MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

par73
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MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby par73 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:35 pm

Hello everyone!
You will not find QR3 maps or DE scheduling here in this thread, you should go to the concise thread for information on those topics.

If you've been participating or observing the games, matches and lobbies so far, I hope you've been enjoying your time spent.

After two weeks of play the tournament has seen its fair share of blow outs, close matches and Kryptos.
Why Kryptos?

This summer, fresh off his victorious MWC15, season Kryptos has emerged as an all-star caliber player in the Myth World Cup Scene. He has played in 25 of the 40 games played so far in this tournament and complimented his teams' nicely with an 18-7 effort.
Kryptos is utilizing the "Myth Player Market" to its full extent, influencing match results and finding pay day for him and his teammates.

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Kryptos and Coca-Cola look to seal the deal for Gods of Myth on Calm Before The Storm Territories in QR1 by taking out Boom Town's remaining dwarf.

Congrats Kryp, well done. You have the TO's vote for QR MVP so far, but we'll have to see how week 3 turns out to iron out final judgement.
Coca-Cola has done damn well as one of this years mystery MWC players. I look forward to see what he continues to bring to the table.

Image
With only one life to live, YOLO of PoR looks to take out KaO of Ageha and goes unrewarded due to the dancing moves of the butterfly.

On the other side of things YOLO has done well to rig and sabotage his teams chances of having a playful DE1 opponent. So far YOLO has gone a whopping 0-14 in two weeks of MWC play, we have yet to see a flash of his PUB-STAR abilities in this tournament so I look forward to his future opportunities as he comes across them. Let's just hope the losing doesn't get to him, you only live once anyway.

Image
KaO of course returns the favor by hacking YOLO to pieces while he's distracted when typing out his request for a heal.
Thereafter, the Warlock reveals his recipe for converting mass to Campbell's Tomato Soup.


Looking forward I'd like to address QR Point averages, because next weekend calculating them to seed the DE seeding is important in making them worth more than pre-season scrimmages. The seeding has started to take form for the double-elimination rounds, below are the averages for the teams so far which will be used to determine their seeds. This is where I like the point system taking effect, and I hope you can appreciate it as well.

Averages Underlined
BT 21 8-2
Syn 12 7-3
GoM 8 6-4
Age 3 5-5
tINh 0 4-6
TWF -1.5 5-5
ni -9.5 4-6
PoR -32 1-9

On a side note, the overall W-L records of the teams looks something out of LoL's seasonally televised LCK league, with one team really low and a large middile pack it's only missing a team who's lost 0 games.

Winds of Change: A look at the difference between W-T-L and the MWC16 Point System

I.e., if we were using W-T-L the seeding would be: age TWF tied at 4-5 seeds and tinh and ni tied at 6-7 seed going into week 3, with GoM lingering if PoR upset the expectations of Myth Nation this weekend despite having their roster ravaged rather than supported by the Myth Player Market. While, the seeds stay tightly contested between 4 or 5 teams in the tournament, teams like tinh twf and ni are rewarded for having wildly inconsistent results across their first two match ups.

The point system takes the results, and while those 5 teams stay contested other stages are set as well. Sure, BT and PoR have likely sealed their #1 #8 QR seeds with a reunion this weekend. But GoM is only 9 MWC pts away from catching Syn in regards to their differential results next week, and with the MPM's fluid rosters a theme of mwc16 has been expect the unexpected. twf and ni have a date to settle their differences in qr3, where twf must win the match by 2 MWC pts to overtake them in the seeding. With a maximum of 3 opportunities to play in the 4 matches this weekend, players have plenty of chances to land their stakes in the achievement contest. With rosters relatively open for all teams, expect some extra commitment this weekend to rig QR results.

In the very unlikely event of a tied average of QR pts, ties will be broken with wins, then difficulty of schedule based on their opponents overall results. A persistent tie here would continue in the event that the two tied teams played against the same opponents, and their QR match results would break the tie. This help amends the basic "Match victories are based on points, QR Seeding is based on avg point differential. Be sure to throw your matches and play for 3 teams per week if you want to throw a curve ball into Asmodian's QR Mystery Predictions.

