So what is the deal with Deadhold?

A single berserk reached us yesterday, after having come all the way over the mountains from the city of Willow, fourteen hundred miles away. He delivered to Alric a single package the size of a man's fist, wrapped in rags, and refuses to talk with anyone about events in the West.
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So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby grim » 28 Feb 2016, 16:46

Is that project still going on? Is the game being released or did they just cancel it? Their forum appears to be dead with some jibberjabber about using different engines. I heard it was supposed to be the next best thing to Myth IV and kinda got my hopes up, but I guess one should never do that when it comes signs of hope for our tiny dead little community of ours.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby par73 » 28 Feb 2016, 16:51

forums are outdated bro, if you're actually interested you should request an invite to their discord discussion from fisj or zaramis.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Revan » 28 Feb 2016, 17:14

I think they went down the road of making it more like LoL and Dota.. so.. its automatic shit in my book. Shame. It did look promising.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby BIG KROK V8 SS » 28 Feb 2016, 19:02

MYTH 4 IS COMING SOON

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Revan » 28 Feb 2016, 19:19

BIG KROK V8 SS wrote:MYTH 4 IS COMING SOON


I haven't even started development.

I just wrote the story..

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Pogue » 28 Feb 2016, 22:59

Where is Renwood with the Myth 4 updates?


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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Lord---Scary Owl » 01 Mar 2016, 02:22

LOL good ol' cheezefist articles

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Zak » 01 Mar 2016, 07:52

They realized that it would pale in comparison to Mythhold™ and promptly abandoned the project.

http://hl.udogs.net/files/Uploads/%20Us ... holdv2.zip

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby grim » 01 Mar 2016, 09:49

Why did you ruin myth's future, Zak?

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby BIG KROK V8 SS » 01 Mar 2016, 13:13

Why do you still exist, grim?

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby par73 » 01 Mar 2016, 19:35

deadhold is now on a promising new engine, the dev team is hard at work with what little resources they have to finish an alpha.
i really don't see why the players who have shown up on GOS are not more involved with this project.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby DBSeeker » 01 Mar 2016, 23:04

Cu bullied us into rejecting Deadhold.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby sharkdrivingabus » 01 Mar 2016, 23:36

grim wrote:Is that project still going on? Is the game being released or did they just cancel it? Their forum appears to be dead with some jibberjabber about using different engines. I heard it was supposed to be the next best thing to Myth IV and kinda got my hopes up, but I guess one should never do that when it comes signs of hope for our tiny dead little community of ours.


I don't know what you're bitching about grim. I saw it in theaters and it was great.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby BIG KROK V8 SS » 02 Mar 2016, 14:18

isn't deadhold basically like every other 3d strategy game out there? Myth is the best because of sprites, not polygons. Its a lot more accurate and makes for better multiplayer. Any new game with a different engine would basically have a skill cap that means good players really aren't much better than really shitty players. in Myth, there really is no contest between good and shitty.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby switch » 02 Mar 2016, 22:11

Which engine did they change to?

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby BIG KROK V8 SS » 03 Mar 2016, 03:39

Probably a hybrid 2-stroke V-twin.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby dac » 03 Mar 2016, 17:46

switch wrote:Which engine did they change to?


they switched from unreal to unity, or vice versa. i dont know which. i lost interest in their progress pretty quickly when i saw the moba type spells, seems like itll likely have a good campaign but i got serious doubts about the pvp

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Revan » 03 Mar 2016, 19:55

dac wrote:
switch wrote:Which engine did they change to?


they switched from unreal to unity, or vice versa. i dont know which. i lost interest in their progress pretty quickly when i saw the moba type spells, seems like itll likely have a good campaign but i got serious doubts about the pvp


Holy crap say it ain't so...

Unity? LOL

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby dac » 03 Mar 2016, 22:23

Revan wrote:
dac wrote:
switch wrote:Which engine did they change to?


they switched from unreal to unity, or vice versa. i dont know which. i lost interest in their progress pretty quickly when i saw the moba type spells, seems like itll likely have a good campaign but i got serious doubts about the pvp


Holy crap say it ain't so...

Unity? LOL


what do you know about the different standard game engines, my gender neutral named friend?

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Cutard » 03 Mar 2016, 22:57

Not a fan at all of the AOE spells like others said here.

