GKG Tagset

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 19:20

Just for argument's sake, if you made a molotov cocktail would it go out before it hit its target because of some rain?

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 06 Mar 2013, 19:36

http://tain.totalcodex.net/items/show/gkg-tagset

its on the tain now

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 06 Mar 2013, 22:31

Loving this rage on my idea to remove duds from the game.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 07 Mar 2013, 01:20

GiantKillerGen wrote:gambling is not much of a skill, and i didn't even talk about gambling, I talked about rolling a dice. Since you want to weigh in then answer my question, how do you skillfully roll a dice?

In gambling there may be some way to affect or at least play the house's odds. So that analogy is incorrect as there is no way for the player to affect the probability of a dud. The only way they can do that is by waiting for heavier rain or snow on the very few and specific weather maps, which I already mentioned nobody ever does, ever.

With the condom breaking, that is physics, you can affect the probability of that.

All these analogies where you can skillfully affect the probability of something just like bounces, but you can't do that in duds. All of those are invalid examples.

I was agreeing with you, idiot.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » 07 Mar 2013, 02:34

removing duds seems like a good idea. would like to try out this plug when summer comes.

more excited about balancing UT costs.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Mar 2013, 04:41

you are using heavy sarcasm on an internet forum wwo, calm the fuck down, holy shit.

Cutard · Post by **Cutard** » 07 Mar 2013, 19:57

A bad player engages in a melee fight they would normally lose, betting on the chance that their pus doesn't dud, it does and they lose even more health turning their melee away and getting hit for free while also giving up a big pus. A good player doesn't engage in this melee fight, they've roughly calculated the chance that the pus will fail in some way and the ingame situation doesn't call for a risk like that yet, lets do something else that's more productive.

Another more direct example: all the ghols on both teams on Acts have used their big pus besides yours, they have a deep orange FG while your team's is relatively healthy, you have an open shot on their FG with a big pus but they also have numerous empty ghols around that will undoubtedly snag it if it fails, do you throw it?

This is called risk analysis, something that humans (and a vast majority of myth players) are notoriously bad at.

Not that I seriously care if you make a plugin removing duds.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Mar 2013, 20:26

well thanks cu for rearing your ugly head out of hiding and contributing something instead of just trolling. Of course I still don't agree, when I think of that kind of risk analysis in those situations (situations which are very specific by the way) I think of bounces which are much more probable to happen, not duds (which a certain bounce that misses entirely might as well be the same a dud just no one can grab it). But thanks for the contribution.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 07 Mar 2013, 20:52

It seems like people think differently when assessing situations, particularly with duds.

Maybe this could become a myth community poll

Cutard · Post by **Cutard** » 07 Mar 2013, 21:02

It isn't just thinking about the pus duding, hence "pus will fail in some way." The first example can happen in virtually any light oriented game, as pus ghols are a completely dominating factor to begin with. Change a few aspects of the second example and I can recall that scenario happening many times.

As a sort of a thank you towards your recognition of my great trolling contribution over the years I offer this:

Have a plugin which introduces different quality wights, and trade value to go along with them. For example, a "Pristine Wight" will cost you 6 points but the pus will very rarely dud, whereas a "Jaws 3D Wight" will cost you only 2 but there's a very high likelihood of the pus failing. Maybe even include the possibility of a healed Wight providing three pus, or a catastrophic failure during healing and the wight blows up. Go all renwood with it.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 07 Mar 2013, 21:09

yea see i just don't like any kind of randomization that the player can't influence. I would instead appeal to the philosophy of "make it less accurate" but less accurate is still something the player can manage with skill. so I would do pus that has a greater probability of bouncing more (i.e. less accurate) or some such like that. I still like my version of the wights though.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 07 Mar 2013, 21:40

Cutard wrote:or a catastrophic failure during healing and the wight blows up.

This is a great idea.

Also on my redesign wish list, is instead of guaranteed 2 pus from a healed wight, it could range from 1-3: 25% - 1 65% - 2 10% - 3.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 08 Mar 2013, 20:43

GKG-

I guess since you don't take duds into consideration when engaging then they're a game design flaw. Never thought of that. Others should definitely echo what you say makes the game better, though, since you've won a couple MWCs, and that by itself is qualification enough for making sweeping generalizations about how everyone sees or should see the game.

