Double Elimination Rounds - Schedule (Updated post-DE4)

par73 · Post by **par73** » 11 Jul 2013, 01:16

Ok everyones voice was heard. This week, the top 6 seeded teams will have a bye week.

The bottom 4 seeded teams, Agents, TMNT, TCOX and The Blades, will be playing against each other.

also having added game 5 of WTC vs DEER, the standings have changed a little.

After weighing all the teams by Tier level and bracket schedule, DE scheduling will now look something like this. Notice changes from QR score to DE score being dependent on the performance against teams they played against who were ranked above or below them:

You can find the MWC DE bracket here:
http://challonge.com/mwc13

DE1: (jul 13/14)
Top Bracket:
8th seed (DR) vs 9th seed (TCOX)(Match 2) Fallback Fallback Sunday 2pm server time
other match postponed

DE2: (jul 20/21)
Top Bracket:
7th seed (ULMS) vs 10th seed (The Blades)(Match 1) Scheduled at Sunday 8 am Server time
1st Seed (TMNS) vs TCOX (Match 3) Fallback Sunday 1pm Server Time
2nd Seed (ZOMG) vs M1 Winner (Match 4) Likely Fallback Sunday 2pm Server Time
3rd Seed (AGENTS) vs 6th Seed (DEER) (Match 5) Fallback Sunday 2pm Server Time
4th Seed (TMNT) vs 5th Seed (WTC) (Match 6) Fallback Sunday 4pm Server Time

DE3 : (jul 27/28)x
Bottom Bracket:
TCOX vs The Blades (Match 9) *elimination* Sunday 6am EST TCOX ELIMINATED
ULMS vs DR (Match 10) *elimination* Sunday 1pm EST DR ELIMINATED

Top Bracket:
TMNS vs TMNT (Match 7) Sunday, 2pm EST TMNS TO BB
ZOMG vs Agents (Match 8) Sunday, 4pm ESTZOMG TO BB

Bottom Bracket:)
DEER vs ULMS (Match 13) *elimination* Sunday 4pm EST[/b] ULMS ELIMINATED

DE3BB: (aug 3/4)
WTC vs The Blades (Match 12) *elimination* Saturday 7pm EST

DE4:
Top Bracket finals:
Agents vs TMNT (Match 11) Sunday 4pm EST

bottom bracket:
Match 12 Winner vs ZOMG (Match 14) *elimination* (if WTC wins Sunday 2pm EST, if The Blades wins Sunday 8am EST)
DEER vs TMNS (Match 15) *elimination* Sunday 1pm EST

***THIS WEEKEND***
DE5: (aug 10/11)
Bottom Bracket Semi Finals:
WTC vs TMNS (Match 16) *elimination* Fallback Sunday 2pm EST

Bottom Bracket Finals: (Aug 10/11)

Match 16 Winner vs Agents (Match 17) *elimination* Fallback Sunday 4pm EST

Finals: (aug 17/18)
Match 17 winner vs TMNT (Match 18 Champ match) *elimination*

An extension may be made on the bottom bracket finals, causing the tournament finals to be scheduled on the weekend of the 24/

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 11 Jul 2013, 02:08

Looks good, but your dates are off by a week, this weekend is July 13/14.

Giant Killer General · Post by **Giant Killer General** » 11 Jul 2013, 02:51

Looks like TMNT will never have a chance to rematch Agents again by the look of this DE schedule. Oh well.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 11 Jul 2013, 03:08

See you at Game R or I, both teams are gunna have to play hard to make that game hah!

Honkey · Post by **Honkey** » 11 Jul 2013, 03:31

Did paris pit the 2 teams that combined against each other?

