the empirical findings from the rhetoric. The author sets out to demonstrate the benefits of diversity, but never ends up doing so.

The cites near the top of the article about immigration/diversity being beneficial do not actually imply that diversity is beneficial (it could be only immigration) and the author comments on this:
"So diversity and immigration are not identical, and in our subsequent, more detailed analyses we will need to make that distinction more explicit and rigorous."

When it comes time to examine the actual data (the hard cold numbers!), all we see are negative correlations:

In areas of greater diversity, our respondents demonstrate:
• Lower confidence in local government, local leaders and the local news media.
• Lower political efficacy – that is, confidence in their own influence.
• Lower frequency of registering to vote, but more interest and knowledge about politics and more participation in protest marches and social reform groups.
• Less expectation that others will cooperate to solve dilemmas of collective action (e.g., voluntary conservation to ease a water or energy shortage).
• Less likelihood of working on a community project.
• Lower likelihood of giving to charity or volunteering.
• Fewer close friends and confidants.
• Less happiness and lower perceived quality of life.
• More time spent watching television and more agreement that ‘television is my most important form of entertainment’.

In the next part, he tries to disprove the hypothesis that diversity is the underlying causal factor for these negative outcomes.

And then conclusion reads as follows:

"In short, we have tried to test every conceivable artifactual explanation for
our core finding, and yet the pattern persists. Many Americans today are
uncomfortable with diversity."

The in the final section he proceeds to give a bunch of anecdotes for why he thinks diversity will turn out to be positive in the long run, despite his actual empirical findings. This is the part describing his "proposals to compensate for the negative effects of diversity" that I mentioned earlier. It's almost entirely data free and lacks the rigor of the earlier parts.


The reason this paper is so great is because it's written by a well respected liberal and cited thousands of times. So it's perfect for people like you guys who probably wouldn't trust other sources. The author puts in a good effort to spin it a bit (which is why you thought it actually had the opposite conclusion on casual reading), but in the end the data don't lie. Of course, the conclusion is completely obvious to anyone with lived experience of high levels of diversity. (Being surrounded by aliens makes people feel alienated. What a total shocker.)
The homogeneous cases the study looked at are generally small, rural, interior towns, rather than bustling coastal metropolises. I would argue that the study's findings actually demonstrate the nature of trust as a product of urbanization rather than diversity itself (an objection the study in fact recognizes!).
The regressions explicitly control for urbanization as a variable ...
"Controlling for education levels, poverty,
urbanization, commuting time, total population (logged), residential mobility
and region, the RGF social capital measure is strongly negatively correlated
with both immigration and ethnic diversity"
Universities are private businesses. They offer whatever courses will generate high revenue and enrollment. [...] It's pretty clear you have no idea how a university department functions let alone how a university is run from the financial and pedagogic side of things.
If you are implying that the courses that students choose to enroll in have any major impact on which researchers get grant money or are able to pass peer review, you might be the one without a clue about how universities function.
Furthermore, your comment that conservatives have been "purged" is utter nonsense, as conservative professors in the social sciences are common and indeed very popular (Niall Ferguson, Victor Davis Hansen, Tom Sowell, etc).
5% conservatives 95% liberals is pretty much purged. the remaining 5% are at least partially in the closet with their beliefs.

Sure you have some celebrity conservatives, doesn't disprove my point. Being a celeb is probably very useful protection in that environment. Read some of the heterodox stuff.
It's laughable to hear someone attack the whig-commie-pinko-feminist-marxist-frankfurt school corporatist elites in the gender studies departments (apparently the TRUE ENEMY) on the one hand, and then cite a "heterodox organization" that literally contains commie-pinko WHIG Steven Pinkner on its executive board.
lolz. Pinker has written books arguing against communism. What you apparently fail to realize is that, at this point, heterodoxy in social science is basically anti marxist by definition.
Melekor
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

Yea, as switch suggests, I don't think this paper that you are citing is concluding what you think it is. Here is the last paragraph in the conclusion at the end of the paper that kind of sums it up
See my reply to him. That paragraph and the entire last section is just a bunch of feel good rhetoric.
But diversity of culture, skin colour, gender, etc are not the same thing as diversity of thought and experience.
This is another point of disagreement. They may not be entirely the same thing, but clearly culture, ethnicity, gender, other traits of identity influence your thoughts. Diversity of culture is a subset of diversity of thought. So diversity of culture also influences diversity of thought.
What I meant is that one type of diversity does not guarantee the other. Just because you got a bunch of different skin colours and genders in the same room doesn't necessarily mean you've got a more effective team than a bunch of all white guys with actually diverse skills. You need to have the kind of diversity that actually matters for what you're doing, not just the kind that you can see with the naked eye.

If I had to bet real money... all else being equal, I'd always bet on companies that only attempt to hire the best people, over companies with race/gender quotas.
So yea, these extreme examples are not really proving anything. You are taking an absolutist view of the world where if you can just find 1 extreme example on the fringe, then it must hold true throughout for everything else (or at least in proportionate degrees). The world does not obviously work this way on almost anything, so the point is not crystal clear.
You never noticed any conflict between cultures in your life? Please get real here. The news has been absolutely chock-full of them recently. Why do you think different cultures exist in the first place? It's because they don't naturally mix together. Most of europe and the middle east used to be part of the Roman empire, and now they're dozens of separate countries with mostly homogenous populations. How can you explain that if multiculturalism and mixing is the most natural or "true" outcome? Were people racist 2000 years ago in a way they aren't now?
you only look at the challenges but ignore the benefits
I'm honestly not aware of any significant benefits of multiculturalism/mass immigration to average people. In the town I come from, there is a lot of "diversity". What this means in practice is it is being taken over by mostly Indians and some other ethnics, and all the white people are gradually leaving for greener pastures. So when the government imports these people, they are implicitly displacing natives. Explain how this policy benefits me and the people that used to live here?
So did you just concede that there are benefits to cultural diversity as well, you are just suggesting that everyone needs a military bootcamp to be able to achieve said benefits? That would be an interesting exception to the rule in your argument. In any case, I have experienced problems with a lack of diversity both inside and outside the military.
No, I was just saying that the military culture overrides the other ones enough that they aren't a huge problem anymore. Plus being in a life and death situation is an incredibly strong incentive for cooperating as much as possible.

