GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

"...turning the godhead of the ghols into a monument to Balin's victory. Nothing else has done more to sustain the mutual hatred since the ghols raided the crypt at Myrgard for 'victuals'."
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GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby grim » 01 Apr 2013, 08:51

GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor
Author: GiantKillerGen

Summary:
GKG's highly anticipated sequel to the "The Push Factor" article from 2011, and the conclusion to the "GKG School of Myth Strategy" series of articles. It covers 6 points on the best way to organize, prepare, and lead a team into tournament matches.


Okay so my last article, "The Push Factor" I was able to touch on some of the technical aspects of myth strategy itself. I shared the insight I have gained over my personal experiecne with the game on trading philosophies, strategies, etc. However, there is more to winning games than the trade and telling where people to go at the very start. Like most things in life, the most important thing is the people involved. The people involved in this case is your team. Winning games is also about how to best organize the team, and lead the team as the team captain. Afterall, you can have the most perfect strategy but if it isn't executed well then it will go to crap. A good strategy should be easier to execute than a bad one, but the team members need to understand the strategic vision to be able to execute any kind of strategy.

And this brings me to this article, similarly titled - "The Captain Factor" as this is a follow-up to "The Push Factor" article and ties into it. I will try to keep this as concise as possible, and focus on my actual system as a captain. I learned most of my system during MWC11, so let me give you some brief context first starting there.

MWC11 with The Chicago Bullz was my first job as the primary captain of an MWC team, and a top MWC team at that. I was still a recognized captain at the time with years of experience, but it was still somewhat of a new job for me in some ways. After years of frustration under the team leadership of players such as Raziel and Shaister, where I was very outspoken and frequently clashed with them over strategies, capping, etc., I was very eager to do this job right and show everyone how it should be done.

The Chicago Bullz had a multitude of challenges in front of us before we could achieve success though. First of all, we had players with previous beefs with each other (myself included) that needed to be addressed. The other big problem we had was finding our team chemistry. The Bullz were actually flat for most of the tournament. Despite my relatively good strategies at the time, we were not executing. I wasn't properly explaining my strategic vision to the team so they could understand, and this was especially important since my strategies were generally more complex and relied on tight coordination. We got by on our overwhelming skill for the most part, however our big wake-up call was when we tied NC in the QR.

We just couldn't quite find our rhythm. I spent the better part of the tournament trying figure out a system that would improve our team chemistry. I have evolved that system since then to improve upon it as I am still learning from my mistakes. This system I will now share with all of you in this article.

So to address the first challenge about having beefs within the team, it really all starts with a personal choice. You either choose to drop it or you don't, it is really quite that simple. Paris, Kirk, and I all chose to drop it. And it really had to be a unanimous thing, because if one person can't convince you that they have let it go, then nobody will. I certainly wouldn't have joined The Bullz if that was the case, because nobody wants to deal with that drama, it is poison to any team. However we all made that personal choice together. To cement it in, I addressed the situation immediately and first-hand by making an introductory post to address the entire team. Which brings us to the first point:

The Captain's Introduction

This is the very first post made in the private team forum. It is the Captain's responsibility to do this, and it serves several different important purposes:

First, if it is a newly formed team, you welcome everyone to the team, introduce yourself, and set the tone that there can be no negativity or beef between team mates. The team captain has to create the expectations of the team culture immediately. This starts the team bonding process.

Second, you let everyone know that you are in charge as the captain, asserting yourself will instill confidence in the rest of your team. Let them know you are on top of the job and all over it. Assure them that no matter what happens you take full responsibility. This is more than just words, you have to actually do it too, which will happen for you every single time there is a match loss, so get used to it. Even for game losses or any other mistakes, you need to find your mistakes and acknowledge it. This sets the example for your teammates to do the same which is very important for the team to be able to improve. Your team will also be more likely to follow you then, and any team needs to have a strong and clear leader.

Third, you give a broad general vision you have for the team. Who will be the primary trower, heavy hitter, role players, etc. As the leader of any team, you need to be able to share your vision to the rest of your teammates so that they understand it. This will come into play again later and be very important when you have to share your strategic visions as well.

Fourth, this starts the team conversation on the private team forums which allows your teammates to get to know each other a bit more. This also sets the example that your team should be using the team forums regularly, get them posting and talking, it is good for team morale. As the captain, you should be most interested in learning more about your player's capabilities. What are their favorite roles, favorite units, favorite play style, even their time zone for scheduling, etc.

Fifth, all of these things should show that you care about the team and the team's success. If the captain shows this, again it sets the example, and others will begin to care more about the team and its success as well, which all leads to a better outcome in the tournament as well.

That completes The Captain's Introduction. Now moving onto the second challenge that The Bullz had with flat performances. This one is quite a bit more complex and I had to use several different solutions to address this. My first solution starts below:

Assign Mini-Captains

Our match tie against NC in the MWC11 QR was the wakeup call that set all of these things in motion. That was when I was noticing some major problems. The first problem I noticed was that I couldn't give orders fast enough. I gave our middle an order to hold on one of the games in the match, and 30 seconds later they should have started pushing. However I was busy elsewhere and couldn't give them that order. So they kept holding, and that is when I realized having complete control over my team was a bad thing. My orders were being followed which is great, but followed too literally at times. I needed my fronts to be able to take charge of themselves, after all they are all top players and know what to do mostly anyway. This led me to my first solution:

I called them "Commanders" but whatever you call them, have one person on each front be in charge of that front. Make sure they understand your strategic vision, who they are in charge of, etc. then let them call the shots from there. This does require a little more effort on their part because they should understand your strategy almost as good as you, but I think most players will take up the job if you

ask them to. Empower these players to take charge just as you would, to be vocal in giving orders and take the initiative. And if any questions come up mid-game, then they just ask you, pretty simple.