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 11 Jul 2013, 03:35

Weighted QR pools with unweighted seeding is a pretty stupid idea.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 11 Jul 2013, 04:07

ridiculous man... redo the seeding the way dantski posted, this is just nonsense. exactly what myrk said... weighted qr pools SHOULD equal weighted seeding. don't ruin this tournament...

par73 · Post by **par73** » 11 Jul 2013, 05:01

ok new seeding is :
1st. tmns
2nd. zomg
3rd. agents
4th. tmnt
5th. WTC
6th. DEER
7th. ULMS
8th. DR
9th. TCOX
10th. The Blades

Myrk · Post by **Myrk** » 11 Jul 2013, 05:13

that makes way more sense.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 11 Jul 2013, 05:24

Why is ZOMG rated higher than WTC?

par73 · Post by **par73** » 11 Jul 2013, 05:27

Dantski wrote:
with 6,4,2 points added based on tier

tmns 16
zomg 14
agents 13
tmnt 13
wtc 12
deer 12
ulms 10.5
dr 10
TCox 9
blades 1.5

drunken_deer · Post by **drunken_deer** » 11 Jul 2013, 10:41

this is bullshit, not only have you gone back against your word for that stupid game (dont care cause im going to own that fucking gay wtc and watch their team cry) but now all the top tiered teams are being rewarded now for their shitty qr performance.

Oh and to add to that, WTC has harvested half the players off another team rendering one team a forfeit. Bending over to cater for the teams that are crying about their seeding when my team has to face ULMS again, the team we just played before, and then WTC. Exactly the same teams we played other than the blades for our QR. If we beat them because WTC team they are matched up against is a forfeit team bringing them straight into DE3.

edit: looks like the team scheduling has been edited now, so ill just shut up now.

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 11 Jul 2013, 11:17

I hate to say it, but I have to agree a bit here with double D, although I wouldn't have worded it quite the same way... You basically bumped up teams that didn't do well because it was assumed they would do well. While I understand they played harder opponents, I'm led to believe this was done for a reason, much the way a handicap in golf works. By weighting the QR you gave all teams an even footing on being able to get a good seeding in the tournament, you made it a level playing field, which I feel was good. What was the point of weighting the QR if you are just going to give the supposed good teams a higher seed regardless of anything that happened in the QR. I understand where people are coming from on "better" teams, but you need to look at both sides of this issue.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 11 Jul 2013, 12:22

what don't you 2 idiots understand about weighted pools? he isn't "rewarding" anyone... the very fact they are in the top tier guarantees them a higher seed.

Look at it like this: if DEER played TMNT TMNS and Agents, they'd be 0-3 right now and in the exact same spot.

Paris isn't going back on his word... he is simply fixing a mistake. Thanks btw, Paris.

Honkey · Post by **Honkey** » 11 Jul 2013, 12:45

AS I said on the previous thread..... Drunken I would agree deer has had their best tournament thus far. However... if you are going to win MWC you are going to have to beat whoever you play against. Seedings are really a moot point in a tournament this small, and you didnt have to play any of the top 4 rated teams in QR. I guess you could interchange wtc and ZOMG based on pre tournament rankings but either way the peak is the 4th best. If you look at TMNT they had to play - 3 of the top 4 teams which is why they moved down to fourth for weighted. They likely would have been 2-1 if they had swapped either of their losses with a less experienced team. The qrs were designed this way to matchup teams based on Skill level so everyone can have some fun competitive matches. No offense man but if deer played TMNTS qr schedule they would most likely be 1-2 (with an upset) or 0-3.

It is not bullshit that you dont get the best of both worlds, an easy qr schedule and an inflated seeding to reflect that. If you eliminate weighted qrs you increase forfeit matches or lopsided crap and I would say this Qr has been rather successful regarding competitive matches and fun play for the teams involved.

Honkey · Post by **Honkey** » 11 Jul 2013, 12:49

and arsenal as I said: You cannot play against weak teams and expect to be rewarded with an easy path to the semi finals. All that creates is a reverse tournament where the finals/semi finals are played in the first 2 rounds for the right to dismantle whoever survives among the less experienced teams. A higher seeding gives your team no additional advantage to win as you are eventually going to have to defeat a TMNT, TMNS, AGENTS, ZOMG twice in a row anyway to get above a 5th place finish. Sure a couple of them will kill each other off early and you may get something like a deer 5th place finish, but you still gotta beat the best teams. Which is why I personally didnt give a fuck that we were matched against TMNT, we would most likely have to face them again to have any shot at winning it.