If you could integrate all new immigrants as well as the military does that would be great, but then again would that require a culture which is like the military? I wouldn't want to live in a culture that forces me that much.
Research aside, what exactly is the end-game of this racial philosophy? Keep all the races separate because we are incapable of tolerating each other? Start building walls not just on the Mexican border but also between interethnic communities as well? Get ready for the upcoming race war? It makes no sense.
It's pretty simple. Just stop mass importing people from other cultures. The majority doesn't want it, it's pushed by elites. There are already lots of walls internally btw, they are called gated communities - elites often to live in these places to avoid all the diversity they import.
You realize you are on the same side of the Nazi's philosophy of maintaining a superior Aryan race, right? I am not trying to call you a Nazi, but doesn't it give you pause when your philosophy agrees (whether in whole or in part) with one of the core aspects of Nazism?
Japan, Korea, Italy, Portugal, Poland are all nearly purely homogenous, moreso than the US ever was, and keep things that way by their immigration policy. I guess that means they're all Nazi countries? Should they be forced to accept mass immigration?
Also, you realize we are all going to eventually breed into a single race in the distant future, right? What then?
No not really. Unless we blow ourselves up first, the end game is transhumanism and expansion into space. Breeding into a single race is an extremely implausible scenario. There's no incentive to do it, you'd need some kind of central planning to make sure the mixing happened evenly and it would take thousands of years to accomplish. Maybe if every baby was genetically engineered to be the same "race" that would be more plausible, though not by much.
Cultural diversity is essentially irrelevant to technological innovation which is based almost entirely on IQ. And technological innovation is what drives economic growth in the long run.
Yea, another point of disagreement. Many studies would argue that diversity enhances the creativity of teams, which obviously means greater innovation (which is also part of why diversity is becoming so popular in corporations these days).
I would be very curious to see exactly what sort of "creativity" you get out of having diverse skin color or ethnicity that you can't get from good old fashioned brain-creativity. The idea that being a certain type of person grants a sort of unique out-of-the-box mental ability seems pretty contradictory to standard left wing belief that all these categories of people are mere social constructs. Is the left now saying that different races have brain diffences?

In terms of culture, clearly different cultures have very different ways of thinking about certain things. But these things tend to pertain to society, morals, traditions etc. That's precisely why you get problems by mixing them. I'm highly skeptical that these different habitual thought patterns have significant bearing on how people operate in highly abstracted fields where real innovation is happening. Advanced science, engineering, and so on. When people operate in these realms, it is its own culture. There is no such thing as muslim engineering, african machine learning, or transgender astrophysics. If you are "thinking like a feminist" you are not simultaneously "thinking like a mathematician" by definition because there is zero relevance between those things.

Actually I would argue that culture is more related to how you behave when you're not thinking, not being creative.
Technological innovation is not based almost entirely on IQ, that is a complete oversimplification. IQ is just one of many factors. Does creativity get perfectly accounted for in IQ scores? Don't you think creativity contributes strongly to innovation?
There's a theory called the threshold hypothesis which says they are pretty correlated up to a threshold around 120 or 130, after which the correlation weakens a lot.

95% of people are below 125 so for most people IQ and creativity should be quite correlated.
Giant Killer General
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Giant Killer General »

Melekor wrote:See my reply to him. That paragraph and the entire last section is just a bunch of feel good rhetoric.
Okay so, like I said before. One article (that is hardly a clear conclusion in agreement with your perspective) still does not account for the many more other published studies that are clearly against your perspective. so what makes you think to cherry pick one study that you then feel the need to interpret in whatever way that reinforces your prior worldview? You just want to ignore all of the other studies?
Melekor wrote:What I meant is that one type of diversity does not guarantee the other. Just because you got a bunch of different skin colours and genders in the same room doesn't necessarily mean you've got a more effective team than a bunch of all white guys with actually diverse skills. You need to have the kind of diversity that actually matters for what you're doing, not just the kind that you can see with the naked eye.
Okay so if you are conceding that there is a correlation between culture and thought then I don't see what the point is you were trying to make if diversity of races / culture can influence diversity of thought. Nobody is saying they are 100% the same thing, but also nobody is saying it is 0% the same thing. They are partially connected. Again, it is not an absolutist view. It is a nuance one.
Melekor wrote:If I had to bet real money... all else being equal, I'd always bet on companies that only attempt to hire the best people, over companies with race/gender quotas.
Nobody said anything about quotas or affirmative action or anything else. Those are duct-tape solutions. The real core solution would be to ensure everyone has access to the same quality education from birth no matter where they live or what background they come from so that everyone has equal opportunities. Yes, just based on merit is fine. But the point is that some run the opposite direction and hire based on whoever looks and acts like them, that isn't based on merit either.
Melekor wrote:The news has been absolutely chock-full of them recently. Why do you think different cultures exist in the first place? It's because they don't naturally mix together. Most of europe and the middle east used to be part of the Roman empire, and now they're dozens of separate countries with mostly homogenous populations. How can you explain that if multiculturalism and mixing is the most natural or "true" outcome? Were people racist 2000 years ago in a way they aren't now?
And how do you explain the fact that diversity continues to increase around the globe? Of course there was less mixing of cultures back when everyone traveled by horse. We are in the globalization era now, are we not? You really think the mixing trend is not going to continue?