Myth is unique in that all the "spells" are grounded with the physics, so you get scenarios like: Am I throwing downhill? When is he clumping? What if it duds/bounces? Does he have a probable pus ghol nearby? Can I bait him to clump and attack 3 melee with 7 of his? It takes a hell of a lot of skill and even a little luck to pus a good player and gain a significant advantage in melee. Many times you'd have to settle with just the threat of pussing them to take advantage with something else.

Clicking and casting defense attributes on your units is comparatively very meh.

tl;dr: fuck you grim

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby grim » 04 Mar 2016, 21:10

http://www.mythgaming.net/mwc2007/forum ... c.php?t=34

That was one fucking terrible bombay, Cu.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Cutard » 04 Mar 2016, 22:03

You'd have to be a native speaker of english to get it, grim.


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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Renwood » 05 Mar 2016, 03:16

Well Deadhold seems fated to be chasing the global phenomenon that is the dota2 and LoL moba mold. Very unmythy, and very generic IMHO. But then again, why would they want to make game that is based on a dead limb of the RTS family tree with the dead end that is the RTT Genre? Even in it's hay day Myth TFL and Myth 2 and even myth 3, all sold around 250,000 copies. This is NOT high sales figures.

But, where there is currently NO audience, one CAN be created by the hundreds of millions if you capture people's imaginations and make something FUN. Hell Dota was a FUCKING MOD. A FUCKING MOD for Warcraft 3. And LoL is a spin off of the 2 man team that made the original Dota mod. So if a fucking MOD can great hundreds of millions of players after a few years, then there is no reason Myth and RTT need to be dead and burried. Myth is UNdead

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby grim » 05 Mar 2016, 07:16

Actually I just noticed the bombay was made by "Mr Scruffleton" and not you. My bad.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby NewMutator » 05 Mar 2016, 12:30

I think Deadhold looks better now in unity than it did in Unreal4. Waiting on some alpha gameplay videos.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Revan » 05 Mar 2016, 17:28

Seeing how little is being shown or talked about this game and it's switch to Unity just screams that this will be one of those Early Access shits on Steam that'll never get finished.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby BIG KROK V8 SS » 06 Mar 2016, 13:57

Compared to the hundreds of other Myth-like games that have been made since Myth's inception, how was this one supposed to be any different anyway? And why did everyone in this community get so excited about it?

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby par73 » 06 Mar 2016, 15:40

that's quite the sarcastic tone.
where's the everyone in this community that got so excited about it?

old engine:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4XxED4eA50[/youtube]

new engine:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDPoVipEhYU[/youtube]
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dueKyv9Q87I[/youtube]

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Revan » 06 Mar 2016, 17:28

BIG KROK V8 SS wrote:Compared to the hundreds of other Myth-like games that have been made since Myth's inception, how was this one supposed to be any different anyway? And why did everyone in this community get so excited about it?


I don't know any games that ever even reminded me of Myth..

Wasn't this being made by some myth veterans such as the dudes from Vista Cartel? (Fetchball makers)

It looks like it'll be a polished Myth 3 at best.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby par73 » 06 Mar 2016, 18:00

if only using 2d sprites in a 3d world appealed to more people.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Cutard » 06 Mar 2016, 18:13

I think people like sprites because the shapes you see from the units are far less varied than if it were all 3D models with complex animations. A mass of units in a melee looks pretty clean, familiar and so is very easily readable. This is obviously even more important if you're playing the game competitively.

Blizzard did a nice job when they went with 3D models for starcraft 2, I still prefer the look of starcraft 1, though.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby switch » 06 Mar 2016, 20:16

Deadhold should introduce unit fatigue, destructible terrain, variable unit armouring (perhaps randomly generated, or set by some kind of option pre-game), and unit degradation from wounding.
In my fantasy world they'll also include some kind of procedural map generation system.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jRlGwZgH64[/youtube]

Deadhold vs Myth 3?

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Lord---Scary Owl » 06 Mar 2016, 22:19

wow, awful unit looks

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Pogue » 06 Mar 2016, 23:23

That video stinks on ice. So do the people talking in it.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby wwo » 07 Mar 2016, 01:11

I hope that 2nd video is really old.

He first shows the pathfinding of the squad (I'll use this term, and leave "unit" to describe the individual warriors) by going around an obstacle, and getting back into formation. Then he says "the units (squad) move in formation," but then demonstrates by only moving it a short distance in a straight line. Clearly, squads do not move in formation, something that has very distinct tactical uses different from simply reforming at the end of a move.