When I first implemented this system, there was a huge difference. It freed up so much of my effort as a captain. The strategy was getting executed better, quicker, the commmunication and coordination was much improved. I was even able to contribute more to the BC fight since I wasn't so tied up micro-managing everyone else. I usually tried to assign 3 players to be Commanders, but sometimes just 2.

When you assign these Commanders, you are going to include all of their information in your strat notes that you post in the team forums. Who the commanders are, what other teammates are attached to them, what the area of responsibility is for that force, what their mission is, any contingencies they should know, etc. Which all brings me to my next point:

Detailed Strategy Notes

Some teams do post some strat notes, some don't and just wing it. However, I have never seen anyone post strat notes in the level of detail that I do them. I like to split them out like this:

1) Trade
2) Squads (example: 1 trower, 3 morters, 3 meleers)
3) High Concept (example: 2 prong with a strong mid and a heavy melee rush flank. Surround and rush)
4) Strategy
4a) Zones (example: Zone #1 - Middle, Zone #2 - North, Zone #3 - South)
4b) Distributions within each Zone (example: Trower - Ghengis (CMDR) - 2 trow, 4 zerks; mort #1 - Homer - 1 mort, 4 mauls, etc.)
5) Comments (any other contingencies, additional pointers, things to watch out for, any other comments about the game, etc.)

Try to get these detailed strat notes done ASAP, several days, or even up to a week ahead of the match. Having that time to simmer over your strategies in your mind helps. I often find myself going through 2, 3, or even 4 different revisions of a strategy for some of the games in a match, making tweaks and improvements to it as I think of all the different scenarios I may come across. This is also when I know that the strategy is going to be really really good.

If anyone wants to see a sample of my strat notes, just ask.

Another thing I have started doing is keeping a strategy logbook so I can keep track of all of my tournament strats. That way I don't spend hours making them then lose them all for the next tournament and have to recreate them again. It is also nice for tweaking your strats to improve them for later after you see how they perform in a tournament match, or to make note of what tournament match films used that strategy for later review and study. Keep a record of all of this valuable information, you can keep refining them to perfection.

Another concept I have most recently further refined is what I call, "The Captain's Squad", which brings me to my next point.

The Captain's Squad

This is the squad and role that the captain should take for himself in the game. This squad is very unique and special because the role of the captain is very unique and special. Consider that the captain is the only player in the game that can control or take any other teammate's units to instantly contribute to the micro anywhere on the map. He can also redistribute units between teammates. Assuming the captain also came up with all the strategies, he is also the one in the best position to give orders for any in-game adjustments and analyze strategic situations. The captain should not be surprised by any strategy that the opponent may do, he should have already thought of that possible scenario ahead of time and know exactly what to do against it.

So given this context, the captain should have a smaller, less important force. I usually rank my players and the squads they are given #1 - #8 (or however many teammates are on my team) signifying the most important squad to the least important. Even though I may be one of the top players on my team, my squad is usually like #4-#5 or so on the list. Whenever possible it should be a middle and / or roaming force. The captain is in the best position to handle a roaming force because he can instantly react and adjust however he seems fit. It may be more difficult to explain to another player every possible contingency they may come across to let them know how to react. The captain has spent more time thinking about these things than anyone else, and it could require very rapid and abrupt changes in the adjustments of any roaming force.

Stay away from taking archers or fetch as a captain, these things take up too much micro, and inherently require a lot of micro and tunnel visioning when they get into the thick of fights. This takes away from your ability to maintain map awareness and coordinate the rest of your team, which is incredibly important. Think of this squad as your command post. Being overzealous and giving myself better squads has hurt my team so many times because I wasn't able to fully do my job as the captain in the thick of the action.

Some nice roles / squads to think of for a captain are:

  • roaming melee / pus / dorf
  • fast and powerful melee flanks when trying to get behind the enemy to initiate a rush with the rest of your force
  • middle soulpacks
  • rushing forces (better allows you to initiate the rush at the best time with everyone on the team)
  • any really complex roles that are difficult to explain to someone else

If you as the captain are also one of the worst players on your team, consider taking even smaller roles like flag D, but try to help out with pus ghols or something while the rest of your force is inactive. Find a way to contribute to the fight as best you can.

These roles aren't micro intensive, and allow you to back off for a moment to be able to evaluate the whole map again regularly, or allow you to make quick adjustments yourself without having to constantly tell someone else what to do and how to do it.

Okay at this point your strategies should all be set, which brings you up to the last part of the pre-match preparation.

Dry-runs

I call these dry runs, where the whole team gets on right before the match and you give them their squads on each of the map/games. It is kind of like a practice drill. They go where they are supposed to, you explain any last-minute stuff, and they ask any questions they may have. It is nice to get a feel for the map, you can draw things on the mini-map to further explain something, you can explore or experiment with any other nuances on the map such as how deep is the water here, can my units move over this terrain, how well does the ground burn with fire arrows, the timing of what side tags what flags first, who takes what hills first, etc.

I just want to really emphasize the importance on this point. More than anything else on this list, I think the dry runs have contributed the most to the success of my MWC teams. We only did them for the last 2 important matches really, but this was the ONE thing that finally cured our flat performances. Once we started doing these, the difference was night and day. Everyone started executing very well, and the communication was IMPECCABLE. Seriously, watch the top bracket finals and grand finals of mwc11 and see how much The Bullz are communicating with each other, especially when compared to the other team. You can tell who is going to win just based off of that. Decisions / adjustments were being made within seconds, complex coordination was being executed immediately, it was an amazing thing to be a part of.

I also sometimes did these dry runs with teammates on an individual basis whenever I saw them online ahead of when we did it all as a team right before the match. Sometimes good ideas for further improvements to the strategy came out of these sessions too.

