paris metagaming

Forums for the MFC 2013 1v1 tournament.
tirri
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paris metagaming

Postby tirri » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:06 am

let's face it people. 1v1 in myth has been pretty stale for years. myth is lacking the interesting *metagame aspects of say sc2. sc2 is interesting in the sense that a worse player can easily 4-0 a better one if he is taking advantage of the metagame. im talking about real metagame shifts now, not cheesing. as far as enjoyable gaming goes, this has some advantages and disadvantages. you dont want a lesser player to keep beating better ones all the time, but it's still nice to see well-thought out strategies and mind games working once in a while.

the metagame in myth 1v1 hasnt really changed in years. this is prety evident by the fact that i use mostly the same strategies i used in 2003 and im not really missing a beat in the metagame aspects of the game. let's take gimble for example, the most played map in this tourney. it is pretty much always 6 archers, dorf and 2 puss ghols duking it out. sure there may be some small variations in the number of ghols or dorfs or something, but those are just individual preferences. and of course some lesser players try rushing from time to time but this is only because they dont feel like they can beat the better player with the same units.

paris the leveler enters the dueling stage

Image

paris has been rushing on several maps for a while now. paris differs from your normal rush-type-rawr-guy in the sense that he has a legitimate chance of beating top players with normal units too. so why is paris doing this? is he just bored with regular units? does he feel like he has a better chance of winning with these strats? does he even give a shit?? is the trying to lure us into thinking he is a rush-type player but then changes his game completely in the elimination rounds thus horribly surprising us all?

paris' rushes have opened way for some funny metagaming aspects. it's pretty easy to just counter his rushes with taking 2 duffs and leaving one behind. paris will most likely waste both puss in trying to kill the first dorf and then the game is almost as good as over. but now suddenly paris can take advantage of the fact that people think he is rushing and not rush at all! his opponent will waste points on useless extra dorfs that arent really that needed in high level 1v1s.

the sad thing is that myth isnt enough rock-paper-scissors like to make these kind of mind games interesting enough. thus paris outsmarting us all isnt giving him the advantage he deserves. one isnt penalized enough with taking 2 dorfs on gimble for example. it isnt at all comparable to sc2 where you give a huge advantage to the opponent if you prepare for something that isnt coming.


or is it 2013 and no one gives two craps about myth metagame??? who knows




*metagame
The term metagame literally means 'beyond the game' and refers to any planning, preparation, or maneuvering that a player does outside of actual gameplay to gain an advantage. The metagame has three major branches, which contain some overlap:

Preparation done before a match to exploit current trends in StarCraft.
Preparation done specifically to exploit an opponent's or map's style of play.
Strategic decisions designed specifically to exploit a player's reaction or weakened mental state in the future. These are also known as 'mind games' or 'psychological warfare'.

NewMutator
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby NewMutator » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:35 am

Myth definitely is not lacking a metagame. The metagame is just contingent on factors such as the map/gametype.

NewMutator
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby NewMutator » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:42 am

It's actually interesting to note the solidification of the Myth metagame this 1v1 tournament/league/whatever has wrought. It becomes plainly visible over scores of games.

tirri
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby tirri » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:27 pm

i dont feel like high level metagame on the usual 1v1 maps has changed much in years. if most played maps are gimble, gyre, pg, kg, badlands and such

sure its different on weird maps and game types but that wasnt what my post was aimed at. hell i dont have a set strategy for desert or trow flag rally for 1v1 games cause playing them once in every 2 years isnt enough. but i cant say theres really any metagame there to speak of because most dont even have a set strategy for stuff like that

punkUser
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby punkUser » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:18 pm

Perhaps that just means that people have gotten lazy in terms of trying something they are not familiar with and we should expand the range of maps/gametypes that are in use.

That's actually why I don't like meshes like PG/KG - I find that they simplify things even further by removing all choke points, height variation, etc. when things already lack variation in 1v1. I'd much prefer a plugin that "balanced" the start locations, but used the same meshes. i.e. make sure both players are opposite and equal distance from the mid (or whatever); you don't need to flatten the entire map to "balance" it.

While I'm not usually a fan, the odd game I've played in the tourney on desert/creep/etc. has been somewhat interesting due to having *some* element of strategy/trade in it. I've been tempted to do some weird trades on the standard maps (especially Badlands which is way too predictable) just to spice things up, but I imagine it'd just be a quicker way to lose in most cases ;)

par73
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby par73 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:53 pm

for these MFC QR's i just wanted to play as many matches as possible. the rushing effect has been interesting thus far, althought a lot of times i will lose on general basis. When people anticipate the rush they seem to do a lot better than me, when I pull it out of my ass they run away thinking they found nineball. The old style of play I used was slow play drag out BC cave or adren style one might say. now I throw a little more chickenwire zer into it. Shaister or Erik over the Cho, as some might call it.