drunken_deer · Post by **drunken_deer** » 11 Jul 2013, 12:59

Honkey wrote:AS I said on the previous thread..... Drunken I would agree deer has had their best tournament thus far. However... if you are going to win MWC you are going to have to beat whoever you play against. Seedings are really a moot point in a tournament this small, and you didnt have to play any of the top 4 rated teams in QR. I guess you could interchange wtc and ZOMG based on pre tournament rankings but either way the peak is the 4th best. If you look at TMNT they had to play - 3 of the top 4 teams which is why they moved down to fourth for weighted. They likely would have been 2-1 if they had swapped either of their losses with a less experienced team. The qrs were designed this way to matchup teams based on Skill level so everyone can have some fun competitive matches. No offense man but if deer played TMNTS qr schedule they would most likely be 1-2 (with an upset) or 0-3.

It is not bullshit that you dont get the best of both worlds, an easy qr schedule and an inflated seeding to reflect that. If you eliminate weighted qrs you increase forfeit matches or lopsided crap and I would say this Qr has been rather successful regarding competitive matches and fun play for the teams involved.

Its not an issue to the strength of teams we are facing. When I say who we play against in seeding ect, my team faced ULMS in QR3 and WTC in QR1.. both are the same DE1 (bye) DE2 (ULMS) and possibly DE3 (WTC) match-ups since devils rejects is now a forfeit team. Just would of been nice to play a diff team for at least DE3.

Captain · Post by **Captain** » 11 Jul 2013, 13:00

I agree with the fact there is weighted seeds, however the fact is QR shouldn't be weighted and should be random.

It gives teams like Deer essentially zero chance at a first seed, they were not asked to be put in a weaker division.

But the bottom line is what people have said. Does it really matter, you are going to have to try and beat every team to win MWC anyway, so who cares?

East Wind tmnt · Post by **East Wind tmnt** » 11 Jul 2013, 13:08

Deer vs ULMS MWC Finals, let's go

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 11 Jul 2013, 13:13

It's cute that adren calls people idiots when he clearly has the reading comprehension of a 4th grader. Read what I wrote, I'm not disagreeing with what people are saying, I'm merely pointing out that we basically had no reason to play the QR if we are going to arbitrarily assign more points to teams that are supposed to be better. Why have a QR at all if we just decide the seed is wrong and change it.

adrenaline · Post by **adrenaline** » 11 Jul 2013, 13:19

I read as far as "I agree with double D". The fact that you agreed with him gave me good cause to call you an idiot, idiot.

Arsenal wrote:Why have a QR at all if we just decide the seed is wrong and change it.

Now that the DE seeding are fixed, they actually DO reflect the QR results... so your question here really makes no sense. You clearly don't seem to understand how weighted pools work. That, and teams have got to play a few matches against like-skilled teams... at least most have.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 11 Jul 2013, 13:29

Honkey wrote:AS I said on the previous thread..... Drunken I would agree deer has had their best tournament thus far. However... if you are going to win MWC you are going to have to beat whoever you play against. Seedings are really a moot point in a tournament... It is not bullshit that you dont get the best of both worlds, an easy qr schedule and an inflated seeding to reflect that. If you eliminate weighted qrs you increase forfeit matches or lopsided crap and I would say this Qr has been rather successful regarding competitive matches and fun play for the teams involved.

I'm going to underline and bold why originally I did not have a preference to use weighted or non-weighted QR seedings, I thought non-weighted would be more interesting than what the weighted seedings would have to offer anyway (good matches earlier in tournament, a good team climbs bottom bracket throughout tournament and also plays more matches than the team in the top bracket who beat them)

par73 · Post by **par73** » 11 Jul 2013, 14:01

adrenaline wrote:I read as far as "I agree with double D". The fact that you agreed with him gave me good cause to call you an idiot, idiot.