I think it has something to do with having those visuals of seeing the units on the map combined with the strategic vision, contingencies, other explanations, etc. that really ingrains it in the mind. When I started doing this, this was when people really started understanding my strategic vision. That visual aid of being in the game was a communication tool. Unfortunately I think this is the one point on the list that requires the most effort, and from everyone. So we only did this for the really important matches, when elimination was on the line, or the tournament finals. However, I HIGHLY recommend it.

Okay so that is everything you can do to improve your team leading up to the match, but what about immediately after the match? How do you take the lessons of the most recent match and tie it into improvements to be made for the upcoming match? That brings me to my final point:

Post-Match Commentary

It is critically important for the team to develop some chemistry with each other. To further help this, I always go over the films of our most recently completed match and point out what we did well, and what we didn't do well. The team has to keep improving together or it is going to lose in the tougher matches later in the tournament. So even though the early matches are usually easy and often considered a waste of time, you can still make the best of it by using it as a good opportunity to iron out any little problems that pop up whenever a team comes together.

This is why you need an open and constructive team culture too which you should have set the tone for right off the bat in The Captain's Introduction. As the captain, always be the first one to point out your own mistakes to set the example, but also constructively comment on others mistakes. Nobody should be getting defensive here, this is strictly a matter of trying to improve as a team, and doing what is best for the team.

Okay so that is everything, just a quick summary of all 6 of my points in order:

  1. The Captain's Introduction
  2. Assign Mini-Captains
  3. Detailed Strategy Notes
  4. The Captain's Squad
  5. Dry Runs
  6. and Post-Match Commentary

All of this does require a lot of effort as a captain, so it certainly isn't for everyone. However, it has been more than worth it for me. You pay a certain price in time and effort, but the payback of tournament championships, and having an amazing time with your team pays for itself in spades many times over.

It really helps with other things like team drama, and those sorts of problems that come up when a team is not organized well, and is drastically underperforming in the tournament compared to what is expected of the player talent on the team roster. If a team is underperforming, it usually isn't so much that they are playing badly individually, it almost always means that they are dealing with poor strategies and poor team organization by the team captain. It is up to the captain to give their players the best tools and set them up for success.

I hope this article can help improve the competitiveness of tournaments, as I do feel there is a huge shortage of talented captains to organize and lead the multitude of talented players out there. I also want to unload all of my knowledge to the myth community just in case I disappear eventually. Let me know if you want any advice for sitting in the captain's chair for your team. Thanks for reading, and have fun mything. I hope to see some challenging new teams led by some talented new captains in the upcoming MWC.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SeekerAntiVegan » 02 Apr 2013, 03:10

This article is crap.

Edit: I'm fine with not going into much detail here. The above sentence represents a succinct critique of GKG's article.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SamTheButcher » 03 Apr 2013, 10:58

Great article GKG. Its cool that you get into capping and strategy so much. I'm kind of a fan of battlefield strategy an tactics myself. I like that big 2 tm maps can be like a battlefield simulation and some real world tactics and strategies can be applied to Myth. I think it is very interesting. I tried to do some of the things you mentioned in your article years ago with GrU but most of them didnt have the time or interest to take it so far. I dont think most Mythers do. One thing I had done that some people may want to consider doing if they want to take capping and strategy to this level is get a map of the map. I went into Loathing uploaded the color map to a paint program. With this you can draw out start positions, movements ect with notes like choke points areas of the battlefield that give your team an advantage or where you would like to have the main fight located. Send them to everyone one on the team and the will have a detailed description of the strat where they will go ect. This gives everyone a clear picture of the entire strat. Then do your dry runs to start positions over and over. Until it becomes like muscle memory and everyone gets to their start positions as fast and smoothly as possible. Being able to get in start positions quickly can on some maps be a great advantage.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Giant Killer General » 03 Apr 2013, 17:51

Well I got you to waste your time reading it Seeker, so...GOTCHA. Seeing as you haven't even played myth in years, why a guy like you wastes time on these forums, let alone wasting time digging in and reading articles like this is beyond all of us I think. That was all I really wanted to accomplish with this article anyway. Since you took the bait, mission accomplished, BOOYA.



Sam - It is more effort than most are willing to deal with, and I understand that. It is for me too, I get burnt out on this all of the time. I only do all of these things a couple matches out of the year typically, otherwise I half ass it doing just part of these things, but just part is usually good enough when most other people don't do anything.

However, if Myth was closer to the level of say, Starcraft 2's level of competitiveness in tournaments (or League of Legends, or any other majorly competitive game), you would be seeing teams doing these things much more often. It would be much closer to any common sport's league at that point then, where you would see sports teams doing things like this all of the time. And I think we will see a game like that in the eventual future.

Using color maps for fancy visuals is way more effort than I would care to deal with. Doing the dry-runs accomplishes the same thing and is certainly good enough, especially for good / smart players that I am accustomed to playing with. They don't need their hand held.

You also have to be careful not to overly focus your team on one set plan, when in reality you don't know what the opponent is going to do. Even if you did know what the opponent will do, you still wouldn't know exactly how the game would play out. Combat is chaotic, shit hits the fan and things will go wrong. You can't say go to location A, and then do B, and after doing B ( because it is safe to assume that doing B will no-doubt be 100% successful and according to plan), then do C. Instead, You give the team a much more abstract and general vision of the strategy, contingency plans, things to watch out for, etc. and then let them make the decisions in real-time during the match to adapt to the constantly changing circumstances.

Now, sometimes you get lucky and the opponent falls right into your strategy and does exactly what you want them to do, and everything goes perfectly as planned. And the better your strategy the more likely this is to happen. However you can't depend on that always being the case. This happened for me a few times against NC the past couple years where they predictably did exactly what I thought they would do because they do the same shit year after year, but I always knew what else to do just in case they did something different, and then explained that to the team as well.