I am mostly lazy in all of these 1v1s but sometimes everything works together and people just collapse on themselves. its games like 89% wins against gkg on pg that actually start to convince me rushing is fun. I have been trying new shit out because the same shit is just boring and i'd rather enjoy playing the game rather than giving a fuck. Speaking of outsmarting, most of these games I am so high I outsmart myself by forgetting units or what I had even planned to do with the unit trade I got. Also playing exhausted or with distractions are other ways I outsmart myself. This outsmarting causes me to lose more, but I don't really give a fuck because my QR goal was to mainly play as many different people as possible and play somewhat often. This has lead to me having more games played than any other player in any myth tournament ever.

Not to mention I can't win a single game of badlands. Want to beat me in 1v1 and feel good about your neener? pick badlands.

@PunkUser pg and kg have plenty of hills which makes it annoying when you play people like adren who just back up to these hills and convince me to just rush him to start a new game as soon as possible. I also agree that creeps and deserts have been some of the more enjoyable games for me in this tournament.

its cool to have maps be even steven but there are advantages and disadvantages everywhere and not just in the game but to other metagaming effects (Than UT preparation). i think these advantages and disadvantages define myth, just like duds on a puss or duff. when i go to the casino sometimes i will avoid the blackjack tables just because i'd rather play 5 games in a minute rather than one or two. sometimes playing more makes your chances of winning seem like they go up but in reality it is just reinforcement bias.

NewMutator
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby NewMutator » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:34 pm

Obviously it's a variation of the sorites paradox if you're complaining the metagame hasn't changed at all over the years. The point at which the metagame "changes" is ill-defined.

Giant Killer General
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby Giant Killer General » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:43 pm

par73 wrote:its games like 89% wins against gkg on pg


uhh yea that number looks really inflated. looks like it was actually a 68% win. upon rematching with the same trades I won with 75%. not sure where you got 89% from.

I agree, I get lazy too sometimes.

in any case, rush trades are not anything new its been done many times throughout the years. I haven't adjusted my trades any just because I know anyone is going to rush. I have fought them many many times and there is reasons why I get the trade that I do, I know how to fight anything with them. Very little to do with the trade, and everything to do with how you play with the trade that you have. this is why there may be less perceived so-called meta-game, which is because you can succeed with skill and smarts, knowing how to change your play style to adapt to different situations.

adrenaline
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby adrenaline » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:53 pm

back up to hills? what do you expect me to do when you are rushing with 2x the mellee I have? come at you? haha. backing up buys time and let's mana recharge... i'd be pretty stupid not to do it.

punkUser
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby punkUser » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:17 pm

Hehe yeah to be clear paris, I think everyone was complementing the fun you are bringing to the 1v1, not criticizing :) I think tirri is impressed that it is doing as well as it is.

Perhaps GKG tagset and some different meshes could spice things up in the future :)

NewMutator
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby NewMutator » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:45 pm

The problem with GKG tagset is that it fundamentally alters game behavior, which could be problematic for people who are also participating in MWC (switching between two different game behaviors) which looks to be almost everyone.

Giant Killer General
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby Giant Killer General » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:00 pm

My tagset was an experiment. I learned a lot from it. Ultimately the most ideal situation would be to have functionality where maps and trades were completely independent, and you could also customize the trade point values for units. This would unlock a lot more playability with myth, and uncover some very interesting never-before-seen strategies. Also at least an easy option to enable no-duds for times when it may be desired, such as competitive play, would also be useful.

par73
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby par73 » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:08 pm

Giant Killer General wrote:
par73 wrote:its games like 89% wins against gkg on pg
upon rematching with the same trades I won with 75%.

well yea but another time we 'rematched pg' you won the first game with 14% left and i won the following game by rushing you and I won with 42% left. it is also metagaming of doing the same trade twice and you knowing im going to do the same thing, which allows you to prepare efficiently. Yet when you won with 14% left I don't think you saw my rush coming on the rematch and I took it to you.

regardless i'm not trying to be a moneyballer here but
i like jukes and hesitation as well as pick n roll cuts in basketball, its good stuff. someone quoted someone the other day about being water and formless in competition to confuse expectations, well right when you think you know water in the glory of its freshness, i introduce salt water and you get fucked.

