EURO vs USA all time greats™

Who could filled a better all time great roster?

 
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Asmodian
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EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Asmodian » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:53 am

My criteria for choosing the best 7 was tournament success, In-game awareness and success over a long period of time. I know there will probably be some controversy over some of the picks, especially the 7th spot for the EU & USA team. There was a handful of players that could have been chosen for those spots.


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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby wwo » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:35 am

you made a graphic for this.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Asmodian » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:52 am

took like 2 minutes on word. Eat a dick wwo!

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby tirri » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:10 am

those lists are a complete travesty

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Asmodian » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:36 am

The 2nd greatest myth strategist doesn't judge talent wrong very often. There may be minor errors, but it's pretty much right. If it's a travesty then what would your list top 7 of USA x EU be?

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby dac » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:54 pm

Cu belongs on the list above hit, despite his 1 ball personality.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby adrenaline » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:38 pm

I'll forgive you for leaving me off this list since I'm Canadian. And Limp has been nothing but a mascot for any team he's played for since like 2006... sure he has the 'tournament' success, but he's rode the coattails of good teams for years without actually being a good player, himself. I mean, he talks a big game, but anyone can do that. Awareness doesn't mean shit if you don't have the clicking skills to do something about it. And just to illustrate how delusional Limp really is:

Capture4.JPG

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Giant Killer General » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:10 pm

The euros can "fill" a much better roster on paper as they have way more depth, so technically they would be the correct choice for your poll question. The talent on the U.S side starts tapering off after our top 5, while euros talent would stay strong probably until around their top 10.

That being said, the U.S. team would still beat them in a hypothetical 2t match up.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Asmodian » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:25 pm

Cruniac might actually be worthy of a spot on the USA team. I'm not exactly sure though, the last two spots on USA were a little difficult. The last spot on EU could have been a number of names including: Jushius, Conan, Soulblighter, Fire, Dantski (tournament success sort of eliminates him) RP? (I don't consider his reign as a top player long enough)

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Cutard » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:46 pm

dac wrote:Cu belongs on the list above hit, despite his 1 ball personality.


;)

Limp the mascot saved NC from being eliminated in 2010, the last tournament you won, Adren. Perhaps you forgot?

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby adrenaline » Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:10 pm

cool, he's done one thing right in the last 10 years. credit where credit is due.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Giant Killer General » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:04 pm

I just want to point out that the closest thing to this hypothetical match-up probably happened in the mwc 2011 DE3 match between Bullz and NP, where 7 of the players on these 2 all-time rosters played against each other. It was 4 all-time euros on NP (tirri, rab, cw, and gekko) versus 3 all-time americans on Bullz (Kirk, Ghengis, and I). It also featured the 2 primary captains for each respective team, Rabican and I.

It was a very hard-fought match, but the Bullz (i.e. the americans) won 4-1 (and very nearly 5-0).

Also it was another american team (NC) with shai, limp, and EW that made it to the finals with the Bullz that year (i.e. all of the euros were eliminated first)

Just to give some evidence supporting what the result of this hypothetical match-up would be.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Zak » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:02 pm

Beating NP in 2011 is impressive, but not nearly as impressive as beating them in say 2001 - 2006. Their care significantly decreased after 2007 and by 2011 were still good but not really in their primes.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Giant Killer General » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:17 pm

Of course that would require one to think that myth skill peaked in 2001 - 2006, or that care is significantly correlated with skill. And everyone already knows which side they take in that argument by now.

In any case, I was just pointing out the closest solid evidence that there is out there.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Asmodian » Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:34 pm

http://forum.gateofstorms.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39

Zak, refer to the 'm2sbr gang' oh how Grim got it so right 8 years ago.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Zak » Fri Jul 24, 2015 3:03 am

Myth skills peaking aside, the rosters for NP in 2011 and 2006 were slightly different. I imagine Rab was less drunk for those matches as well.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby grim » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:18 pm

The real "all time greats" was probably Np vs BME in Mwc04 and NP vs BME in Mwc06. Both were basically euro vs euro.