I also did not build my strategy from the ground up based on any chances of them doing a specific strategy, it was completely independent of that. The strategy is built to the map and gametype, and nothing else. Not any assumptions on what the other team might do, not even built for your own team. The team has to fit the strategy, the strategy can't be fit to the team. Just because you don't have any good trowers on the team doesn't mean you will be better off if you start getting trowless trades. If the team has deficiencies somewhere, then you train them up and try to fix those deficiencies as best you can. I never had that problem though because I always had an all-star group of players on my team, which certainly helps. I have run into that a little bit in the current draft tourney though.

Also let me say that there always needs to be this general, abstract plan in the back of the mind of your players. They have to know what they are supposed to accomplish right now in a given situation. Sometimes what they need to accomplish is to do nothing but occupy the attention of the enemy force across from them so as to run the timer out, or buy time for his team on the other side of the map to do something. Then your players need to have discipline and intelligence to keep that plan in mind. However, what happens when the captain doesn't have a good plan for their team to execute, or worse, no plan at all, then players on the team get bored and frustrated quickly, and then they stop playing as a team and start playing as individuals. What I mean by that is they will see that nothing else is happening on the team, that no one else is making any progress and there is no plan, so they will take matters into their own hands. They will just start fighting on their own, instead of the whole team pushing together, etc. and this almost always leads to a big loss. Think of the Spartans in a phalanx formation with shields up. They call cadence to synchronize their pushes against the enemy formation so their push is much stronger. If they don't push as a team in unison then the whole formation's push is very weak. They are almost fighting each other's energy at that point, it is very inefficient. You need the same thing in a myth team.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SeekerAntiVegan » 04 Apr 2013, 02:34

GiantKillerGen wrote:Well I got you to waste your time reading it Seeker, so...GOTCHA. Seeing as you haven't even played myth in years, why a guy like you wastes time on these forums, let alone wasting time digging in and reading articles like this is beyond all of us I think. That was all I really wanted to accomplish with this article anyway. Since you took the bait, mission accomplished, BOOYA.


I'm glad that you would waste 750-1000 words to elicit a terse reply from me, while simultaneously acknowledging that you would waste 750-1000 words on an article you know is crap while writing it. It's good fuel for my ego.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Giant Killer General » 04 Apr 2013, 15:41

Nah, nothing I did was a waste or crap for me. Obviously it is a waste and crap for you, which no one seems to care since you haven't been relevant to this community in many years if ever at all. And yet, here you are still, reading detailed articles about subjects that have 0 relevance for you. Is the Pope supposed to care if Donald Trump says the Bible is crap?

Sam thought it was a great article, and I have gotten nothing but positive feedback from everyone else. People that are interested in the nuances of captaining teams are the targeted audience of this article and are the only ones that would really hold any interest in it.

Anyway, since it was worth it for at least 1 person, then that is all that really matters.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SeekerAntiVegan » 05 Apr 2013, 00:56

GiantKillerGen wrote:Nah, nothing I did was a waste or crap for me. Obviously it is a waste and crap for you, which no one seems to care since you haven't been relevant to this community in many years if ever at all. And yet, here you are still, reading detailed articles about subjects that have 0 relevance for you. Is the Pope supposed to care if Donald Trump says the Bible is crap?

Sam thought it was a great article, and I have gotten nothing but positive feedback from everyone else. People that are interested in the nuances of captaining teams are the targeted audience of this article and are the only ones that would really hold any interest in it.

Anyway, since it was worth it for at least 1 person, then that is all that really matters.


Yet, didn't you say:

Well I got you to waste your time reading it Seeker, so...GOTCHA. Seeing as you haven't even played myth in years, why a guy like you wastes time on these forums, let alone wasting time digging in and reading articles like this is beyond all of us I think. That was all I really wanted to accomplish with this article anyway. Since you took the bait, mission accomplished, BOOYA.


So which is it GKG, you wrote it to get me to comment on it, or you wrote it for Sam? It has to be one or the other, you didn't leave yourself room for both!

Now to get beyond this trolling, and actually contribute something of substance here:

Your article overanalyzes a very easy role. Someone like ska is viewed as a great captain and rightfully so going by the results. Someone like hitlow as well. Even a guy like rabican. Yet, do you see them giving thousands of orders? No. Do you see them really doing much beyond distributing units to the right players, and ensuring that they land a well timed pus on their opponent? Not really.

And to me, that's great myth captaining. That's all myth captaining is... get the right players, give them the right units and then get out of the way. Most people figure out step one. They fall apart on step two.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Giant Killer General » 05 Apr 2013, 03:37

Oh but I can have both because I just did.

Ah so the truth comes out. I see what this is really all about for you now.

If someone actually relevant to the community wanted to debate it, maybe that would be a conversation worth having. But I'm not interested. Think what you want, don't care. If that is really what you think, then great, good for you.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SeekerAntiVegan » 05 Apr 2013, 04:46

So in the end you acknowledge that I'm right.

It's ok to admit that you were bested in a myth knowledge contest by Seeker. Your reputation won't suffer for it.


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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Asmodian » 05 Apr 2013, 18:38

SeekerAntiVegan wrote:Your article overanalyzes a very easy role. Someone like ska is viewed as a great captain and rightfully so going by the results. Someone like hitlow as well. Even a guy like rabican. Yet, do you see them giving thousands of orders? No. Do you see them really doing much beyond distributing units to the right players, and ensuring that they land a well timed pus on their opponent? Not really.

And to me, that's great myth captaining. That's all myth captaining is... get the right players, give them the right units and then get out of the way. Most people figure out step one. They fall apart on step two.


And this is where you lose all myth 2 credibility (not that you ever had any). To you great captaining is probably just being able to hand units out in time and that is why you will forever be a mid 2 baller at best on an ancrick team that never had any form of myth 2 success.