Giant Killer General wrote:this is why there may be less perceived so-called meta-game, which is because you can succeed with skill and smarts, knowing how to change your play style to adapt to different situations.


nah it's not less perceived its just another part of metagaming. there are a few key elements to metagaming all representing the whole of metagaming. preparation, perception adaptation are probably the words which should be bolded here.
deciding what to do is 70% what the defender is doing and 30% what you want to do, you gotta develop go to moves and then a counter move, when you have both it's really hard to stop.

adrenaline wrote:back up to hills? what do you expect me to do when you are rushing with 2x the mellee I have? come at you? haha. backing up buys time and let's mana recharge... i'd be pretty stupid not to do it.


clearly the book is not defined by the cover, or login for that matter!
heh all jests aside, that approach is efficient i am just saying i have far less patience with games of that nature than games that can end in 2 minutes at the moment. I have had countless successes with that approach, i refer to it as the willow creek.

Giant Killer General
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby Giant Killer General » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:37 pm

this metagaming thing is really going to par's head.

i have no-doubt metagame'd all of my wins. i am the metagaming champion here. let me show YOU how metagaming is really done.

really though, I have never changed my trades regardless of circumstance. Since I haven't changed my trades, and I can scout to see what the opponent has and is going to do, there is no element of so-called surprise or metagaming here. it hasn't had any effect on me, maybe it has for others. Really what we are talking about is doing rarely used but viable trades, and others having less practice in defending it. the more you do it, the easier it is to defend it as you get more practice with it. This talk about being surprised by the rush, when you can clearly scout far ahead of yourself is just nonsense.

That's like saying because I played someone who has a different play style that I am used to, and I am not able to predict their moves as well as others which makes them have some success over me, that they "metagame'd" me. But once I play them a bunch and get used to them, then what? who knows.

par73
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby par73 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:36 am

ah word i figured out how YOU would show me metagaming was really done, by moving my rank from 3 to 5 while i have done nothing but win matches today and gekko hasn't played any matches at all (not to mention tirri was moved above me even though our match is still pending and his only recent match was against a player i beat as well)

hilarious tournament and use of metagaming gkg, bravo

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Re: paris metagaming

Postby Giant Killer General » Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:12 am

have you beaten any of the players ranked above you? no
does it matter at all since you are still in the top division? no
are you being a whining cry baby right now? yes

par73
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby par73 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:21 pm

ahh i forgot, this tournament is all about the 'top division'

i guess this is why kirk made 2nd rank before even qualifying

gkg's glorified 'top division'

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Re: paris metagaming

Postby Giant Killer General » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:12 pm

I rank everyone as soon as their 1st game is played. I made it perfectly clear that they were temporary rankings that would be making a lot of assumptions that everyone would qualify, etc.

It can be all about the top division for some, or not. That doesn't matter, what matters is you are still in the same division. Ranking doesn't matter in the QR if you are still in the same division retard.

Remember I didn't have to make updated rankings for anyone. You are basically bitching about a favor I did for everyone. Nice going.

nine
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby nine » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:57 pm

Giant Killer General wrote:This talk about being surprised by the rush, when you can clearly scout far ahead of yourself is just nonsense.



Giant Killer General wrote:finished me with a gimble rush. totally changing his play style threw me off.



nonsense ftw.

Giant Killer General
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby Giant Killer General » Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:43 pm

i said play style, not trade.

nice to see you are paying such good attention to the forums though.

par73
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby par73 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:58 pm

this metagaming thing is really going to gkg's head

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Re: paris metagaming

Postby par73 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:52 am

hey tirri,

Image
Image
Image

metagaming, full effect

tirri
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby tirri » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:58 am

these forums are really boring and im very bored at work cause its july and nothing is happening. i am desperately trying to think of ways to entertain myself

i announce that i will watch all the films played in de rounds and declare the meta gaming champion at the end of the tourney. this champion should get a brain as their gos icon

paris is in the lead by a fair margin right now

punkUser
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby punkUser » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:45 pm

tirri wrote:i announce that i will watch all the films played in de rounds and declare the meta gaming champion at the end of the tourney. this champion should get a brain as their gos icon

You know that's likely to be up to 1000 games if everyone finishes right? (~200 matches, 3-5 games apiece)...

adrenaline
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Re: paris metagaming

Postby adrenaline » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:51 pm

i believe in you, tirri.


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