It's this kind of confusion and lack of understanding of super-basic concepts that eroded my expectations for this game.

(The graphics are just placeholders. Commenting on that should disqualify you from ever levying a critique again.)

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby limp » 07 Mar 2016, 07:57

It is becoming more and more apparent that the Deadhold developers have no idea what type of game they are making. It truly seems that they are just taking the skeleton of Myth 3 and sloppily combining it with MOBA gameplay, which realistically appeals to absolutely no one.

Simply put, there is no competing with the juggernauts of LOL/DOTA2/HOTS/HON. People expect something very specific from a MOBA and from the looks of Deadhold's development, the MOBA aspect of the game is purely shoehorned in to hopefully appeal to MOBA players. It will not.

Conversely, it is completely unclear why they have decided to use Myth's general physics and style, only to paste a completely different type of game into it. They are in effect, bastardizing both of the game styles that they are trying to merge together. From the outside looking in, remedying this seems glaringly obvious, even through the lens of my bias.

As I stated earlier, there really is no point trying to make a new MOBA, enormous game developers have already cornered that market. The RTT market is literally nonexistent, meaning that this avenue is completely ripe for exploration and renewal, but despite basing the entire look of the game on Myth, the developers seem to be adamantly opposed to making a spiritual successor, for some inexplicable and ultimately stupid reason.

Even more perplexing is the fact that the developers asked for the Myth community's opinion, only to ignore almost every single thing any one of us has said. This thing is looking more and more doomed every time I hear about it or research it at all.

Ultimately, they can either choose to make a broken MOBA no one will play, or they can recreate a game style that hasn't been explored in almost 2 decades, potentially creating an entirely new market through it. Unfortunately for all of us, they seem completely engulfed in option #1.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby grim » 07 Mar 2016, 09:15

Crap.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby NewMutator » 07 Mar 2016, 09:31

Well, I for one am pleased with the progress that's being made, and look forward to seeing more in an upcoming video with updated systems in place. I withhold judgment knowing that what's been shared so far is not even close to being the finished product. I think the team is doing a lot more work than it would appear at a glance, since they basically built and rebuilt a lot of core features of the game with an eye to polishing the cosmetics after the mechanics are in place.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby par73 » 07 Mar 2016, 12:15

wwo wrote:It's this kind of confusion and lack of understanding of super-basic concepts that eroded my expectations for this game.

they did eviler things in the original engine, those units moving/not moving in formation. im glad their ancestors are dead *hic*
wwo, these videos are not directed towards the unknowing myth community (like limp checking in on the discord once every 6 months) but people who have been keeping up to date with their saturday night play tests and previous alpha test videos.
perhaps its your input, maybe the simplifying of super-basic concepts, is just what this project is missing.


limp wrote:i said things, i think i just saw a moba.

wait deadhold is a moba? what video did you look at limp? All i posted was videos of a completely unfinished game.
let me address your troll post about deadhold being a moba (maybe its coz only moba you play is hots that you would think such perverted things)

mobas are simply a subgenre of rts, where you control a single character in one of two teams.
hard to compete with them for sure, some even think m2 was killed by its ww2 'moba-like' variant.
ive yet to play a game of dead hold where i only control one unit start to finish, or what have you.

pretty perplexing is that the myth community feels their opinion to be ignored, when they've done little to provide any input except post on forums only they view and the developers of the game do not.

sure the 'rtt market' is more nonexistent, than the rts market. but games like total war: atilla and warhammer 20k are still actively played rtts
the biggest difference in rts and rtt, in fact perhaps the only notable one, is that in rtt you don't gather resources to build armies.
i don't see how this game misses the mark with that, must be that lens bias.

the only 3d recreation of m2 was in m3.
its really not surprising to see someone make comparisons with that, but its interesting to see the community man here try and compare deadhold to something its not (a moba, myth 2, myth 3, a fully released game, a game ready for beta).

you wanted to get metaphoric and from my lens of bias i see it differently.
if we were sharing lens, i would have to tell you "deadhold is the skeleton itself, which realistically appeals to absolutely no one".
but through my lens, deadhold is still a fetus, there is life force.
dead hold isn't meant to compete with MOBAS or gaming juggernauts, regardless of if it ever will or not.
DH's looking to recreate a game that hasn't been explored in over a decade. the last time it was attempted, it failed.