Also of course you would think this is over analyzing captaining. I'm sure once you saw there was more than two topics, unit trade and distribution that everything else just flew over your head, sorry to break it to you but this is why there has been so few impressive captains on myth 2. Of course some of these teams captained by "great captains" are going to look good when they have much better players on their team than most of the other teams, but when you match a team up like that to one of close to equal talent and an actual captain that knows wtf he is doing you get a repeat of Mwc11 and Mwc12.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SeekerAntiVegan » 06 Apr 2013, 15:51

Asmo, the only thing I have to say about your capping premise is this:

Team Zak vs. Team GKG.

Moving on:

Ancrik Comments:

The best performance on a team you ever had ('05) was with a team that was propelled by mostly Ancrik guys. So are you saying you never had any form of Myth success? In any case, I would stop slamming guys who liked you, and had your back. People like me think you're a huge dick, and comments like the one you made about Ancrik justify our point of view.

Also - I never played that much with Ancrik for tournament teams (believe I played once or twice with them). Always preferred the ea/vr crowd. Less competitive, more fun. Then when ea/vr disappeared into the abyss, I mostly hung out with the likes of TB, Bk, Garrick, etc. Now that they are gone (read: I no longer drag them out to play), if I ever do reappear it will be with Zak somewhere.

Myth Success

I don't make any bones about "Myth success" according to the standards that rank whores of your ilk covet. I never found your style of play to be fun, and that's what is most important in a game with nothing at stake. To have fun. If you're not enjoying the game, then why play. That's why if I was asked to join a team captained by the likes of Henry & Flatline I would say yes. It's also why I would never play with a guy like GKG. I don't find his style to be particularly fun. I respect the fact that he likes to play balls to the walls. However, that's not for me. I would rather get 5th/6th place with a bunch of guys I like playing with, than win it with a bunch of guys I don't like. I would certainly stab myself in the nuts before playing with the 187-type teams you always find yourself on.

So based on the standards that I keep I had fun on Myth. Therefore it was a success. I'm sorry that you don't apply my standards of Myth success to your own Myth career. If you did, you wouldn't be so obsessed about what the likes of GKG think of you. You wouldn't continue to pine for opportunities to sub on his team. You wouldn't even defend articles where he's overanalyzing a simplistic role.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SamTheButcher » 06 Apr 2013, 16:56

Seeker why did you feel the need to point out that you think GKG's article is crap? Actually you didnt even say you think it is, you said it IS crap. What exactly compelled you to take the time to write that? It looks like you are just starting shit. I dont know you but right away you look like an asshole. Plus indirectly you insulted me also and anyone else that liked GKG's article and found it interesting. Plus your wrong about him over analyzing strategy. Just passing the right units to the right people like you say can work ok in just a rabble game and even in a tourney if that is the same thing most of the teams are doing. But the further a captain analyzes and refines his strat the better it is going to be for the team. Think about it like this. There are 2 tms with equal Player skill. Both captains do as you say just pass units out to the right people. Its basically going to come down to chance which team is going to win. It would be pretty random as to where and what the Players on each team do and ultimately which team wins. If one of the Captains though has a detailed Strat like GKG describes that team is going to have an advantage. Thats true for a lot of sports. 2 football tms basically equal skilled players one team had plays that they knew and practiced the other team just did whatever. Which team do you think is most likely to win? If having strats or plans or plays werent helpful do you think football teams would practice them so much and guard them like they do? Why do you think Military leaders study battle tactics and strategy? They dont send soldiers into battle and say "Just do whatever." Even at an individual level Myth Players that have a strategy usually do better. If you are vs someone and you attack them with a strategy even if its a move or play you thought of at the moment like. Blocking the enemy Bowmen from retreating with flames so that your Ghol flank will work better. Thats a strategy that you will execute. VS what you are saying as just being a reactionary Player that just reacts to attacks. Both of those can be expanded to the team level as in having an overall team strategy and unit positions etc. VS just handing out units and basically telling your team to just play reactionary with no overall strat or plan.

Then you talk about Playing just for fun. For some people like myself part of the fun of Myth is looking at and analyzing strategies. GKG probably enjoys creating strats and also writing his articles. So because he gets enjoyment from something different than you out of Myth thats reason for you to attack him? Really? Is that the kind of dick you are?

Another thing on some maps that have been played over and over most people have a pretty good idea of what works. That is why the method you are talking about does have some success. That still is because most people already know the strats to those maps that have been analyzed and thought over and tested for years. Its the same thing GKG is talking about its just happened more organic and slower. By saying that GKG is over analyzing is really just showing your ignorance of Myth strategy. Either that or you just want to be an asshole.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SeekerAntiVegan » 06 Apr 2013, 17:59

SamTheButcher wrote:Seeker why did you feel the need to point out that you think GKG's article is crap? Actually you didnt even say you think it is, you said it IS crap. What exactly compelled you to take the time to write that? It looks like you are just starting shit. I dont know you but right away you look like an asshole. Plus indirectly you insulted me also and anyone else that liked GKG's article and found it interesting.


Because the article is crap. The problem is that he is giving people like you BAD ADVICE. Now, GKG has deserved credibility because of his great macro/micro play as a player. And yes, following his advice in other areas of Myth is a sound strategy. Though, with that said, you should also pay attention to Myrk & Adrenaline.

For example - That entire "Captain's Introduction" bit is unnecessary. Everyone knows everyone in the Myth community by now. If you don't, then you shouldn't even be capping in the first place.

Everything else essentially boils down to "team care." Do you think GKG could get the type of players I played with to commit that to level of care? No. Do you think GKG could get the type of players that Ratking plays with to commit to that type of care? Yes. Do you think GKG could get the namechangers or tcox to do something like that ever again? Probably not. They just don't care anymore.