Arsenal wrote:Why have a QR at all if we just decide the seed is wrong and change it.
Now that the DE seeding are fixed, they actually DO reflect the QR results... so your question here really makes no sense. You clearly don't seem to understand how weighted pools work. That, and teams have got to play a few matches against like-skilled teams... at least most have.

Yeah adren's point here is pretty obvious.

Ars you can go ahead and roll up 3 or 4 doobies while I write this out in regards to why we would have a qr at all if "we decide the seed is wrong and change it." I don't think the new seeding was wrong at all, and I think the old seeding was fairly accurate anyway and would have cause two of the better 4 teams in this tournament to play each other in DE2 and then ride the bottom bracket train to stardom (which would have been cool, imo).

Hear me out ars, I mean the top 3 teams (by roster, caliber and activity) were scheduled to all play each other. They would also play one team that didn't make the cuff of the top 3. The teams in the 4-6 range would play one of the top teams, someone from the 4-6 range, and someone from the 7-9 range. 7-9'rs all played the blades once, played someone from their 'bracket/range/grouping', and played one team from the 4-6 range. Essentially you are more likely to see teams who have lopsided advantages over others end up with a better QR score than other teams.

I.e., at the bottom, all the 7-9 teams had their QR score boosted by playing a relatively new and undermanned squad, The Blades. At the top TMNS got a lopside advantage by having their 4-6 team be a blow out, while TMNT and Agents actually lost their matches against the 4-6 teams. easily, TMNS won the "top3 bracket" just by beating down a lesser team, something that agents and TMNT did not take advantage of.

This is where things get tricky. ZOMG beats TMNT and WTC beats Agents, both 3-2. so why have ZOMG be at seed #2 besides the fact that I used dantski's 2-4-6 weighing ranking system, while WTC misses the top 4? ZOMG should be ranked over TMNT at the very least, as they did in fact beat TMNT. ZOMG and Agent's could arguably be switched via seeding, as Agents played in the top bracket while Zomg was still able to play a team from the 7-9 range. ZOMG also won all their matches, every other team lost at least one match. Therefore if I was not using Dantski's seeding system, I would have agents at #2 despite a 5-10 showing in the Qrs, ZOMG at 3, and TMNT at 4. Why does WTC miss the top 4 despite beating Agents?

WTC won their two matches against opponents ranked equal or greater than them, but they totally lost their match to a 7-9 team while being from the 4-6 range. Out of the top 5 teams I have ranked thus far, as well as the top 9 besides the blades at #10, no other team did this. In fact, TCOX who did the worst out of any team in the QRs even won their match against their 7-9 team.

If anything, TCOX should be ranked 8 instead of 9th as they did in fact beat DR and thus do not deserve to be ranked below them, but that whole idea would be moot anyway as the 8th and 9th seed play each other in the first round regardless.

Deer snags sixth, they beat a higher ranked team but lost to some team in the 7-9 range which they are in. Arguably ULMS should take 6th instead of 7th as they beat DEER, but DEER beating a higher ranked team kind of gives them the advantage over ULMS in my ideal seedings. This would of course go against one of the tiebreaking rules I had set up originally, but I feel is more appropriate.

so if anything i would say that the way these qr seeding's were done will work for what we have. if i had done it any differently there would be moot and minor changes that would not really effect the outcome of either teams tournament. Either way, Deer and ULMS will have to face either ZOMG or Agents in DE2. DR and TCOX need to face each other in round one.

If you look at the way the original seeding is done, there is a simple way to understand how they worked out. The top 2 teams stayed in the same place, the 7th and 8th seed rose 4 places each (for having a more difficult QR schedule), and every other team went down respectively into place below these top 4 teams.

dac · Post by **dac** » 11 Jul 2013, 14:09

well thought out paris. in past years when teams like ageha went undefeated in weak pools and got the 1 seed they were rewarded with playing a team like MoC who showed in force for the DE rounds and ageha was out of the tournament by DE3.

weighting seeds based on just the qr score doesnt necessarily help the lower teams, except you get a bye week. woopty fuckin doo, everybody plays mwc for the byes right?