The argument "don't knock it till you try it" is all that needs to be said, really. Trying to convince everyone that this could be settled logically is not rational in my view, because games are not played for rational reasons. Your best bet is just to demonstrate that your way leads to more fun. I'm not opposed to that possibility, but your way of soliciting consensus may lead to unnecessary dissent.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 08 Mar 2013, 21:01

don't care. i wanted to see the view points on this, and I got them. this conversation is pretty much over, nothing new or compelling is being added at this point. I wanted to see if it would confirm my thinking and it did. mission accomplished.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 08 Mar 2013, 21:22

Oh so you did care, but now you don't. Good to know.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 08 Mar 2013, 21:33

i don't care about your point about me creating supposed "dissent."

off you go now LN.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 08 Mar 2013, 22:05

One thing that's amusing is your pathological need to have the last word, GKG.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 09 Mar 2013, 04:29

just correcting whatever misinterpretation you had. please dig more into my pathology over an internet forum though, it's so amusing.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 09 Mar 2013, 05:23

NewMutator wrote:One thing that's amusing is your pathological need to have the last word, GKG.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 09 Mar 2013, 07:15

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 09 Mar 2013, 07:43

I loled

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 09 Mar 2013, 17:44

Hmm it just occurred to me that if you're going to remove duff duds maybe you could add an option to purposefully throw a dud? It actually doesn't make sense that duffs are apparently unable to not light their molotovs, and this feature would preserve some of the hilarious dynamics of propelling duds at people with various explosives.

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 10 Mar 2013, 00:51

I'd also like to see the return of bottles getting deflected, not detonated, by fetch lightning.

SamTheButcher · Post by **SamTheButcher** » 10 Mar 2013, 11:25

Milk Man wrote:Hmm it just occurred to me that if you're going to remove duff duds maybe you could add an option to purposefully throw a dud? It actually doesn't make sense that duffs are apparently unable to not light their molotovs, and this feature would preserve some of the hilarious dynamics of propelling duds at people with various explosives.

I mentioned the same thing about a week ago. No one responded to it so guess no one else likes the idea. I think it is a good idea for the same reasons you mentioned. Only thing a duff could totally cover the ground around a flag or whatever with duds. It may not be a bad thing. It would be cool in like a duff duel to throw a dud then bounce that dud with a lit bottle.

c⁄J⁄Iılk c⁄J⁄Iån ◊§t◊ · 11 Mar 2013, 00:57

Not to mention it would better enable massive 18 ghol pus bombs with a few cleavers and body parts thrown in for dramatic effect

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 11 Mar 2013, 18:35

wwo wrote:I'd also like to see the return of bottles getting deflected, not detonated, by fetch lightning.

that's a can of worms i'm not sure you should open. while i am one of the biggest fans of carpet bombing... things can get out of hand in a hurry.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 11 Mar 2013, 20:01

adrenaline wrote: that's a can of worms i'm not sure you should open. while i am one of the biggest fans of carpet bombing... things can get out of hand in a hurry.

Yeah and if a stated goal of this tagset is to reduce randomness, reintroducing CB is not exactly a way to do that...

dac · Post by **dac** » 11 Mar 2013, 20:30

cb has nothing to do with randomness when you're good at it

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 11 Mar 2013, 20:44

I could probably find a way to make a CB tagset for morts/pus/bottles, just like I could make a duds tagset

wwo · Post by **wwo** » 11 Mar 2013, 21:15

Adren: I didn't add in that I'm pretty sure the deflection distance can be adjusted. If it were greatly reduced, like say no more than 2x the lightning range itself, I think it'd be less of a factor. I wonder if there's a flag for the lightning that controls whether they can stack power, so that 3 fetch wouldn't deflect further than 1. So, cb but with a lot of nerfing.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 11 Mar 2013, 22:30

dac wrote:cb has nothing to do with randomness when you're good at it

It has a little skill, but it's still quite random and not really that hard to do. It's not even as accurate as gens which only a few players seem to be particularly accurate with. But hey, happy to be proven wrong by someone able to consistently hit a small-ish target (say a single unit or a few clumped tight) with CB in a film or similar (can use an old client).

Regardless I'm not really a fan... doesn't do a lot to add depth to the game-play. Even the current fetch spamming/sniping game is more interesting than CB ever was IMO. I'm not so much opposed to deflection when defending against bottle throws, but when using it to CB it's a bit silly and I see no reasonable way to differentiate the two without being arbitrary.

On the topic of fetch and projectiles though, it seems like maybe if they didn't detonate lock shots they'd be a bit more rock/paper/scissors than their current "strictly better than most things" status on most dark maps. Of course bumping their UT cost sufficiently high is one solution, but there are alternatives.

dac · Post by **dac** » 11 Mar 2013, 23:53

targetted cb is very possible and is a skill.

but i agree that generally it goes against the spirit of myth (as does the myrk giant!)

as for deflections, if you could deflect only enemy projectiles that would be awesome. there was a lot of skill to 1x1 fetch vs dwarf on tfl

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 12 Mar 2013, 00:25

dac wrote: as for deflections, if you could deflect only enemy projectiles that would be awesome. there was a lot of skill to 1x1 fetch vs dwarf on tfl

I agree it's way cooler when it's duels like that. I think this could be made to work mechanically (it must already track projectile ownership for stuff like damage attribution) but the issue is that it gets a bit "arbitrary". Does it affect allies' projectiles too? What about duds that land and then are relit/rethrown? And some people would probably complain that it's a bit odd that your own projectiles are somehow "special". Interesting idea though.