Most importantly - GKG's article is of no help to players like yourself, because he doesn't discuss the importance of roster building. That is the singular most attribute of leading a team. He dances around the subject when talks about "beefs," but he doesn't dive into that point like he should. This does you a tremendous disservice because I can guarantee that if you follow the advice he gives to lead a team like GrU, you guys won't finish a spot better than you would have if you didn't listen to his advice. That's because I doubt you can get the players in GrU to commit to his regimen.

Plus your wrong about him over analyzing strategy. Just passing the right units to the right people like you say can work ok in just a rabble game and even in a tourney if that is the same thing most of the teams are doing. But the further a captain analyzes and refines his strat the better it is going to be for the team. Think about it like this. There are 2 tms with equal Player skill. Both captains do as you say just pass units out to the right people. Its basically going to come down to chance which team is going to win. It would be pretty random as to where and what the Players on each team do and ultimately which team wins.


If that's what you consider to be chance, then yes, it comes down to chance. I do not consider that to be chance. I consider that to be, "one player screws up. The other player does not screw up." (failure of execution) It is only chance if a team loses to a fluke bug introduced in the game or an unlucky bounce.

If one of the Captains though has a detailed Strat like GKG describes that team is going to have an advantage. Thats true for a lot of sports.


That's not capping. That's strategizing. The captain does not have to be the team strategist. It can be anybody. Why does it have to be the captain?

2 football tms basically equal skilled players one team had plays that they knew and practiced the other team just did whatever. Which team do you think is most likely to win? If having strats or plans or plays werent helpful do you think football teams would practice them so much and guard them like they do? Why do you think Military leaders study battle tactics and strategy? They dont send soldiers into battle and say "Just do whatever." Even at an individual level Myth Players that have a strategy usually do better. If you are vs someone and you attack them with a strategy even if its a move or play you thought of at the moment like. Blocking the enemy Bowmen from retreating with flames so that your Ghol flank will work better. Thats a strategy that you will execute. VS what you are saying as just being a reactionary Player that just reacts to attacks. Both of those can be expanded to the team level as in having an overall team strategy and unit positions etc. VS just handing out units and basically telling your team to just play reactionary with no overall strat or plan.


Again, strategy =/ capping.

Then you talk about Playing just for fun. For some people like myself part of the fun of Myth is looking at and analyzing strategies. GKG probably enjoys creating strats and also writing his articles. So because he gets enjoyment from something different than you out of Myth thats reason for you to attack him? Really? Is that the kind of dick you are?


If you read my post you would note I said the following:

It's also why I would never play with a guy like GKG. I don't find his style to be particularly fun. I respect the fact that he likes to play balls to the walls. However, that's not for me.


How is that getting on him for enjoying something differently than me. I said I respect his choice. I acknowledge that choice works for him, and not for me. That's not an insult Sam. If it is, then show me how I'm insulting GKG. I'm willing to listen.

As for calling me a dick? Was I the one who started with a personal insult? No, I didn't say GKG was irrelevant. I just said his article was crap. I insulted his article. I didn't' insult GKG as a person. GKG was a former marine. He served my country well. He was the one who started on with the personal insults.

So if you think I'm a dick, fine. At least think I'm a dick for the right reasons, like the fact I think your political beliefs are abhorrent. Don't think I'm a dick because I supposedly instigated the personal insults in this flame war.


Another thing on some maps that have been played over and over most people have a pretty good idea of what works. That is why the method you are talking about does have some success. That still is because most people already know the strats to those maps that have been analyzed and thought over and tested for years. Its the same thing GKG is talking about its just happened more organic and slower. By saying that GKG is over analyzing is really just showing your ignorance of Myth strategy. Either that or you just want to be an asshole.


Ok, this is a good point Sam.

What I would say in response is simple: Capping =/ Strategy. Do not conflate the two.

For example - Let's talk about namechangers here. Why is namechangers no longer as good?

Answer: No Cu. No East Wind. No GKG. The rest of their guys really don't care anymore. Less of a quality roster. Lack of care. No surprise they are on the way down. It has nothing to do with Shaister's supposed lack of leadership.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Asmodian » 06 Apr 2013, 21:24

Most everything you said in reply to my post was a little bit of truth mixed with a lot of lie.

1. My 2005 team was hardly Ancrik at at all. It was Pele and if you consider Ol'dirate ancrick you can count him too. My 2006 team was more Ancrik and I showed up for like 1 match that whole tournament. Also that was far from my most successful tournament.

2. I have never teamed with a "187" team, I think the only one that has ever been on one of my teams is Fool and Blonde...

3. I care what GKG thinks of me? No, or I would have been sucking up to him or any other person for that matter for years to try and get on a top team.

4. I never asked to sub once, I was always asked if I was available to sub.

Only reason I replied to the post was to point out how wrong you are about your idea of captaining. It doesn't have to do anything with it being a GKG post, it just happens that I tend to agree with him most of the time when it comes to Myth. Hilarious how you come in here being an ass for no reason and then you try to play this passive-agressive innocene game as soon as someone calls you out. PATHEDIC. I guess I shouldn't have expected any less from someone who hasn't played the game in years but continues to troll on forums.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Myrk » 06 Apr 2013, 23:42

SeekerAntiVegan wrote:Asmo, the only thing I have to say about your capping premise is this:

Team Zak vs. Team GKG.


Fyi gkg didn't bother applying most of the capping principles in his article for that match. We pretty much just winged it. The match wasn't worth putting any effort into, considering it was a QR match where all we had to do was not lose 4-1.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Zak » 07 Apr 2013, 01:45

Myrk wrote:
SeekerAntiVegan wrote:Asmo, the only thing I have to say about your capping premise is this:

Team Zak vs. Team GKG.