Again you keep emphasizing "challenges" with diversity which only looks at one side of the coin, ignoring the benefits. Nobody said that if you took a poll of people that they wouldn't say they weren't uncomfortable sometimes with diversity. But that is not the same thing as saying that diversity has no benefits. I bet the overwhelming majority of people were uncomfortable with desegregation in the pre-civil rights era. Does that mean we should have never attempted to to desegregate given your logic? Are you suggesting going back to a segregationist society? Furthermore, should we never attempt to do anything that we find difficult to do in life because we are incapable of learning and growing from it? Is it just better to give up because something that is difficult will always remain difficult indefinitely?
Melekor wrote:So when the government imports these people, they are implicitly displacing natives. Explain how this policy benefits me and the people that used to live here?
The policy doesn't benefit you if your worldview is that white people are "your team" and everyone that is not white is on "another team." But for the rest of us who may be more tolerant, we don't view the world in subsections of different teams based on race. We are all on the same team, the humanity team. So it doesn't matter. Also displacement is an inaccurate term since obviously they were not forced to leave and chose to do so on their own free will. If I don't like tall people living next to me, and I move because a tall neighbor moves in, are you going to count that as displacement too?

Also, even if we did somehow 100% stop importing people (ignoring the benefits of having h-1b visas for college students from all around the world, or immigrants who do jobs that Americans are unwilling to do), what do you do with the ones already here? Actually, don't answer that please, it's rhetorical.
Melekor wrote:It's pretty simple. Just stop mass importing people from other cultures. The majority doesn't want it, it's pushed by elites.
According to recent polls this is actually objectively false. The majority are in favor of amnesty, with fewer in favor of deportation (here is just one sample poll). And guess what? The trend continues to move in that direction increasingly so over recent history (as I am sure you will find to be no surprise as the U.S. population continues to get more diverse, especially with an increasing hispanic population). So I guess your side is losing that war huh? Better do a better job of convincing people of your ideas. I'm not sure how the elites managed to convince the public, but I guess you might want to steal some of their strategies.
Melekor wrote:Japan, Korea, Italy, Portugal, Poland are all nearly purely homogenous, moreso than the US ever was, and keep things that way by their immigration policy. I guess that means they're all Nazi countries? Should they be forced to accept mass immigration?
I am sure you understand the difference between simply having a very homogenous population and actually attempting to breed the population a certain way (or even kill off those of some disfavored race) to maintain or increase its homogeneity. All of those countries are relatively open free democracies in terms of their immigration policies, at least relative to Nazi Germany. I don't really need to explain this to you do I?
Melekor wrote:No not really. Unless we blow ourselves up first, the end game is transhumanism and expansion into space. Breeding into a single race is an extremely implausible scenario. There's no incentive to do it, you'd need some kind of central planning to make sure the mixing happened evenly and it would take thousands of years to accomplish. Maybe if every baby was genetically engineered to be the same "race" that would be more plausible, though not by much.
Actually you have this exactly backwards. Mixed-race couples are becoming increasingly common as the culture shifts to be more accepting, as well as just the nature of increasing globalization with technology that increases connectivity (and therefore our availability and opportunity) throughout the world (another thing your philosophy fails to address or account for). Even if we don't all breed down into exactly 1 race, there will certainly be an evolution of races and fewer of them. Yes it would take thousands of years, that's why I said distant future.

It would actually take a central planning to maintain the purity of our current set of races as they are now to prevent any kind of evolution from happening. You would have to disallow race mixing. As you said, there's no incentive to do this so it wouldn't ever happen. Once the bloodline is tainted, it can't ever go back. Are you against mixed-race marriages? That would be awfully anti-individual liberty of you if you were.

Also consider that science shows that having a mixed-race ethnicity actually generally leads to better genetics, among which is the most important kind of improvement: better cognitive skills (here is just one article about this, feel free to look up any of the many others). Our genes actually crave diversity. This also explains the opposite end of the spectrum: why babies born of incest (an extreme lack of diversity) often have genetic deficiencies (and again, going back in history, medieval / ancient societies often placed great emphasis on purity of bloodlines, which turned out to be wrong, clearly).

I guess you will just have to deny the science on that one too then, since it obviously pulls your worldview apart. Talk about a scientific benefit of diversity: it's on the genetic level!

In science, theories are evaluated on their ability to make predictions of the future. In philosophy we can have the same kind of attitude. Your prediction is not so much that the country will swing back to its 1950's mentality and start massive deportations to get us back to a more homogeneous population, because you probably concede that your side is losing the war of ideas on that one (which you rationalize as the general public being brainwashed by some "ruling elites"). Instead, your general prediction is: fine okay, you are going to keep having more immigrants, but just wait and see how that is going to lead to the end of our civilization. So that is the one prediction you cling to - the apocalypse prediction. you have to actually hope for the downfall of the country (or globe) in some way because that is the only way that can possibly validate your point.

My prediction is this: the increasing globalization / diversity / cultural mixing trends will continue. And the world is going to move on just fine with or without you. People are going to learn to adapt and deal with it, as humans always have throughout history.