The closest thing to Euro vs America (counting Canada as America here, as the apparently Europe counts as one country as well when it's really just Finland we're talking about here) were the MWC07 finals with ThunderCox vs Name changers. Stuff happening in this decadent decade hardly counts for anything, really.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Asmodian » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:53 pm

That's so far from true, but I understand you got that Ratking syndrome where you rate everyone 10x higher that you like or that helps you rate those players higher. BME had some good individual players, but they were far from a great team. They had that impressive 04 win and then got upset 2 mwcs in a row. You don't get upset 2 years in a row in your prime to non contenders if you're great.

I listed all the top Np players, no other NP player gets close to that list(maybe fire), so how would you consider that an all-time great roster when being able to choose from the whole player base?

You're starting to sound like flatline grim, choosing what decades of myth matter now.

Image

This graph still holds true. It might be starting to flatline now just due to the lack of top competition, but there is no way that it started to flatline until at least after 2012.

Top strategy and tactics didn't even get defined until 2011 with the bullz who really stepped the whole captaining/strating game up to another level so to completely ignore them and all the better polished strategies being used there after would be very ignorant. (If that graph was to be redone I would do another spike from 2010-2011 because that's how much better top strategies got)


Side Note: I probably messed up on the American list at the bottom. Cruniac and Cu are probably deserving of a spot and Dwarf as well if I were to include Canadians on it.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby adrenaline » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:09 pm

CRUNIAC? You have got to be joking.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Cutard » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:36 pm

BME was really good in 04, complete shit in 06. They went 5 maps with us in 06 and we were horrid. I'm of course trying to downplay as much as possible grim's single moment of glory that he has with Myth.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Giant Killer General » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:53 am

BME wasn't really that good any year, hence why they only made it to 1 finals. Their entire team was a fairly one-dimensional BC team that lacked the same level of intelligence and coordination that the truly great dynasty teams had. Their 6-1 win in the mwc04 finals seems like an impressive score at first glance, until you realize that rab and cw didn't play in 4 games, and red phoenix didn't play in 3 games of the 7 game series. And without them that NP roster starts looking super shitty leaving them with gekko/tirri as their only saving grace (let's keep it real here, xel, dante, jushius, zaramis, naelot, creme, fire, and sb were all mediocre). Except they didn't even have tirri entirely because tirri capped the last 4 games when rab left. Need I say more? That is pretty much the worst possible role for him as it not only handicaps tirri from playing but it also handicaps his whole team with tirri's terrible capping. Not to suggest that NP would have won that match otherwise, but it probably would have been closer with their roster at full strength and with rab capping the whole match.

Even given that weakened NP team, when you watch the films BME doesn't look that impressive either, because...you know...it was myth in 2004. Did you see how tight everyone's archer formations were back then? My god, I could probably hit 3 archers with a single pus. Not to mention the mediocre trowing, trades, and strats.

Also if we want to not count some years then lets also not count mwc06 which was an embarrassing mismatch of NP vs a super shitty tcox team. Hardly the pinnacle of mwc competition in that finals.

But wait, maybe some might suggest that the mwc07 np/tcox team was the best euro team. Surely that was their best team ever since that was the year they first did the NP/tcox merger taking the best players from both rosters and combining them to form an uber mega-stacked team, right?

Except NC still went 4-4 in the grand finals against that NP/tcox roster in the mwc07 finals. And that NC roster was pretty inferior too playing guys like ludde, nineball, and jushius (sorry but he was horrible). Hardly a convincing win, only winning via sudden death (again, still a tied end-result of 4-4). And did I mention that this was against a vastly inferior NC roster?

So even just taking teams only from the last decade, I would then just take the mwc09 NC team over the euros then. We went 6-2 in the finals vs an NP/tcox hybrid, and we had 4 all-star players. That team would have done even better too with me doing all of the strats and ska capping them for me, which we did do on a few occasions and raped every game that we did.

Take the mwc09 NC roster which was much better, and you can pretty easily figure out what the result would have been against the mwc07 np/tcox team. Then add in bullz from mwc11 who manhandled strong rosters from both NP (4-1) and NC (6-1 in the finals) and it becomes even more clear that the best american teams would handily defeat any euro team from any year.