Fyi gkg didn't bother applying most of the capping principles in his article for that match. We pretty much just winged it. The match wasn't worth putting any effort into, considering it was a QR match where all we had to do was not lose 4-1.


Zak's Kids were all watching TV while receiving a lap dance during the match, so it was pretty even amount of care there

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Myrk » 07 Apr 2013, 04:41

You're all homosexuals so that makes sense

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Zak » 07 Apr 2013, 04:53

Asmo wrote:3. I care what GKG thinks of me? No, or I would have been sucking up to him or any other person for that matter for years to try and get on a top team.


Can't remember the last time you and GKG disagreed on a subject, but thats probably just coincidence

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SeekerAntiVegan » 07 Apr 2013, 04:57

Asmo wrote:Most everything you said in reply to my post was a little bit of truth mixed with a lot of lie.

1. My 2005 team was hardly Ancrik at at all. It was Pele and if you consider Ol'dirate ancrick you can count him too. My 2006 team was more Ancrik and I showed up for like 1 match that whole tournament. Also that was far from my most successful tournament.


Spiderwort was definitely on that team. He's as core Ancrik as you can get. I remember this because he popped out of nowhere for that tournament and then left. Believe Infector as well. Probably a few others as well. If I could look at the roster I'd know. Unfortunately, the wayback machine isn't permitting a look.

2. I have never teamed with a "187" team, I think the only one that has ever been on one of my teams is Fool and Blonde...


http://www.mythgaming.net/mwc2007/team.php?id=24

http://myth2.com/team.php?id=6

http://mwc2012.weebly.com/team-9.html

If Rodekill's leading the team, it's what we consider to be a '187' team. So yeah, pay up buddy. You got caught in a lie.

3. I care what GKG thinks of me? No, or I would have been sucking up to him or any other person for that matter for years to try and get on a top team.


Yeah, no one believes you on this one...

4. I never asked to sub once, I was always asked if I was available to sub.


Irrelevant.

Only reason I replied to the post was to point out how wrong you are about your idea of captaining. It doesn't have to do anything with it being a GKG post, it just happens that I tend to agree with him most of the time when it comes to Myth. Hilarious how you come in here being an ass for no reason and then you try to play this passive-agressive innocene game as soon as someone calls you out. PATHEDIC. I guess I shouldn't have expected any less from someone who hasn't played the game in years but continues to troll on forums.


Don't care why you responded to my post. I do care that your post showcases an intent to turn on folks who did you a favor, as per your MO. (See: 2007 LOLMWC. Smack talking Rodekill while playing in a game with him. See: present tournament, and calling your teammates retards.)

You seem to be harping on this GKG thing quite a bit. Obviously must be something going on here.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Zak » 07 Apr 2013, 05:07

To make this conversation more relevant to the original article, lets discuss GKG's claim that captains make no difference in draft tournaments, but are the biggest factor in MWC matches.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Asmodian » 08 Apr 2013, 00:45

Spiderwort was definitely on that team. He's as core Ancrik as you can get. I remember this because he popped out of nowhere for that tournament and then left. Believe Infector as well. Probably a few others as well. If I could look at the roster I'd know. Unfortunately, the wayback machine isn't permitting a look.


You are definitely thinking of 2006 when I played like 3 games in the whole tournament combined. In 2005 Pele and Ol'dirate were the only 2 players from crik that made and impact on the team. If Spiderwort was on that team he never played and you can still get films of these games from 2005 from Ducky's film pack if you really care to see for yourself.

FYI I wasn't referring to these specific Ancrik players and there was a reason I put them on my team. Although I liked most Ancrik players and seem to be good term with almost all of them, (other than you) I by no means think they were great individual players.


http://www.mythgaming.net/mwc2007/team.php?id=24

http://myth2.com/team.php?id=6

http://mwc2012.weebly.com/team-9.html

If Rodekill's leading the team, it's what we consider to be a '187' team. So yeah, pay up buddy. You got caught in a lie.


There has never been more than 3 "187" players on all of those teams you linked and one of them is blonde who ends up being absent almost every time, so way to look like an ass again.


Don't care why you responded to my post. I do care that your post showcases an intent to turn on folks who did you a favor, as per your MO. (See: 2007 LOLMWC. Smack talking Rodekill while playing in a game with him. See: present tournament, and calling your teammates retards.)


My team (MBA) never played LOLMWC in the 2007 MWC so I don't know wtf you are talking about. Even if there was something it seems that both Rodekill and I have gotten over it since we have created 3 mwc teams together since then and he is one the chillest guys on this game. Seems like you are the one that needs to get over it. Also yes I did call a few (not many) of my teammates for this draft tournament retards (By that I meant awful at myth2 and have horrible awareness) and I stand by it.

You seem to be harping on this GKG thing quite a bit. Obviously must be something going on here.


Uhhh because you brought it up several times... Come on man! There is no way you can be this stupid.

Man you aren't even good at the one thing you attempt to do in the Myth 2 community, which is trolling

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SeekerAntiVegan » 08 Apr 2013, 04:38

You are definitely thinking of 2006 when I played like 3 games in the whole tournament combined. In 2005 Pele and Ol'dirate were the only 2 players from crik that made and impact on the team. If Spiderwort was on that team he never played and you can still get films of these games from 2005 from Ducky's film pack if you really care to see for yourself.

FYI I wasn't referring to these specific Ancrik players and there was a reason I put them on my team. Although I liked most Ancrik players and seem to be good term with almost all of them, (other than you) I by no means think they were great individual players.


Ok, so you can insult Ancrik as an organization (" an ancrick team that never had any form of myth 2 success."), yet not insult specific players like Pele who spearheaded the Ancrik runs. How does that work?

In any case - link me to Ducky's film pack. I would like to take a look at it.

Though, really if I wanted to end this argument, I would just point to Ancrik's fourth place finish in MWC 2000, and leave it there. In terms of Myth success, finishing 4th out of 64 teams or so is pretty relevant.