ultimately, they're not making a MOBA, and they're not recreating a "game style";
most of us who take a quick peek, note the similarities to myth or the dreaded myth3, and say seeya are making a choice to not support it;
the game might be better off for this, as well as the people who already kept in touch with a game released in the 1990s for almost 20 years.
coming from the perspective of a myth player, approaching the idea of deadhold with recreation, rather than creation, will bear less fruit.
if you think deadhold's purpose is to cater to and please the dwindled myth population, it makes sense why you haven't made your way to any alpha tests with the devs.

of course, better than using our own opinion on figuring out what deadhold is, i think it would be best if the devs made a statement addressing it. maybe they already have. Maybe their definition of the game has changed since they made one.
Better yet, during playtest sessions (there's more going on than a few videos being made), you can ask them what their vision is...
i most certainly think its not a broken moba or recreating a game style.
i thought they wanted something like any of the games from the myth series, i was wrong. we talked about it.

in regards to your marketing ideas limp, i don't think the approach is to corner the market, or create a market that is 'non-existent'
speaking of the market, the strategy avenue is far from ripe for exploration and renewal, it's growth has been outpaced by first-person shooters and one-unit "action real time strategies" (mobas).
how many copies did tfl/m2/m3 sell? with efforts of a team as a whole, financed assets and the ability to make the game accessible to millions of gamers around the world through platforms like steam the potential to top those combined initial sales is better than ever.

right now in terms of finances, DH is pushing the project for free besides licensed products or donations. I'm pretty sure they had to buy that new engine in order to use it, they knew the old engine which premiered deadhold just simply won't work with the vision they have in mind.

the product needs to be marketable in order to acquire better assets, this includes later endgame release strategies like the ability to host dedicated servers or donating to popular streamers to give the game a try live.
you see the skeleton limp, i see the fetus. we don't know whats there, it's not done yet. this isn't myth 3 which is dead and gone (launched on gamespy, dead and gone)

limp wrote:It is becoming more and more apparent that the Deadhold developers have no idea what type of game they are making.

It is becoming more and more apparent that the myth community have no idea what type of game the Deadhold developers are making.
maybe "we" would have a better idea of this and more impact on the final product if "we" did something about it. the players with more time than others. but boo-hoo, "we" don't. "we" have enough trouble getting 3 full games worth of players on the server, hence most of "we" don't bother logging on at all.
wee

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby par73 » 07 Mar 2016, 12:20

Revan wrote:It looks like it'll be a polished Myth 3 at best.


Lord---Scary Owl wrote:wow, awful unit looks

those are initial models on a new engine, again the game is far from finished. it already 'looks' like a polished myth 3, if production continues i can't wait to see how the game looks.
it is so alpha you mistake it for omega, if you ask them for access to the game they will even tell you what you're playing is still a very rough idea.


Pogue wrote:That video stinks on ice. So do the people talking in it.

cocaine booze and hookers 3rd party map on its way bro

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby DBSeeker » 07 Mar 2016, 18:14

There are good points in par's post. However, it's difficult to decipher. Shorter paragraphs please.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby wwo » 07 Mar 2016, 22:35

I'm still pulling for them. The genre is criminally underserved. But I do want them to get their terminology straight.

I think using Myth as a hype stepping stone was a terrible idea. Too many expectations. I've seen what they're doing, and it's fine on its own. It also looks more customizable than originally presented, even if they don't provide full support for modding. They need to get a simplified, playable alpha out.

p.s. Unreal engine and Unity are both free. Paid licenses get more support and pre-fabs.

p.p.s. Dawn of War 2 went moba-lite, and turned off most many of the originals' fans. I think that's what limp was trying to relate. But also, no-base-building doesn't automatically mean rtt, any more than interactive dialogs = rpg.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby par73 » 07 Mar 2016, 23:02

imo rtt has more to do with not acquiring resources than it ever did with 'base building'.
setting up for the mid hill on barb valley dark lmoth, clash assassin camp fests or last-stand defenses on desert are the closest we'll ever get to base building on m2 lol.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Giant Killer General » 08 Mar 2016, 02:03

par73 wrote:wait deadhold is a moba?


par73 wrote:ultimately, they're not making a MOBA


Actually, yes it is an RTS/MOBA hybrid as described by the developers themselves (as stated here and elsewhere). You can google Deadhold MOBA and get several results of gaming websites describing it the same way because that is how they are packaging and selling the idea of the game in their several press releases / announcements.