I agree it is interesting to note the difference in these 2 distinct eras though. Mwc07 was the key year of transition. There was the era of pre-mwc07, and the era of post-mwc07. The primary difference between these two eras is the depths of the team rosters. This was probably primarily driven by a whole bunch of new perennial 4-5 ballers that came into being. These players included most of the american all-stars listed here, a lot of people that were a part of the budding NC dynasty at some point, and some other euro players as well. This was probably caused by some mythers still coming of age, just getting broadband internet, or completing their transition away from tfl, etc. For any number of reasons, the skill-level of the competition peaked there due to the massive depth of the team rosters with all this new talent.

Consider all of the top players that did not show up on top mwc teams until later years: myself, ghengis, kirk, karma, cu, shaister, east wind, paris, dantski, grim, arzenic, cave, absolut, monty, etc. Just because earlier top players stopped winning mwc does not mean that was the exact point that myth competition started to decline. The competition just got hotter with more talent added to the mix, which is reflected in the fact that the top 3 mwc dynasties in myth history were born between mwc06 and mwc11.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby grim » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:20 am

@Asmo: think of something else to say rather than just quote my articles all the time.

@Cu: Actually my moments of glory outside mwc06 were in mwc05 and Par's shifty TWS tournaments.

We're all just basically throwing out our opinions on this matter, as this match is never gonna happen. Everyone here knows what opinions are like.


Giant Killer General wrote:BME wasn't really that good any year, hence why they only made it to 1 finals. Their entire team was a fairly one-dimensional BC team that lacked the same level of intelligence and coordination that the truly great dynasty teams had. Their 6-1 win in the mwc04 finals seems like an impressive score at first glance, until you realize that rab and cw didn't play in 4 games, and red phoenix didn't play in 3 games of the 7 game series. And without them that NP roster starts looking super shitty leaving them with gekko/tirri as their only saving grace (let's keep it real here, xel, dante, jushius, zaramis, naelot, creme, fire, and sb were all mediocre). Except they didn't even have tirri entirely because tirri capped the last 4 games when rab left. Need I say more? That is pretty much the worst possible role for him as it not only handicaps tirri from playing but it also handicaps his whole team with tirri's terrible capping. Not to suggest that NP would have won that match otherwise, but it probably would have been closer with their roster at full strength and with rab capping the whole match.

Even given that weakened NP team, when you watch the films BME doesn't look that impressive either, because...you know...it was myth in 2004. Did you see how tight everyone's archer formations were back then? My god, I could probably hit 3 archers with a single pus. Not to mention the mediocre trowing, trades, and strats.


BME won the tournament before that as well. In Mwc04 they had no competition. After 04 they sorta disappeared so that's why they didn't become a "dynasty".

In MWC04 they had both the talent and the fervor to win, the same way bulls had the talent and fervor to win in 11. Without the fervor, care and committment you're not going to win. Simply just putting a bunch of players in the same team, showing up to play and see how it goes doesn't do the same thing. This matters a lot and I'm sure you agree with that.

Also if we want to not count some years then lets also not count mwc06 which was an embarrassing mismatch of NP vs a super shitty tcox team. Hardly the pinnacle of mwc competition in that finals.


The real showdown wasn't the finals. The top bracket became slightly skewed due to NP being d0nged to bottom bracket thanks to midsummer and people not showing up that week. Np vs BME and NP vs BIA however were much better games than the finals. In MWC06 the NP roster was the strongest it's ever been and the team had both the talent/desire and fervor to win. Beating BME was a real motivation, since lets face it, they were complete douchebags to everyone. Our roster was also playing actively that summer.

But wait, maybe some might suggest that the mwc07 np/tcox team was the best euro team. Surely that was their best team ever since that was the year they first did the NP/tcox merger taking the best players from both rosters and combining them to form an uber mega-stacked team, right?

Except NC still went 4-4 in the grand finals against that NP/tcox roster in the mwc07 finals. And that NC roster was pretty inferior too playing guys like ludde, nineball, and jushius (sorry but he was horrible). Hardly a convincing win, only winning via sudden death (again, still a tied end-result of 4-4). And did I mention that this was against a vastly inferior NC roster?