PS: Myrk giant is definitely silly, although I'm hoping in GKG's tagset with removal of throw it's more interesting in matchups.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » 12 Mar 2013, 19:42

punkUser wrote:Yeah and if a stated goal of this tagset is to reduce randomness, reintroducing CB is not exactly a way to do that...

punkUser wrote:It has a little skill, but it's still quite random and not really that hard to do. It's not even as accurate as gens which only a few players seem to be particularly accurate with.

noob

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 12 Mar 2013, 19:44

Happy to be proven wrong with a film Aki

dac · Post by **dac** » 12 Mar 2013, 20:13

punkUser wrote:Happy to be proven wrong with a film Aki

will do in the near future.

how far and how accurate exactly do you wnt to see it?

we can cb each other and i'll win 10/10 games.

edit: maybe tonight when i get home, around 10 server time if you're on

browning · Post by **browning** » 12 Mar 2013, 20:49

myrk giant does not go against the spirit of myth, for many it was myth

there are about as many ways to play raid than to play gyre, remove fetch lightning and give them a stab maybe? ;o

par73 · Post by **par73** » 12 Mar 2013, 20:53

browning raises a good point

and maps like grilling grounds dark where fetch can block myrk giant throws are essentially acceptable and usually quite interesting.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 12 Mar 2013, 20:59

dac wrote: how far and how accurate exactly do you wnt to see it?

I'd like to see at least the accuracy that folks can get with the gen (which was my original claim). i.e. about 2x duff range (ish?) and the really good folks can pretty consistently hit single unit targets... say 3/4 times. Anything below that counts as pretty random (certainly more than duds), wouldn't you agree?

dac wrote: we can cb each other and i'll win 10/10 games.

No doubt, I never claimed I personally am any good at CB (or gen for that matter), just that I haven't seen anyone for whom there isn't a large randomness factor involved. Happy to play regardless though heh.

dac · Post by **dac** » 12 Mar 2013, 22:01

2x dorf distance? ez money.

cya tonight if you're on.

i thought you were going to challenge me with cross map trow, which is where the accuracy gets a lot harder.

1 fetch /1 dorf hero, i'll do 3/4 after a warmup game

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 12 Mar 2013, 22:57

dac wrote: i thought you were going to challenge me with cross map trow, which is where the accuracy gets a lot harder.

Heh, well the more the better but since there's no huge objections that I've seen about generals, that seems like a reasonable bar

dac wrote: 1 fetch /1 dorf hero, i'll do 3/4 after a warmup game

Does it have to be a hero curiously, or is it still doable with regular dwarves?

I'll try to hop on tonight; I'm curious now

dac · Post by **dac** » 12 Mar 2013, 23:10

its doable with regular dwarves, but im far less SKILLED with those. rabiez was awesome with them.

i can do dwarf heroes all day long, further proof that its a skill and not just random.

Cutard · Post by **Cutard** » 13 Mar 2013, 00:08

Heh, when did you start playing myth punkuser? If you're saying this and you played TFL when it was a thing then I want to bite your face.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 13 Mar 2013, 00:27

Cutard wrote:Heh, when did you start playing myth punkuser? If you're saying this and you played TFL when it was a thing then I want to bite your face.

I only played a bit of TFL multi. I came in more around M2's time, and immediately preferred M2's multiplayer - ironically - due the increased controllability and reduced randomness

dac · Post by **dac** » 13 Mar 2013, 00:29

jump on if ur home

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 13 Mar 2013, 01:28

On now, school me up

[Edit] Alright dac pretty convincingly demonstrated being able to be at least as consistent at gen range as most folks, so I happily retract my comment

dac · Post by **dac** » 13 Mar 2013, 02:08

SCHOOLED, SIR!

Aki · Post by **Aki** » 13 Mar 2013, 03:23

It was pretty fucking stupid to make a statement about something you know nothing about.

punkUser · Post by **punkUser** » 13 Mar 2013, 03:41

Aki wrote:It was pretty fucking stupid to make a statement about something you know nothing about.

Meh, I was drawing on the experience that I had - namely what I've seen in films and such. Clearly that experience was not representative of the better CBers, but that's why I twice said that I was happy to be proven wrong. I'm not sure how I am to know, a priori, what is possible without having seen it so relying on what I have seen seems reasonable until proven wrong...

So I'm still curious to see some tournament-level CB films though; anyone have links?

Anyways dac demonstrated that it's definitely quite doable to be consistent at gen-like ranges, although obviously as ranges increase it gets more random. That said - as dac pointed out - there's usually only one gen on a map and people probably wouldn't play it if there were lots of them. So while I happily concede the point that at least at gen-like ranges people can pretty consistent and luck is a small factor, I still don't think it's a particularly good direct for gameplay depth (although it's definitely an impressive trick).

It was pretty funny though... of the 5 shots he took at my targets, 4 hit and the 5th would have hit but duded

par73 · Post by **par73** » 14 Mar 2013, 17:15

[youtube]oETADzYpmyg[/youtube]

start at 9:09