Time will only tell which one of our predictions is right in the end. But your prediction can do nothing but just keep on waiting (and waiting indefinitely until everyone gives it up if its wrong). In the meantime, it looks like my prediction is being shown to be more and more right as time goes on.
switch
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Re: Debate thread

Post by switch »

What you apparently fail to realize is that, at this point, heterodoxy in social science is basically anti marxist by definition.
For me to fail to realize this I would require some evidence to support your claims.
Sure you have some celebrity conservatives, doesn't disprove my point.
Actually it does.
If you are implying that the courses that students choose to enroll in have any major impact on which researchers get grant money or are able to pass peer review, you might be the one without a clue about how universities function.
Enrolment, student feedback and peer review are all important aspects of research considerations and, indeed, professor salary and tenure review. Since undergraduates and post-graduate students comprise the majority of research students, student enrolment does matter when it comes to grant applications and funding.

Since Melekor's entire argument hinges on a single article by Robert D. Putnam from the Nordic Political Science Association Journal (Scandinavian Political Studies), let's take another, detailed, look at the exact argument and evidence presented therein.

Robert Putnam is Peter and Isabel Malkin Professor of Public Policy at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard university. His writings on the subject of American communities includes, Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community (2000), and Better Together: Restoring the American Community (2003), and recently, Our Kids: The American Dream in Crisis.

In 2006, Putnam gave the Johan Skytte Prize Lecture, "E Pluribus Unum: Diversity and
Community in the Twenty-first Century" which is reproduced as a journal article in the NPSA Journal in 2007.. In this article, Putnam presents evidence that demonstrates that ethnic diversity is one of the correlating factors in the low individual trust thresholds between people living in urban environments in America compared to their small town, ethnically homogenous, rural counterparts. Crucial to Putnam's argument is the concept of "social capital" or the collected networks between individual citizens that enables society to function. Importantly, Putnam concludes that while short-term social capital may be decreased by ethnic diversity (amongst other factors), in the long term, individual citizens "overcome such fragmentation by
creating new, cross-cutting forms of social solidarity and more encompassing identities." The short term impacts produce a stronger more robust civil society in the long run.

This is a very important topic that is significant and of interest to all Americans who study urban geography and the development of the polis and civis in immigrant society. During the 1950s and 1960s the hollowing out and ghettoization of American cities as wage earners (and white collar WASPS) moved to the suburbs had a profound impact on the way American cities were perceived following the Second World War. President Johnson's Keynesian War on Poverty and Model Cities initiatives attempted to provide relief and skills training for disillusioned urban youth impacted by the economic and military crisis of the 1950s and 60s, as income inequality increased and poverty became the state of affairs for millions of Americans living in cities. The scale of the problem and the required solution was so immense, however, that in 1965 the Model Cities problem could only be applied to neighbourhoods of 15,000 people or less. The $390 million dollar program represent only a tiny proportion of funds allocated the overall Housing and Urban Development, and the program was plagued by interdepartmental conflicts. Riots sparked by racial tension (the LA Watts riots of 1965 are a case in point) demonstrated the reaction to ghettoization of urban blacks as white moved to the suburbs. Although the civil rights movement had made political gains for blacks in America, the daily life of impoverished ghettos, and the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. demonstrated that life for blacks in urban America was still dangerous and indeed segregated. School reforms as a result of legal cases brought against segregationist districts produced ongoing tensions throughout the decade. Violent crime rates rose in major urban centres in the 1960s as access to firearms increased and this led to the situation in 1972 when fear of violence in urban centres was highest for impoverished blacks and whites, as the middleclass continued to flee to the suburbs. In 1973 the federal government, in response to a corruption scandal, placed a moratorium on federal low income housing assistance, a situation that was made worse by the 1974 recession (which bankrupted New York in 1975). Black on black crime was prevalent, impoverishments rates were high amongst the elderly, school dropouts, and small businesses in the cities, and in 1971 Nixon terminated the Model Cities program. By 1976 Gerald Ford was in the process of dismantling Johnson's Great Society reforms, and the urban crisis continued unabated. Carter attempted to reverse the 70s decline with his 1978 Urban Policy Report. The findings demonstrated that increasing environmental pollution, aging city infrastructure, and the need to modernize communications, sanitation and transportation had all contributed to the situation as it stood at the beginning of the 1980s. Federal assistance to urban housing and development was further curtailed by Reagan in 1981. By the mid 1970s,t he average income of a family moving to an urban environment was $14,000, (about $65,000s in todays money). The average urban household was earning $12,000 annually (57,000). Welfare recipients were overwhelmingly clustered in the cities. Billions of dollars were spent on infrastructure projects during the 1970s and 1980s to bring the urban societies up to modern technological and energy standards, however, Reagan's 1982 National Urban Policy Report recommended cutting investment in urban renewal so that funds could be reallocated to light industrial developments in the suburbs, this was combined with increased relative taxation on those making less than $10,000 annually, which directly impacted standards of living in the cities (those making more than $80,000 a year received 64 billion in tax cuts). By 1983, 15% of the US population was impoverished (up from 12% in 1978), the vast majority concentrated in the cities. Political power shifted to the suburbs, with the suburban districts controlling 131 seats in Congress in 1975. Transnational market forces in the 1980s and the acceleration of technological change in the form of computerization, xerox and internet communication, revolutionized the business and finance sectors concentrated in the large cities. This trend further pushed blue collar labourers to the margins as American manufacturing was challenged by rising automation and organization in Japan, Europe, and the emerging economies in China and India. New emphasis on service sector labour in the cities and other political-economic transformations (treaties, supranational blocs, changing security situation, etc) produced a relative decline in US manufacturing as outsourcing and competition increased at the global scale. Large financial sectors such as the banking and stock market sectors in New York became even more internationalized as global trade expended.