Image
This is an image of taking a screen shot to accept forfeit matches when you have at least half a teams worth of players to play against no-show opponents. Surely, East Wind just wanted to go collect ratios against team idiot over 10 years ago.
But this is worth bringing up because there have been no forfeit matches so far in the tournament and I just wanted to say thanks for showing up to play in this scheduled myth marathon taking course of the summer.


Image
Unrelated: TB and samuel were there too ;)

Before deciding on what to do in MWC I wanted to make a change to the DE format, but in light of changing to a triple elimination formation format for TWS I decided against it. You 'bois' get butthurt enough about having to rematch your opponents on the same map, gametype and time limit ffs :)

The idea was that there would be two pools of 4 teams to play in best of 5's for QRs, (or one pool of 8 teams playing best of 3's), and website function would support have the feature for scheduling flexibility to meet with 7 opponents across 3 weeks for best of 3's (and obviously for the simple one per week, four per pool). The idea is based off how Valve runs The International for their MWC of Dota 2.

With two pools of four:
    Top two teams in each group advance to upper bracket of the DE, bottom two teams in each group advance to lower bracket of the DE.
With one pool of eight:
    Top four teams in each group advance to upper bracket of the DE, bottom four teams to the lower bracket

Here's an example:
Image
This essentially means QR performance can directly provide a team's first elimination in the top bracket, and helps the myth marathon that is Myth World Cup end in a timely manner.
Anyone who enjoys discussion on tournament format, I'd like to hear your thoughts below.

Finally in the News is a scoring change for DE. Currently KOTM is scored in a 3-0 5-0 9-0 format that will be changing from (losing time/winning time)=(x/1) and using [1.0-.89/.88-.78/.79-.00 + win = 0/2/6 +3 for win] to associate scoring. I believe a better way to represent the mastery of your opponents in a multi-flag CTF is to build the scores off times.
Image
Above is a game where one team has 4 flags captured before the other team so hopefully the scoring should help clear things up for teams looking to give their opponents a hard time and reward those looking to play King of the Map to be Kings of the Map! The new scoring will be 1pt per 12 minutes accumulated, 0 for win (on 13 flag games). This scoring change will be effective at the start of the DE rounds, and might have subtle differences based on the map's flag count.

Thanks for reading, playing, whatever, it's been great to see the people spend some time playing this timeless game this summer. With about 3/4 of the tournament left to go we can look forward to about a month and a half more of MWC season to go! Cheers.

Asmodian
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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby Asmodian » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:27 pm

Ok, I don't mean to be a dick, but there is no other way to save whatever integrity is left of MWC (1st,2nd & 3rd team players :roll: ).

Tirri and I already saved myth from a x64 zoom so terrible tunnel vision players could play this game like it's Starcraft. Now yours truly AsmoTrowBeltDian will fight for the integrity of myth once more.


1st: your vision of how the QR will be affecting the DE is a joke.

With two pools of four:
Top two teams in each group advance to upper bracket of the DE, bottom two teams in each group advance to lower bracket of the DE.


This would be fine if you mentioned this BEFORE THE START OF THE TOURNAMENT. You can't throw something in like this when the QR is about over and the standings are more or less decided. TiNH & TWF would of course had better showings/effort week 1 if they realized the results would potentially knock 1 of the 2 straight into the bottom bracket.

I didn't sign up a team/individually for this tournament to play some scrub teams 4 weeks straight and possibly never having the chance of playing the most intriguing teams being Twf & TiNH because they have to play out of the bottom bracket.


2nd: Scrap the damn scoring system. It was ok for the QR, it's not ok for the DE. There is a reason MWC changed to Wins/losses because it's straight up better in every regard.

No one plays the scoring system during the middle of the match, no one knows it well enough and no one cares about it. People play to win the game, not win some artificial scoring system (unless maybe you're Ratking who says maxed after each game, although there were none of those for syn week 2 :lol: ).

Here's an example of how awful the scoring system is with your "great" new idea for KOTM scoring.