There has never been more than 3 "187" players on all of those teams you linked and one of them is blonde who ends up being absent almost every time, so way to look like an ass again.


Oh please, everyone knows what's meant by a "187-type" team. It's the same team that's been put together since the Agents in 2004. It's basically the Rodekill squad. To even say I look like an ass here is ridiculous. As you well know my original comment referred to a "187-type" team, and not a tournament team composed of 187 members. Of course you wouldn't be on a tournament team composed mainly of those guys. They even haven't been on a tournament team composed mainly of those guys.

My team (MBA) never played LOLMWC in the 2007 MWC so I don't know wtf you are talking about. Even if there was something it seems that both Rodekill and I have gotten over it since we have created 3 mwc teams together since then and he is one the chillest guys on this game. Seems like you are the one that needs to get over it. Also yes I did call a few (not many) of my teammates for this draft tournament retards (By that I meant awful at myth2 and have horrible awareness) and I stand by it.


Well, of course your team didn't play LOLMWC. You just dummied on it. That's where the comments were made. It's also irrelevant that you made up with Rodekill, the guy's a nice fellow who is very forgiving. The issue here is that you have a history of dogging your teammates.

Uhhh because you brought it up several times... Come on man! There is no way you can be this stupid.

Man you aren't even good at the one thing you attempt to do in the Myth 2 community, which is trolling


I brought it up several times?

Link me the several times I brought it up before you made it an issue. Note: several times is more than one time.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby Asmodian » 08 Apr 2013, 05:12

Well, of course your team didn't play LOLMWC. You just dummied on it. That's where the comments were made. It's also irrelevant that you made up with Rodekill, the guy's a nice fellow who is very forgiving. The issue here is that you have a history of dogging your teammates.


PLEASE, PLEASE do link me to these films of me making these comments you speak about. I have never dummied in a tournament. I am really interested to see where these comments came from.

I find it very interesting you accuse me of being this horrible teammate yet almost everyone I have teamed with in MWC ends up teaming with me again. I guarantee 90% of the people that have teamed with me in MWC will say I am one of the most respectful and committed teammates during the time we are teaming together.

I'll be the first to admit for these draft style tournaments that have been happening lately I am probably not the best person for the job to cap these teams because I am a very competitive person and expect a certain level of play and decision making from people in a tournament setting.


Also the film pack is on the tain.

Edit: Just decided to look at the films myself and here is the roster from 05

Jiblet
Shaitan
Knight Hawk
Cyber Bob
Magellan
Ol’Dirtae
Pele
Jengizu
2 Tone (QR only)
Nico “fs”
Ba’alzamon
Kamsar
Undead (Rattle Snake’s bro)
Asmodian

and I think you might be right about Spiderwort being on the team but he never showed up to any game.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby par73 » 26 Apr 2013, 03:11

SeekerAntiVegan wrote:If Rodekill's leading the team, it's what we consider to be a '187' team. So yeah, pay up buddy. You got caught in a lie.



Rodekill was in 187?

lol

what "we" consider
because what seeker's considering has more value than his own considerations.

p.s. 187 never fielded a team for any tournament, ever.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby par73 » 26 Apr 2013, 07:25

SeekerAntiVegan wrote:

FYI I wasn't referring to these specific Ancrik players and there was a reason I put them on my team. Although I liked most Ancrik players and seem to be good term with almost all of them, (other than you) I by no means think they were great individual players.


Ok, so you can insult Ancrik as an organization (" an ancrick team that never had any form of myth 2 success."), yet not insult specific players... How does that work?


and the vast intellect of seeker fails to realize that asmo had just insulted specific players, each individual one.

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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby SeekerAntiVegan » 26 Apr 2013, 12:38

Woah, paris goes for a thread necro.

I just decided to give this one to Asmo. It was an irrelevant aside that had no bearing on GKG's article. A debate that still isn't settled in light of TWS. However, if what people are posting here is true, I appreciate GKG trying to win MWC this year with a weaker squad.

As for your points - they are misleading.

The players in question like Pele are pretty much Ancrik the organization. You can't say Ancrik never had any form of myth 2 success, and not insult a player like Pele while making that comment. It was pretty clear what was meant there. You took it out of context.

Also - regarding your comment about 187 - continue reading the thread. I already addressed it.

Regardless, I've argued this topic enough, and ultimately it's pointless. The views are set.

I dislike well over 90% of the folks who still play this game. It's a dislike that overcomes the awesome game play that this game contains. You guys dislike me too. I consider you all to be a bunch of a rank wankers who treat the MWC as your tournament to determine "who is the comet," because the real ranking system is screwed up. You view me as the guy who spoils your fun with 'sub-standard play' and a distinct lack of care. I view you as a wanker. You view me as a wanker.

I'm ok with this impasse. It's deserved. Opinions have set in, all of them deserved on all parties.

Good luck in your life paris. I hope you do well.


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Re: GKG's School of Myth Strategy - The Captain Factor

Postby par73 » 31 Dec 2013, 18:07

what the hell is this

SeekerAntiVegan wrote:
Asmo wrote:3. I care what GKG thinks of me? No, or I would have been sucking up to him or any other person for that matter for years to try and get on a top team.


Don't care why you responded to my post. I do care that your post showcases an intent to turn on folks who did you a favor, as per your MO. (See: 2007 LOLMWC. Smack talking Rodekill while playing in a game with him. See: present tournament, and calling your teammates retards.)

You seem to be harping on this GKG thing quite a bit. Obviously must be something going on here.[/quote]


In hindsight Asmo always did suck up to everyone to try to join power teams

Even back to BME in 04, I guess seeker just gave up this battle because he realized a walking talking plethora of shit knows no limits to affirm a delusional reality is relentless.

har


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