One result of these changes was the dramatic increase in the size of the "commons" and the opportunities for market exchange within and between cities. Traditional identities rooted in place were devastated by the demographic migrations and diasporas of the 1960s and 70s. Huge urban metropolises, such as London, Seul, Tokyo, Mexico City, New York and Las Angeles became the hubs for international finance and energy markets, with coincidental impact for the urban populations, especially lowerclass unskilled labour, which found the ground shifting beneath its feet as the economy modernized. The new global Complex Interdependence meant that market forces acting in the transnational periphery could radically impact living standards in local neighbourhoods.

So what is Putnam's contribution to this very interesting history of American urban geography? Putnam's research focuses on the way traditional urban linkages have evolved in the new environment: from religion to libraries and industry, to the internet, Putnam has addressed the new urban geography from a number of angles. In his 2003 publication, Better Together: Restoring the American Community, Putnam looks at how local stakeholders have managed to evolve as American urban and rural life transitions. Putnam is particularly interested in the development of trust between individuals and communities, and how those networks of trust are established and maintained. Putnam is a leading advocate of research on the new field of Social Capital, that emerged during the 1990, which attempts to index and explore the immensely complex interrelationships that produce social networks at the local and individual level. Interest in social capital development and growth has generated studies from the UN and World Trade Organization. The essence of the social capital theory is that neighbourhoods produce real standard of living improvements when connections between individuals and community networks are maintained. Naturally, an important qualification for the growth of these networks in urban, sub-urban and rural communities is the development of trust between individual citizens. Social capital is measured without regard to the goals of community, for example, the KKK, or Al Qaeda, notes Putnam, are both examples of successful social capital in that the members share a common outlook and socio-political objectives. More mundane examples are a bowling league, food coop, labour union, and so on. Putnam identifies two social interactions crucial to the development of social capital: social BONDING and social BRIDGING. In the former, social capital is built by intra-group integration and the tightening of bonds between related communities. In the latter, social capital is developed by inter-group linkages as communities and individuals reach out and cooperate with each other. Putnam notes that strong communities will represent both bonding and bridging linkages, as communities exclusively bonded become segregated and insular (he uses the example of Bosnia), whereas pluralist societies, to succeed, require the development of strong bridging social capital. In the second book, Putnam pointed to the example of UPS as an organization that was highly socially bonded (and predominately white and male) in the 1960s, but that successfully diversified and created bridging social capital in the 1990s and 2000s.

It is the latter point that is the essence of Putnam's lecture, that Melekor referenced. As Putnam observes, BONDING capital is easier to develop (as in-groups tend to stick together) than BRIDGING, and although bonding produces short-term benefits, bridging tends to produce longer-term strength in terms of social capital. Putnam states clearly that the linkages involved in any description of social capital are profoundly complex, representing a vast range of influences, from historical trends, market forces, race relations, immigration and emigration, labour organization, religious influence, wealth and poverty, geographical space, crime rates, access to education and so on. Putnam's 2000 book, Bowling Alone: The Collapse and Revival of American Community (2000), explored the disconnection in social capital that occurred in the 1960s, 70s and 80s as a result of some of the trends described above. In this monograph, Putnam concludes that the disconnection was caused mainly by technological transformation, income disparity, urban expansion and sprawl, and generational changes in the american society. Putnam observed that social disintegration was not restricted to urban centres, but was in fact increasing in the homogenous suburban developments as well. Putnam cited findings that civil engagement was falling across the board, not only in the urban but also in the rural communities. "Virtually no corner of American society has been immune to this anticivic contagion. It has affected men and women; central cities, suburbs, and small towns; the wealthy, the poor, and the middle class; blacks, whites, and other ethnic groups; people who work and those who don't; married couples and swinging singles; North, South, both coasts, and the heartland." (p. 247). Putnam notes that age and education seem to be the major correlating factors: older people are more generally likely to be socially engaged than the youth. (p. 249). Clearly, one of the factors that produced this trend, is the questioning of state legitimacy by the youth. The Cold War greatly damaged state prestige and legitimacy, in a fashion similar to what happened during the First World War, and this process was then compounded by environmental degradation, increased income inequality, and urban decay during the second half of the 20th century in America. Obviously economic crisis and political corruption further reduced trust thresholds amongst the population in general (who would trust the government after the Pentagon Papers, Watergate, let alone, Snowden?). The older, more trusting generation, is also significantly less educated than the younger generations. Putnam points to studies that indicate that wealth and financial security became significantly more important for the Generation X and Baby Boomers than any sense of community or environmental engagement during the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Putnam presents a wealth of evidence that supports his case that there is a complex fusion of pressures and social, political, and economic factors that have produced the "less trusting" generation X and Y (the so-called millennials, or "Teflon generation").

So how does Putnam's "Diversity and Community in the Twenty-first Century" fit into this framework and research? Putnam's objective is to integrate the ethnic diversity and immigration debate into the social-capital framework. Putnam states clearly that he believes that immigration will continue in the future, and that the result will be more ethnic diversity in communities. He sees these as a net-positive, as the benefits of diversity are proven by the history of the United States and its enshrined founding principles of individual liberty and diversity of thought and religious freedom and freedom of association. Putnam makes the case that in the short term, the development of social capital is inhibited by immigration and ethnic diversity. The challenge of social bridging is here essential, as "successful immigrant societies create new forms of social solidarity and dampen the negative effects of diversity by constructing new, more encompassing identities." (p. 138-9). Putnam observes that immigration itself is a complex factor in terms of social capital construction, and is clearly not always going to lead to a negative outcome: he points to the example of Canadian immigration to the United States, for example, but also notes that race relations (notably, black-white relations) are not linked to immigration, considering that "the ancestors of most African-Americans have been in the United States longer than the ancestors of most white Americans". (p. 140). Putnam observes that ethnic diversity will continue to increase, even if immigration were completely stopped, due to birthrate demographics. Putnam states that, despite the negative impact of ethnic diversity on social capital, there is also a positive correlation: diversity increases creativity, citing the example of America's Nobel Laureats and National Academy of Science Members, Academy Award movie directors, and others who have accounted for "three to four times as many" awards then native born Americans. He cites examples from business and education that demonstrate that diversity increases creativity. Putnam notes that immigration is "associated with more rapid economic growth" as well. He argues that immigration in general tends to cause an increase in gross national income, despite negative impacts on low-wage native workers. Putnam observes that immigration is critical to prevent a demographic crisis caused by the retirement and aging of the baby boomers.