Above is a game where one team has 4 flags captured before the other team so hopefully the scoring should help clear things up for teams looking to give their opponents a hard time and reward those looking to play King of the Map to be Kings of the Map! The new scoring will be 1pt per 12 minutes accumulated, 0 for win (on 13 flag games). This scoring change will be effective at the start of the DE rounds, and might have subtle differences based on the map's flag count.


First of all 0 points for a WIN, WTF? Yeah because winning isn't the whole goal of every team game ever played.

so essentially in KOTM one team could get 48 mins of flag time and the other team could win a close match with 51 minutes. The final result of the match according to the point system? 4-4 for each team...

Do I really need to explain further? I think not.


Win/losses/ties with SD games to decide ties or I'm taking my talents to another game

- 'smo

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby Lord---Scary Owl » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:37 pm

par73 wrote:Image
Kryptos and Coca-Cola look to seal the deal for Gods of Myth on Calm Before The Storm Territories in QR1 by taking out Boom Town's remaining dwarf.

Congrats Kryp, well done. You have the TO's vote for QR MVP so far, but we'll have to see how week 3 turns out to iron out final judgement.
Coca-Cola has done damn well as one of this years mystery MWC players. I look forward to see what he continues to bring to the table.



Kryptos and coke have done well.

But there has been some left hidden in this match.

#1 - toxyn and ratking completely annihilated shadow and cruniac in the north allowing them to help down south

#2 - even thought that might have been the last dwarf, they had about 3 of which other players killed

#3 - this was one of the maps were scarymonsters death was not his fault

limp
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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby limp » Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:00 pm

paris ~invents stakes that punish losing teams for the QR after the QR is already more than halfway complete


brilliant!

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby Ratking » Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:49 pm

I agree with the w-t-l format for DE. Whatever we have been doing in DE for MWC in the recent past seems to work fine.

Glad to see smo has his swagger back. I wasn't sure if he was going to recover post TWS. I look forward to crushing him in DE.

par73
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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby par73 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:12 pm

Asmodian wrote:1st: your vision of how the QR will be affecting the DE is a joke.

With two pools of four:
Top two teams in each group advance to upper bracket of the DE, bottom two teams in each group advance to lower bracket of the DE.


This would be fine if you mentioned this BEFORE THE START OF THE TOURNAMENT. You can't throw something in like this when the QR is about over and the standings are more or less decided. TiNH & TWF would of course had better showings/effort week 1 if they realized the results would potentially knock 1 of the 2 straight into the bottom bracket.


par73 wrote:Before deciding on what to do in MWC I wanted to make a change to the DE format, but ... I decided against it.


I just thought I would bring it up after seeing your bitch and moan in some other thread about how securing the best seed means you play against worst seed in the tournament.
This style would have completely avoided the scenario the 1, 2, 7, 8 seeds will be facing in the top bracket.

Also I highly doubt tinh or twf would have had better showings/effort in week 1 because they don't really give a shit about qr seeds, the only person who does is the captain of boom town.
especially since tinh brought their roster together with 3-4 days until their first game and added most of their roster who can show up in week 2, while every other roster was together with at least a month in advance.

also whether tinh/twf cared or not, with the current results, their match this weekend would decide who would be knocked into the bottom bracket in that scenario. quite the fitting way for things to be decided, but be that as it may, I already said this was a scenario I was looking at to use before the tournament started and it would have been reflected in the rules... 'so maybe teams would care more'.

Asmodian wrote:I didn't sign up a team/individually for this tournament to play some scrub teams 4 weeks straight and possibly never having the chance of playing the most intriguing teams being Twf & TiNH because they have to play out of the bottom bracket.

If TiNH and TWF are the most intriguing teams, why are they playing out of the bottom bracket? Those teams don't care as much as you think. They are also built around friend groups rather than recruiting the best players possible regardless of personal biases between the players.

So schedule scrimmages, or blame Rudlophs for making an effort to play in some scheduled myth team games this summer when they aren't invited to any Reindeer games. Seriously, if your team is that bored, challenge another team to a scrim. You've complained to make a request for a more challenging schedule for your team, you've complained about a more challenging scheduling system I did not end up implementing. Tell me Asmo, If I ask black, will you answer white or rainbow?

I also doubt the QR pools would be assigned the way they are if tINh had registered before the tournament or during the pre-registration, tINh basically filled in the 8th spot at the last minute during the beginning of scheduling.