Arsenal · Post by **Arsenal** » 11 Jul 2013, 14:50

Thanks for the well thought out post Paris. I do, however, understand the reasoning for the way the seeding has been changed and I honestly really don't care about the seeding, I just feel there is another side to this conversation that is being overlooked. All I am saying is that by arbitrarily adding points to teams that are supposed to do better you discredit the effort that a weaker team puts into the QR. Let me put it this way, lets say the QR was not weighted and every team had an equal chance of playing everyone. The weak teams would probably not do as well and would be seeded lower, however, they would have at least been given a chance of upsetting some better teams and getting a good seed. With the way that the seeding was done now, a weaker team, no matter how well they played, cannot get a good seed.

It doesn't matter how well or how poorly a team played, if they are assumed to be bad or good they will get the seed people want them to get. Really, my point is, that the weaker teams were never even given a chance to do well, a team like DEER who had a good run was essentially told it doesn't matter. How about a team like ZOMG, whats to say that they couldn't beat the rest of the top teams, they beat one of them at least, but they were never give the chance to get that #1 seed because at some point someone decided that they aren't as good as the other teams so it doesn't matter that they didn't lose a match all QR, beat a top team and had a legitimate shot at beating the rest.

Now, honestly, I really don't care about the seeding and I have no delusions that they matter or will affect the outcome of the tournament in any way. I just felt it was an interesting point of view that was being overlooked. Now, for total transparency, my only personal interest in this topic is that my team, ULMS, was bumped from having a bye to not having a bye and it just so happens that this week we will have attendance issues with most of our team unable to make the match and a bye would have been nice. But again, ultimately it doesn't matter and I have wasted far too much time talking about an issue that I really care so little about.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 11 Jul 2013, 15:14

Arsenal wrote:Thanks for the well thought out post Paris. I do, however, understand the reasoning for the way the seeding has been changed and I honestly really don't care about the seeding, I just feel there is another side to this conversation that is being overlooked. All I am saying is that by arbitrarily adding points to teams that are supposed to do better you discredit the effort that a weaker team puts into the QR. Let me put it this way, lets say the QR was not weighted and every team had an equal chance of playing everyone. The weak teams would probably not do as well and would be seeded lower, however, they would have at least been given a chance of upsetting some better teams and getting a good seed. With the way that the seeding was done now, a weaker team, no matter how well they played, cannot get a good seed.

It doesn't matter how well or how poorly a team played, if they are assumed to be bad or good they will get the seed people want them to get. Really, my point is, that the weaker teams were never even given a chance to do well, a team like DEER who had a good run was essentially told it doesn't matter. How about a team like ZOMG, whats to say that they couldn't beat the rest of the top teams, they beat one of them at least, but they were never give the chance to get that #1 seed because at some point someone decided that they aren't as good as the other teams so it doesn't matter that they didn't lose a match all QR, beat a top team and had a legitimate shot at beating the rest.

Now, honestly, I really don't care about the seeding and I have no delusions that they matter or will affect the outcome of the tournament in any way. I just felt it was an interesting point of view that was being overlooked. Now, for total transparency, my only personal interest in this topic is that my team, ULMS, was bumped from having a bye to not having a bye and it just so happens that this week we will have attendance issues with most of our team unable to make the match and a bye would have been nice. But again, ultimately it doesn't matter and I have wasted far too much time talking about an issue that I really care so little about.

Well y'see, a weaker team (ZOMG) did upset a better team and got a good seed. Idk if they would have gotten as good of a seed if the top teams didn't basically do very similar against each other. Teams that were in the 4-6 range had a better chance of beating teams in the 1-3 range than the 7-9 range. The 7-9 range teams didn't even get a chance to play the top 1-3 range due to the way QR scheduling took place (and making a formula for QR scheduling was a pain in the ass for a ten team tournament, let me tell you.) More importantly I didn't want the 1-3 range teams to absolutely rape the 7-9 teams into not playing at all and felt that the QRs would be better if those matches were avoided during scheduling; Otherwise traidtional DE seeding would have taken place (1-3 and 4-6 played a team from 1-3, 4-6 and 7-9; 7-9 played 4-6, 7-9 and the blades once et. al) The 4-6 team that beat their 1-3 team did rightfully get their better QR seed. Perhaps if WTC did not fumble their match against DEER they would be seeded #3.