In MWC07 NP/COX had a stacked rosters, but we were just winging it the entire tournament long. Even in the finals. There were 0 preparation for anything. People just showed up to play. In the finals we were also plagued by large and uneven roster. Cave didn't play any games since he ragequit and Rabican was highly intoxicated, so he mostly sat out too. We didn't play a single game with our "top 7" or whatever. The NC team had the motivation and care to beat us while were ill prepared. We still won. This match is however the closest thing to Euro vs America all time greats.

So even just taking teams only from the last decade, I would then just take the mwc09 NC team over the euros then. We went 6-2 in the finals vs an NP/tcox hybrid, and we had 4 all-star players. That team would have done even better too with me doing all of the strats and ska capping them for me, which we did do on a few occasions and raped every game that we did.

Take the mwc09 NC roster which was much better, and you can pretty easily figure out what the result would have been against the mwc07 np/tcox team. Then add in bullz from mwc11 who manhandled strong rosters from both NP (4-1) and NC (6-1 in the finals) and it becomes even more clear that the best american teams would handily defeat any euro team from any year.


In MWC08 our roster was worse than in MWC07 and we were just winging it whole tournament long. In MWC09 our roster was slightly better than in MWC09... buuut we were winging it even more in MWC09 and we were plagued by inactivity, lack of care and people not showing up for games whole tournament long. For the finals we had 0 preparation and also no clue who was even going to show up. Rabican was highly intoxicated (again). Our strats were made up by the captain during planning time and Cw didn't really have any time to even explain what his whackass plans were. Zer was also complaining about everything the whole match long and basically just making the atmosphere toxic in the team. We were in complete disorray. It was a complete mess.

The NC roster was in it's strongest form, was well prepared and had the desire to win. One could compare it to MWC07 finals I suppose, but it's not really remotely the same. This was not a match up between two well prepared teams hellbent to win.

As for this decade, the MWC11 NP was just a joke. It was the weakest NP roster ever signed up and it was only signed up as a joke to begin with. People just started showing up, but it was still a weaker roster than before. Pretty sure they never prepared for anything either, just like they didn't before. Even Happy face beat Np in that tournament (and then never showed up with full roster afterwards). Your whateveritwascalledteam in mwc12k vs My team would have been a better comparison, but the same thing applies to that team as well as the previous NPcox teams. No preparation, fervor or motivation to win. Just showing up to play and wing it. Your team lost to use before the finals when your situation was the same. After that you went on full GKG care/ragemode.

I agree it is interesting to note the difference in these 2 distinct eras though. Mwc07 was the key year of transition. There was the era of pre-mwc07, and the era of post-mwc07. The primary difference between these two eras is the depths of the team rosters. This was probably primarily driven by a whole bunch of new perennial 4-5 ballers that came into being. These players included most of the american all-stars listed here, a lot of people that were a part of the budding NC dynasty at some point, and some other euro players as well. This was probably caused by some mythers still coming of age, just getting broadband internet, or completing their transition away from tfl, etc. For any number of reasons, the skill-level of the competition peaked there due to the massive depth of the team rosters with all this new talent.[/qupte]

Post MWC06 we've had less teams in tournaments and teams started merging, so this created more team stacking. People were however already complaining in MWC06 that the NP roster was too stacked, when it was just full of finns.


Consider all of the top players that did not show up on top mwc teams until later years: myself, ghengis, kirk, karma, cu, shaister, east wind, paris, dantski, grim, arzenic, cave, absolut, monty, etc. Just because earlier top players stopped winning mwc does not mean that was the exact point that myth competition started to decline. The competition just got hotter with more talent added to the mix, which is reflected in the fact that the top 3 mwc dynasties in myth history were born between mwc06 and mwc11.


Depends on what you mean with "later years". The newlyfound Tcox team (as in me, cave, storm, arz, ram etc) was created in 2001 and we placed 3rd in the post MWC2001 tournament instantly. After that we were always one of the top teams, but didn't reach finals untill 2004. You gotta remember that you left to join the army (in 2003?) and therefore missed most of this.