So according to the words of Deadhold developers themselves and the rest of the gaming media, limp is correct in describing it as a MOBA, and you're whole post is blatantly false in trying to argue otherwise. Please spare us all from further stupidity in the future. Thanks.

Signed,
The Myth Community

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby par73 » 08 Mar 2016, 21:41

Giant Killer General wrote:
par73 wrote:wait deadhold is a moba?


par73 wrote:ultimately, they're not making a MOBA


Actually, yes it is an RTS/MOBA hybrid as described by the developers themselves (as stated here and elsewhere). You can google Deadhold MOBA and get several results of gaming websites describing it the same way because that is how they are packaging and selling the idea of the game in their several press releases / announcements.

So according to the words of Deadhold developers themselves and the rest of the gaming media, limp is correct in describing it as a MOBA, and you're whole post is blatantly false in trying to argue otherwise. Please spare us all from further stupidity in the future. Thanks.

Signed,
The Myth Community


maybe in 2014 or whenever that post was, it was supposed to be a moba, who knows;
that post was made long before they changed to the new engine which created even more opportunity for control and design..

such a reach, like calling dh a moba, but I'll take it.

Myth Community logic
~"RTS/MOBA hybrid" = "MOBA"~
~"Deadhold" = "MOBA"~

Par73 logic
~"MOBA = RTS hybrid"~
as
~"Deadhold = RTS hybrid"~



I'm not really sure what Deadhold is yet, it's certainly not anything I'd consider a MOBA;
Deadhold reminds me of an RTS with global spells/buffs/debuffs, like Age of Mythology.
Perhaps, it is being marketed as a "MOBA" to attract the leading PC gaming population
One can label/advertise their product however one choses; why market for anything other than success?;
But seriously, MOBA is one hero with team + objectives and Deadhold is not.
Have you tried deadhold or MOBAs before? The comparison isn't there, what a troll-bait joke.
Mazzarin's Demise is more of a MOBA than deadhold is, I guess you have tried MOBAs!

At it's current state Deadhold is not a MOBA. you can choose to believe that if you want, have at it.
Where MOBAs are "one-unit" action real time strategies, Deadhold looks to be a "multi-unit" action real time strategy.

Google search "deadhold moba" and link is "Deadhold MOBA+RTS"; "deadhold rts" and link is "deadhold squad based action RTS game"
Simply google "Deadhold" and you see nothing in the top searches about about Dead Hold being a MOBA, and instead about Deadhold being a "squad based action RTS game" or a "Multiplayer Action Real Time Strategy".
"Squad based" sounds like it could possibly mean the same thing as "multi-unit", We'll have to get an official quote from the official Myth Community spokes person about official comparisons, officially.
I guess for now, for me, Deadhold is a squad based action real time strategy, just like how the "Google Engine"/"Gaming Media" told me.

Sorry bros, you're wrong too,
Let's agree to disagree.
Signed,
Me, Par73

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby Giant Killer General » 08 Mar 2016, 22:23

So next time, you can frame your page-long reply calling limp a liar, troll, etc., instead as a difference of opinion. Maybe you should have agreed to disagree earlier before you made yourself look like an idiot.

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby par73 » 08 Mar 2016, 22:27

Giant Killer General wrote:So next time, you can frame your page-long reply calling limp a liar, troll, etc., instead as a difference of opinion. Maybe you should have agreed to disagree earlier before you made yourself look like an idiot.


meh i called you a liar and troll, i guess you missed it?
i never called limp a liar, did call him a troll though. i guess i'm calling you a liar again.
maybe next time i can format it better so its more comprehensible

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Re: So what is the deal with Deadhold?

Postby punkUser » 08 Mar 2016, 22:38

Honestly "MOBA" is a ridiculously meaningless name that is basically information free; it sucks that the term caught on in the first place. "Action RTS" as Valve terms DOTA is a much more appropriate name. Deadhold certainly qualifies as the latter, although from the recent videos it still trends more towards the RTS side than the "DOTA-like" side. Lots of game genres have units with abilities; without lanes and creeps it's not really like DOTA yet.

Calling stuff like Dawn of War 2 (or any Relic RTS) "MOBA-lite" is a bit silly: they are RTS games, through and through. RTS does not require base building as many games in the past have demonstrated. Whatever you want to term Myth its main differentiation is that you don't (usually) acquire any units during the game.


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