Asmodian wrote:Here's an example of how awful the scoring system is with your "great" new idea for KOTM scoring.

First of all 0 points for a WIN, WTF? Yeah because winning isn't the whole goal of every team game ever played.

so essentially in KOTM one team could get 48 mins of flag time and the other team could win a close match with 51 minutes. The final result of the match according to the point system? 4-4 for each team...

Do I really need to explain further? I think not.

No need to reply
however is it not the goal to win a game of king of the map to get the most time on the map that's possible with your team anyway?
I wanted to affirm the pre-existing KotM scoring was fair if it was used in the DE, and I believe you have also affirmed my belief the 'new' idea for KotM scoring would be much more efficient in a QR where KotM was played an even amount of times per round, I agree there is no point in fixing what is not broken.

The teams wouldn't need points for a win because the win comes with taking your opponent off the map and leaving them unable to capture anymore of your flags while you continue to rack up time.

You are not considering plenty of variables here when it comes to king of the map. if one team gets 48 minutes of flag time and the other team gets 51 minutes on a 13 flag map with 12 minutes of game time, then both of those teams are awful and I don't see why an awful performance where they avoided controlling flags shouldn't be rewarded a 0 point differential in their game, forcing a tiebreaker on another map and gametype they can comprehend. every team last week who won their games of KotM all went over the medium time with the given flag and minute scenario. So yea, 48 or 51 minutes are only time of losing teams regardless. Your example sets precedents to awfulness, but I am more here to discuss rather than play your childish Ad Hom games.

using 'realistic' examples from last week's 12 min 13 flag KotM games rather than random times thrown together that obviously tie with the given scoring system but would only result if the teams left flags uncontested:
TinH and Syn had the only non-maxed KotM score last week and ended 66:43 - 80:54 with both teams actively competing for flags. the others were 32:114 123:21 and 60:86. The current scoring system has age just missing the margin when it came to not being maxed by GoM. But as you can see age vs gom and tinh vs syn had much closer games in terms of time, meanwhile twf and bt still get their max points over por and noobs inc. when it comes to a "point system" based on variably rewarding teams for their performance, which is the goal of the qr point system, the "new but not being used" KotM scoring would work out and meet the standard of 9 pts maximum when balanced across rounds.

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby Asmodian » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:18 pm

I think you realized your ideas are terrible as you had no good arguments in any of your responses.

I don't care about QR seeding. I do care that my team has/had a month of wasted games against teams that aren't anywhere near our level.


If TiNH and TWF are the most intriguing teams, why are they playing out of the bottom bracket? Those teams don't care as much as you think. They are also built around friend groups rather than recruiting the best players possible regardless of personal biases between the players.


I realize they don't care other than to play some myth, practically no one does, but that's not the reason that one of them would be playing out of the bottom bracket. It would be because there was NO RULES and no one realized the QR had any significant impact on the DE rounds.


Also schedule scrimmages :roll: . Scrimmages/practices always have had bad turnouts for 6+ years. You really think 2 teams are going to show with something similar to their roster for a match that has no impact on MWC? Not happening.


Dude, give it up on the point system it is terrible. Every game should have equal weight for a win or loss and that's why every 2t team sport decides games based solely on wins/losses/ties (The only exception being some tournaments in Soccer because the players would break if they played more than a couple games in a week).

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby Phos » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:51 pm

While I am personally a fan of the point system in general, the current state of Myth leads me to conclude it is not a good fit for MWC 2016 DE. When most players just show up for matches without much planning or practice, it means most players have no clue how the point system affects the match, so I think KISS is the way to go and wholeheartedly recommend dropping the point system

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby limp » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:24 pm

Removing my team from the tournament if you go through with this "plan" probably via planned forfeit.

It would be one thing if you had stated before the tournament began that the QR would have stakes other than seeding, but you did not. Instead you have essentially decided entirely new rules after more than half of the QR matches have occurred, making what happened in them carry more weight than anyone playing in any of the games realized. This is blatant cheating, or flat out stupidity.

As it stands, you essentially plan to cripple the teams who have already done poorly in the QR and earned lower seeding, for what reason?