But here's in interesting tidbit lost in history, do you remember that actually played with us in the F.U.C.K tournament in 2001? We placed 3rd in it. You were in our team as was Ska and Atombomb. You were captained by Ska in one game back then too! Don't think you showed up for more than two matches, though.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby switch » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:23 am

Oh Jesus, please let this thread devolve into a flame war between grim "should have published complete history of myth in 2014" and "bulllz is my answer for everything" gkg. I direct both of you to my super bowl half time statement of 2013, incidently in grims epic thread about diminishing marginal returns (best article he ever wrote- defeating gkg in article game - a game gkg does not play other than in terms of doctrinal manuals).
linky

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby grim » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:55 am

And as tldr; we're talking about a hypothetical match of myth fantasy league that has never happened and will never happen. There's games from the past we can use, but they all have their flaws for this argument. This decade doesn't count for this discussion as there hasn't been a comparable euro team assembled. The np 11 team is a horrid example.

If we start talking about which era had the best players again, I wrote an article about that 5 years ago.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Asmodian » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:26 am

@Asmo: think of something else to say rather than just quote my articles all the time.

You rustled your own jimmies?


In MWC07 NP/COX had a stacked rosters, but we were just winging it the entire tournament long. Even in the finals. There were 0 preparation for anything. People just showed up to play. In the finals we were also plagued by large and uneven roster. Cave didn't play any games since he ragequit and Rabican was highly intoxicated, so he mostly sat out too. We didn't play a single game with our "top 7" or whatever. The NC team had the motivation and care to beat us while were ill prepared. We still won. This match is however the closest thing to Euro vs America all time greats.

That NC team was solid don't get me wrong, but trying to use that team as the "closest thing to Euro vs American all time greats" just come on man! 09 NC, Bullz & Sp are all vastly better than an 07 NC and a better comparison for Euros vs Americans as well.

2012 is probably the best example of Euro vs American greats. When the Americans had Gkg, Ghengis & EW, while the Euros had Rabican,cw,Tirri,Arzenic,gekko & Dantski who is just as good as Cave. How did you stack a roster so hard and lose?

Honestly if you're playing a couple times a week, which most of you were doing those years then rust is almost a non factor. If you are showing to matches throw that 'care' excuse out the window. You don't show for matches to intentionally lose, so obviously you are trying.

Myth is not about clicking fast, it is more of a mental game which is why rust is a very limited factor in this game. Now that Arz has been playing with smarter players in recent years (gkg,ew and I) his performances have been the best they have ever been even though he only plays myth the occasional weekend.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby East Wind tmnt » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:28 pm

Oh g - I do remember Zer being a chimp in '09. Basically sui'd barb dark.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby shadow » Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:48 pm

EURO vs USA all time greats ? USA, no doubt.
How is it even a question ?

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Giant Killer General » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:08 pm

Why are we trying to pretend BME left after mwc04? Did they not play in mwc06 with a very similar roster? The films tell me yes. They stuck around for a few years.

Okay so let's look at this pattern here. In MWC04 - NP didn't care, as shown by rab and cw leaving before the match is even over.
MWC07 - NP/tcox didnt care then either, and as well as every year after that apparently.

So when did they ever care? It must have only been mwc01 and mwc06, conveniently the two mwc's they won, right?

Well I don't think even you grim would argue that mwc01 was any pinnacle of myth skill. And MWC06 had pretty shitty competition in comparison to almost every mwc from 2007 to 2012 (BME and tcox both sucked that year). Let's say the real mwc06 finals was NP vs BIA (another dynasty team that had earlier success then stopped winning and died in the transition of eras). That match was super close 3-2, and was scored 30-29. Hardly a convincing win from the supposed best, most caring NP team ever. And this is against BIA we are talking about here...is anyone really going to try to argue that they were better than the NC or bullz dynasties?

NP didn't prepare as much when they didn't care. But the real question is, did they ever prepare all that much really? Well no, because no one knew how to prepare very well back then. There were no fancy strategies with creative tactics, or little nuanced (legal) map exploits. At least not until NC came along and started to push it to another level which would eventually manifest itself into things like satchel rain on lichen, soulless on impassable terrain flag D, etc.

I would then later take it to another level developing my own formula of team organization. There was even better, more creative strats, with more detail, and having the entire team's participation in the preparation for key matches every year as well. It allowed a process of team evolution where the team's synergy would continue to grow as the tournament progressed, and team performance would peak at the perfect time in the finals.