Putnam now turns to the evidence that immigration and ethnic diversity have a negative impact on social capital. Putnam identifies two major schools of thought on this subject: contact and conflict theories. Contact, he observes, tends to argue that increased integration with diverse ethnicities reduces ethnocentric attitudes and fosters solidarity. Conflict, on the other hand, tends to suggest that diversity produces "out-group distrust and in-group solidarity." Putnam says he believes the evidence supports the conflict theory, and points to a range of studies that suggest that "diversity and solidarity are negatively correlated" in the workplace, in terms of car-pooling, prisoner dilemma games, and the example of the Union Army during the American Civil War, which Putnam contends suffered higher desertion rates in heterogeneous units (in terms of age, hometown, occupation). Putnam now gets to the heart of his thesis: "Advocates of the conflict and contact theories clearly disagree about the balance of the empirical evidence, but in their shared focus on ethnocentric attitudes, they share one fundamental assumption - namely that in-group trust and out-group trust are negatively correlated. I believe this assumption is unwarranted...". Putnam's absolutely critical point here is the distinction, again, between BONDING and BRIDGING social capital. He notes that academics tend to assume that the two exist in a zero-sum arrangement, where if a group has a high in-group bonding value, it must therefore have a poor out-group bridging value and vice versa. Putnam is utterly unequivocal that this is not the case. He states clearly: "... high bonding might well be compatible with high bridging, and low bonding with low bridging," thus, "in the United States... whites who have more non-white friends also have more white friends."

Putnam takes to task the empirical studies of in-groups vs out-group relations, arguing that it is a mistake to assume that there is an inherent negative correlation between in-group/out-group distinction, so out-group attitudes might not necessarily be a reflection of ethnocentrism, likewise, in-group attitudes might not be a reflection of xenophobia. Putnam now proposes his "constrict theory" model, where he intends to demonstrate that diversity can produce a reduction in both in-group and out-group solidarity. The survey this thesis is based on is the Social Capital Community Benchmark Survey conducted in 2000, in which 30,000 were surveyed, as well as 3,000 nationally representative individuals from 41 various urban, rural and suburban communities. Putnam notes that the locations selected represent broad variations in size, economic profile, region, education, and other demographic and geographic factors. Significantly, for this lecture, he is interested in the variation in ethnic diversity in the cities, from Los Angeles and San Francisco "among the most ethnically diverse human habitations in history," to rural South Dakota "95% white". Putnam selected the 2000 survey because it coincided with a national census, providing additional socio-economic data for analysis. Putnam begins by describing the ethnicity trust index from large metropolitan areas and small homogenous rural locations. At first the findings, which seem to correlate to "low trust" in the urban centres, is taken as evidence in support of Conflict theory, but Putnam states the situation is more complicated than that. Putnam argues that the evidence suggests that homogenous rural communities are inherently more trusting than heterodox urban areas, regardless of ones ethnicity. People in diverse communities (mainly, large cities) simply do not trust anyone as much as people in homogenous suburbs or rural communities. The nuance that Putnam is demonstrating is that "social isolation" (as correlated to trust) is more prevalent in diverse communities (nominally, large cities), than in homogeneous suburbs or "rural west virginia". Putnam then goes on to note the correlation between areas of ethnic diversity and other trends, notably, "less happiness and lower perceived quality of life," and "less expectation that others will cooperate to solve dilemmas of collective action," amongst others. Interestingly, Putnam also observes that heterozygous communities tend to be more politically engaged and educated, although less likely to vote. It is very clear that Putnam is not suggesting that diversity is the absolute cause for these effects, but rather is one amongst many factors that contributes to the decline in social capital in American communities since the Second World War.

Putnam goes on to add that diversity did not effect all dimensions of social capital. He cites the examples of religious activity, which he observes is "essentially uncorrelated with diversity," one imagines appreciation for professional sports, could be another example (the bowling league). Putnam reemphases that aspects of political engagement correlate positively to diversity. He makes it clear that diversity is not the cause of racial conflict, but rather, seems to be a factor involved in causing decline in social capital (as measured by trust), "regardless of the colour of their skin"- a state of affairs that also correlates with the decline of America's urbanites in the late 20th century. Putnam now explores some of the objections to this theory, notably, the point i've been making about the correlation between low trust and urbanism and urban decline in general (with higher rates of poverty, lower educational standards, etc). Putnam uses the census data to explore these correlations. Putnam observes that, yes, in fact, "age (younger people less trusting), ethnicity (blacks and Hispanics are less trusting) and socioeconomic class (the educated, the well-off, and homeowners are more trusting)." This is significant in that cities, since the 1960s, have been largely occupied by young, diverse, middle and lower-middle class rentiers, who, according to the research, are likely to be low-trusting compared to their rural and suburban counterparts. Interestingly, though, Putnam feels the evidence is not restrictive to age. In addition to "ethnic diversity" therefore, Putnam proposes that crime and poverty (and income inequality) be taken in account, and he argues that there is a clear correlation between all three factors (especially in an urban environment after 1980). Putnam acknowledges on page 155 that the study is not complete, and that he was restricted by budget considerations from conducting the truly comprehensive and detailed study that would have further explored the distinctions between ethnicities, and socio-economic status (p. 156) in heterogeneous societies: "people who live in neighbourhoods of greater economic inequality also tend to withdraw from social and civi life." (p. 157). Putnam is unambiguous that diversity is a correlative effect, but not contingent on, economic inequality.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by sasper »

libertarians are the only ones with atlas half an ounce of sense liberals and conservatives are all fuckwitted assholes.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by sasper »

sasper wrote:libertarians are the only ones with atlas half an ounce of sense liberals and conservatives are all fuckwitted assholes.
fuckiing autocorrect. i think you know what I'm saying
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Re: Debate thread