This logic is incomprehensible and stupid beyond reproach, this tournament will have a regular Double Elimination round and matches will be determined by wins/losses, I dont think I, or any of us really, give a shit what you have to say about it.

If these tenants that have existed for the past 6+ years are not reinstated, I am taking over running your "tournament", and I don't think a single person will oppose.

Go fuck yourself, and stop wasting our precious time with your inane and idiotic schemes. Theres a reason people sign on to play Myth every summer for MWC, and it isn't for you to create an entirely new rule system DURING THE TOURNAMENT based around apparently, your god damn whim.

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby adrenaline » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:38 pm

Sure as hell not gonna read this entire thread, but am I to understand that ITNH and TWF are relegated to the bottom bracket straight outta the QR? Because that would be utter nonsense.

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby Giant Killer General » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:46 pm

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why I knew not to bother participating in paris tournaments ever again. Yall have fun now :).

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby Zak » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:14 pm

I am ready to make mwc great again. Who supports my bid as TO?

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby wwo » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:10 am

Wasn't it agreed upon, during the Aki/Liger mwc host debacle years ago, that MWC should be as traditional and familiar as possible? Mind you, this was already well into the decline (09?), so it's not like the excuse of "well, hardly anyone plays now so let's spice it up" holds any weight. TWS, or some post-mwc 2-team, was determined to be the preferred testing ground of new scoring systems.

This is just bizarre, even from paris.

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby par73 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:03 pm

adrenaline wrote:Sure as hell not gonna read this entire thread, but am I to understand that ITNH and TWF are relegated to the bottom bracket straight outta the QR? Because that would be utter nonsense.


Lol no but others seems to think this to be true so let's see how many more myth care posts we can get out of them

I simply stated another tournament structure I was thinking about prior to finalizing rules before the start of QR1 about changing DE, which would knock have knocked a week off MWC and have provided for more competitive matches from QR1 to DE1.

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby par73 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:16 pm

par73 wrote:Before deciding on what to do in MWC I wanted to make a change to the DE format, but in light of changing to a triple elimination formation format for TWS I decided against it. You 'bois' get butthurt enough about having to rematch your opponents on the same map, gametype and time limit ffs :)

The idea was that there would be two pools of 4 teams to play in best of 5's for QRs, (or one pool of 8 teams playing best of 3's), and website function would support the feature for scheduling flexibility to meet with 7 opponents across 3 weeks for best of 3's (and obviously for the simple one per week, four per pool). The idea is based off how Valve runs The International for their MWC of Dota 2.

With two pools of four:
    Top two teams in each group advance to upper bracket of the DE, bottom two teams in each group advance to lower bracket of the DE.
With one pool of eight:
    Top four teams in each group advance to upper bracket of the DE, bottom four teams to the lower bracket

Here's an example:
Image
This essentially means QR performance can directly provide a team's first elimination in the top bracket, and helps the myth marathon that is Myth World Cup end in a timely manner.
Anyone who enjoys discussion on tournament format, I'd like to hear your thoughts below.


limp wrote:The final nail in the coffin was his most recent thread explaining that he was likely going to modify the entire rules of the Qualifying Round after the majority of it had already taken place. This rule would punish teams that were already losing teams, kicking them to the bottom bracket to begin the Double Elimination phase. This is beyond reproach and seems to either be based off of the fact that he either a. doesn't want to face TWF or INTH so early in the DE, or b. he is an idiot. Either way, the jury is in, and I am here to see to it that our beloved MWC doesn't reach a pinnacle of shitstorm we have never seen before in a tournament.


I'm still Lolling :lol:

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Re: MWC16 News Post #1: Looking forward to QR3 and DE

Postby Giant Killer General » Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:07 am

par73 wrote:I'm still Lolling :lol:


LOL, me too. Everyone read your post and reached the same conclusion of what it meant. Then you try to backtrack now to try and say it means something completely different because it was so astronomically stupid otherwise. Yet you also can't be specific about what exactly this other interpretation was that you were trying to convey. So you are either lying or can't communicate in writing for shit, but still incompetent in either scenario regardless. LOL, so good :).


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