If ULMS is going to have a scheduling issue this week they could always schedule their DE1 match to take place on the DE2 weekend (but needs to be completed before the DE2 Matchup).

It was nice to talk to you. I don't think care really matters anymore except when you want to upset people who have looked through and posted in every single thread in the gate of storms.net forums.

HeadHunterKC · Post by **HeadHunterKC** » 11 Jul 2013, 16:47

Drunken, didn't you get the memo?

WU TANG CLAN AIN'T NOTHING TO FUCK WITH!

dac · Post by **dac** » 11 Jul 2013, 17:57

Arsenal wrote:I just feel there is another side to this conversation that is being overlooked. All I am saying is that by arbitrarily adding points to teams that are supposed to do better you discredit the effort that a weaker team puts into the QR.

this point is valid only if the qr was a complete round robin. since this isnt a european soccer league, we dont have a scenario of everybody plays everybody. it's a DE tournament with a QR to knock off rust, determine care/activity levels, and potentially eliminate forfeit teams ahead of time. the seedings are arbitrary and the reward is actually playing the game less. i remember being grounded when i was a kid and having that same "reward"

just sayin.

NewMutator · Post by **NewMutator** » 11 Jul 2013, 18:03

I agree with Captain, HOWEVER, I totally appreciate the snafu caused by teams getting beat by "weaker" teams they are not supposed to lose to according to prejudged QR rankings. If we consider seeding as arbitrary, designed to schedule good, close matches, rather than an indication of what teams earned with their QR performance -- if we think of seeding not as team rankings but as a matchmaking device -- then the debate about fairness becomes moot.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 11 Jul 2013, 18:46

lol dac

Lizard King · Post by **Lizard King** » 11 Jul 2013, 23:52

Leave it how it is so I can skullfuck Drunken and feed his tears to empy with a wooden ladel carved from the trunk of THOR's cock.

Chohan · Post by **Chohan** » 12 Jul 2013, 00:27

Lizard King wrote:Leave it how it is so I can skullfuck Drunken and feed his tears to empy with a wooden ladel carved from the trunk of THOR's cock.

Looks like you have your match to shout cast coming up LN.

drunken_deer · Post by **drunken_deer** » 12 Jul 2013, 02:27

Lizard King wrote:Leave it how it is so I can skullfuck Drunken and feed his tears to empy with a wooden ladel carved from the trunk of THOR's cock.

you have a vivid imagination. It will serve you well when you get gangbanged by a bunch of deers.

rawr · Post by **rawr** » 14 Jul 2013, 20:05

Paris has a mistypo in the scheduling right ? De 2 is next weekend . If schedule is correct above then de1 was last weekend ? Doesn't make sense I'm assuming its next weekend

par73 · Post by **par73** » 15 Jul 2013, 15:41

DE2 is this coming weekend, DE1 was last weekend.

Zak · Post by **Zak** » 16 Jul 2013, 02:43

When is tcox vs TMNS?

par73 · Post by **par73** » 16 Jul 2013, 03:45

both teams are euro so fallback would be set to 1pm sunday i believe

Codex · Post by **Codex** » 01 Aug 2013, 20:24

Could you please change it so the blades plat WTC at 8:30 am instead please, this is the time we have agreed on.

par73 · Post by **par73** » 01 Aug 2013, 22:02

Well, fallback is used in case there is no agreement on other rescheduling. since you guys already rescheduled, you won't need to rely on the fallback.

Bebop · Post by **Bebop** » 01 Aug 2013, 23:42

So who are we playing and when are we playing them?

Dantski · Post by **Dantski** » 02 Aug 2013, 00:50

You play deer, no idea when!

par73 · Post by **par73** » 02 Aug 2013, 03:39

well since tmns is euro and deer is euro, i'd say fallback is probably 1pm sunday

Was it fair to weight the QR Seeds in regards to opponent strength?