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holy shit this thread needs a tldr
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Or at least some pictures to keep my interest.
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Re: Debate thread

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BIG KROK V8 SS wrote:Or at least some pictures to keep my interest.
Image
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Melekor »

Giant Killer General wrote:Okay so, like I said before. One article (that is hardly a clear conclusion in agreement with your perspective) still does not account for the many more other published studies that are clearly against your perspective. so what makes you think to cherry pick one study that you then feel the need to interpret in whatever way that reinforces your prior worldview? You just want to ignore all of the other studies?
So because I only linked you one paper, only one paper exists? I think you only linked one paper on your side too, I guess there is only one paper arguing in favor of diversity.

google "negative effects of diversity" in quotes - 178,000 results.
And how do you explain the fact that diversity continues to increase around the globe? Of course there was less mixing of cultures back when everyone traveled by horse. We are in the globalization era now, are we not? You really think the mixing trend is not going to continue?
Diversity is not increasing around the globe, just in western countries because of mass immigration. The fraction of mixed race people globally is shrinking due to the massive growth rates of india, africa and south asia.
The policy doesn't benefit you if your worldview is that white people are "your team" and everyone that is not white is on "another team." But for the rest of us who may be more tolerant, we don't view the world in subsections of different teams based on race. We are all on the same team, the humanity team. So it doesn't matter. Also displacement is an inaccurate term since obviously they were not forced to leave and chose to do so on their own free will. If I don't like tall people living next to me, and I move because a tall neighbor moves in, are you going to count that as displacement too?
You think ethnic minorities see themselves as being on "team humanity"? Keep dreaming. Most ethnic minorities are massively more ethnocentric than whites are. Perhaps I naturally understand this better than you do because I'm half jewish and jews are arguably the most ethnocentric group. It doesn't help that the left has explicitly embraced multiculutralism and ethnic identity politics, which means that assimilation is barely even a goal anymore.

And what determines benefit (or lack of benefit) to me is not my "worldview", but rather the behavior of these other groups, and objectively the behavior affects me net negatively. Your idea that I need to adjust my worldview to view a negative as a positive is advocating ethnomasochism.

"If only your brain were correctly wired, all your pain would be pleasure" -- says left wing man to right wing man.
Again you keep emphasizing "challenges" with diversity which only looks at one side of the coin, ignoring the benefits. Nobody said that if you took a poll of people that they wouldn't say they weren't uncomfortable sometimes with diversity. But that is not the same thing as saying that diversity has no benefits.
As I said I am not aware of ANY significant benefits to average people. All people ever talk about is ethnic restaurants - as if it is impossible to cook a meal that isn't traditionally from one's own culture, and we must physically import foreigners to do it for us.

There is a pretty good argument for importing some high-skilled labour on a temporary basis (i.e. H-1B visas), but this is not even close to the same thing as mass immigration.
According to recent polls this is actually objectively false. The majority are in favor of amnesty, with fewer in favor of deportation
Not the same thing. People are opposed to deportation because they think it's cruel (which it is, in the short term), but they oppose mass immigration.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/8815/nearly- ... eased.aspx
~50% support immigration decrease.
~80% oppose immigration increase.
I'm not sure how the elites managed to convince the public, but I guess you might want to steal some of their strategies.
Elites didn't convince the public, they just do what they want while no one is paying attention or if they can get away with it. Same thing they always try to do with trade deals like TPP.
Also consider that science shows that having a mixed-race ethnicity actually generally leads to better genetics, among which is the most important kind of improvement: better cognitive skills
I guess that explains why Brazil, the country with the most race mixing, also has the highest average IQ in the world, highest life expectancy and one of the best standards of living. Oh wait... that's actually Japan, the least diverse country in the world.

This argument doesn't stand up to the most cursory examination of reality. It's well understood that children tend to have (on average) traits which are the average of their parents, plus a regression to the mean effect. This is exactly what you would expect since the child has 1/2 DNA from each parent... and so-called "hybrid-vigor" mostly applies in cases of severe inbreeding, like with dogs or some royal families (lol)
In science, theories are evaluated on their ability to make predictions of the future. In philosophy we can have the same kind of attitude. Your prediction..
I don't think I ever laid out my prediction. Here it is: if immigration in the US continues on its current trend, as its population comes to more closely resemble that of countries like Brazil or Mexico, so too will every other statistic that describes the country (standard of living, mean IQ, median income, life expectancy, murder rate, size of government, corruption and so on).

The reasoning behind this is obvious: countries are their population. There is nothing magic about american soil that transforms new immigrants into "americans". You just get a mixture of populations. Institutions that were a fixture of one culture eventually decay and disappear under another.

This is a prediction for the next 50 years. Beyond that I think that technology like genetic engineering and cybernetics will be so important that we can no longer extrapolate from historical population dynamics.
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Re: Debate thread

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europe is being INVADED by muslims.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by Giant Killer General »

Melekor wrote:So because I only linked you one paper, only one paper exists? I think you only linked one paper on your side too, I guess there is only one paper arguing in favor of diversity.
This just seems to further demonstrate how content you are to remain blind to any opposing viewpoints. You don't even care that I just alerted you to some overwhelming evidence that disproves your viewpoint. In contrast, I am genuinely interested to see if there are any credible claims / conclusions against my viewpoint, because I am only on the side of wherever the truth lies. I don't feel any need to continue to attempt to prove myself right. Did you even look at the paper I cited to you? Probably not.

But if you ever want to come out of your ideological hole, then look at at any of these:

http://www.diversityweb.org/digest/w97/research.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... s-smarter/
https://tcf.org/content/report/how-raci ... -students/
http://web.stanford.edu/~hakuta/www/pol ... apter5.pdf

Or take your pick:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=be ... 3&as_vis=1
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... 0diversity
Melekor wrote:google "negative effects of diversity" in quotes - 178,000 results.
Okay if you want to use this as a metric (as unreliable as it may be), wouldn't you think to also attempt to google the opposite search result for a fair comparison? Here, I'll do it for you:

"negative effects of diversity" - 3,520,000 results
"positive effects of diversity" - 126,000,000 results

Again, another perfect indication of your confirmation bias, always ignoring the other side of information that doesn't support your point. And again, nobody said that there was never any negative effects, just that the positive effects are overwhelmingly bigger in the long-term. The number of search results appears to support that.
Melekor wrote:You think ethnic minorities see themselves as being on "team humanity"? Keep dreaming.
And you claim to know what entire ethnicities are thinking. Oh I can't find a single minority that would agree on my point? Really? Keep dreaming yourself. You think in such absolutist terms of the world.
Melekor wrote:And what determines benefit (or lack of benefit) to me is not my "worldview", but rather the behavior of these other groups, and objectively the behavior affects me net negatively.
I could just as easily judge people by their body types and say all overweight people must be lazy, or all athletic people must be dumb, and that their lazy, dumb behavior affects me negatively so I don't want to live around them. So given the myriad different ways we can stereotype people and judge them, why would you only look at race? It seems like an odd obsession with just one factor, when there are tons of factors that influence a person's behavior, culture, etc. other than just race.
Melekor wrote:As I said I am not aware of ANY significant benefits to average people.
You are not aware because you choose not to listen or be open to any contrary information. Try looking at anything I linked above, or do a little bit of your own research in an open manner and maybe you can become aware.
Melekor wrote:Not the same thing. People are opposed to deportation because they think it's cruel (which it is, in the short term), but they oppose mass immigration.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/8815/nearly- ... eased.aspx
~50% support immigration decrease.
~80% oppose immigration increase.
You are trying so hard to dodge this because it is such a bad position for your argument. First of all, you linked an article from 2003. Why on earth would you take such old data? Another indication of your bias.

Here is a more recent article, using your same source:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/184529/suppo ... aign=tiles

-40% support maintaining current immigration levels
-25% actually want to increase immigration levels
-34% want to decrease immigration levels

And the trend over the last decade has been increasing support in favor of immigration, decreased support of anti-immigration policy.

Second of all, supporting the current immigration levels is hardly being against mass-immigration. That is being pro-immigration if anything, since I am sure you are against the current immigration levels as well and you concede that we currently have mass-immigration. So even with your old article's data, you still lose. Even back then, only 47% wanted decreased immigration, while 50% wanted the current level of immigration or more. No idea how you are misinterpreting this to support your suggestion that the majority of the public was ever against mass-immigration. The bias is overwhelming.
Melekor wrote:Elites didn't convince the public, they just do what they want while no one is paying attention or if they can get away with it. Same thing they always try to do with trade deals like TPP.
You were the one trying to claim that the majority of the public was on your side, as if your position had the support of the people. As I just said, the polls show that is objectively false. If you want to think the elites are doing everything from behind the scenes, fine, but don't pretend your ideas have the majority of public support. They don't. And we live in a democracy, so good luck trying to enact any real change without that public support.
Melekor wrote:I guess that explains why Brazil, the country with the most race mixing, also has the highest average IQ in the world, highest life expectancy and one of the best standards of living. Oh wait... that's actually Japan, the least diverse country in the world.
Wow you try so hard to warp anything into your view. Nobody said it was the only factor. Just that is is a positive factor. Yea..let's just ignore the massive differences in wealth and education in attempting to make a made-up point. Again, this is just another instance of your overly-simplified, one-issue focused, and absolutist view of the world. I just showed you an article about the science. So you are just going to cling to your own made-up point and completely ignore addressing why the science would contradict you? Are you then suggesting you are ignoring the science on this one? So you are anti-science then? If so, there is no point in us in debating anymore. I might as well be debating a religious fundamentalist. There has to be some shred of intellectual honesty in the face of scientific evidence.
Melekor wrote:The reasoning behind this is obvious: countries are their population.
It must be obvious to you. Not so much for the rest of us. I look forward to seeing how much your prediction fails long-term.

You also conveniently dodged several of my questions:
Giant Killer General wrote: I bet the overwhelming majority of people were uncomfortable with desegregation in the pre-civil rights era. Does that mean we should have never attempted to to desegregate given your logic?
Are you suggesting going back to a segregationist society?
Furthermore, should we never attempt to do anything that we find difficult to do in life because we are incapable of learning and growing from it?
Is it just better to give up because something that is difficult will always remain difficult indefinitely?

Are you against mixed-race marriages? That would be awfully anti-individual liberty of you if you were.
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Re: Debate thread

Post by sasper »

BIG KROK V8 SS wrote:europe is being INVADED by muslims.
only some countries in europe. i lived in czech republic for 10 years and muslims are almost universally despised there. they only represent about 0.1% of the population (thank god)
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Re: Debate thread

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Reliance on academia is not safe.
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