The most caring of teams in earlier years never did this, because they didn't think of it. Or even if you want to believe that they did think of it, then they just didn't care to do it (even though this is supposed to be when they were at maximum care!). Call it what you will, but either the care peaked later or the strategic abilities did, depending how you want to call it.

And because earlier teams didn't really ever prep all that well anyway, the difference between them prepping and just "showing up and play" is pretty small. Not to mention about half of all map/games in mwc are just one-dimensional BC fights which require basically little or no prep-work anyway (just a decent working knowledge of strategy to get the right trade at the beginning). So half of those games the care and prep-work don't even matter.

So this whole care argument basically revolves around pre-match preparation for strategies and team organization. I agree they are correlated, but it also has nothing to do with in-game playing ability. You might only show up and play, but you still play. Lack of activity and perceived rust don't matter when you are at least showing up to matches nearly every week. That is all it takes to get into top form. Too much activity can actually start to hurt performance.

Grim wrote:This group is also the master of post excuses. By "the master" of excuses I mean that they have a lot of them. Too bad they all just suck and usually mean nothing. You know, the good old "I didn't care", "there's not enough teams in this tournament", "I'm rusty" and "my skills peaked in 2001" excuses (now, for the last time: You can wear "rust" off by playing for a week or two. If you aren't good now you just aren't good. Face it.)


Take any NP roster from any year, inject them with maximum-level care and you aren't going to see much of a difference (if any) in their level of preparation, quality of strategies, or performance in general. There was nothing wrong with the NP rosters from any of those years. You watch the films and they played as well as they did from any year. You see their strategies and they look the same as what they would have done any other year. You can see them play on the very obvious map/games that don't require any fancy strategy or prep work and still see their BC abilities which remain unchanged. There is not a massive difference in the films in any way.

Rabican wasn't sober? He was never sober. NP didn't care? They never cared. NP didn't prepare? They never prepared all that well anyway. Their strategies weren't good? Their strategies were never good. They weren't consistent? They never were consistent. Can anyone point to films between the two eras and find glaring differences or discrepancies in any of these? I don't think so. These weren't the exceptions to the rule, these were the things that were always part of who they were. Like a lot of players, maybe they never reached their full potential, but that's also just another way of saying were never all that great anyway.

NP had plenty of supposed "care" years, but nothing all that great to show for it. What happened in mwc03, 04, and 05? Kind of a glaring gap in NP's (and myth's) supposedly biggest care years, no? Bia won 03, and was also on the cusp of winning 05 (if it was played), and 04 was the only year BME won. But we still want to say that it was NP and BME that were the 2 best teams of all time, and the "all-star" players were all euro? The bias is overwhelming. If you want to pick 2001-2006 as the arbitrary "care years" (because clearly NP's care level was a perfect indicator of care levels for the entire myth community and the only ones whose care ever mattered) then at least be consistent. Following that logic you would have to put BIA front and center into the discussion as well. But we don't, I wonder why? Hrm...

----

To clarify, we lost a meaningless QR match in mwc12. I have lost a QR match in nearly every mwc I have won since then. I don't win tournaments because I have the best team at the start of the tournament, I win them because I have the best team at the end of the tournament. I agree my care vastly improves my teams, but that is because I know what to do with that extra time in preparation. The point of disagreement here is that I don't think care mattered all that much for NP/tcox players because even given that extra prep-time they didn't know how to prepare very well anyway. There's no difference in their strategies from earlier years to later years (and again, it certainly doesn't affect BC abilities).

There was nothing wrong with the mwc11 NP roster. The reason you are remembering it that way is because you played them when they were undermanned 5v6 and they were missing gekko and cw in the match against happy face. Both of these things were not true in their match against the bullz. Watch the films, and they played quite well that match, it was much better than the finals against NC. Also its not like happy face was any slouch of a team either, they had a nicely stacked roster as well (dantski, grim, arz, karma, ducky). Which just goes to show you that MWC11 was a good year, certainly better than mwc06.

By your own definition (and I agree with it), mwc grand finals matches that featured two finalist teams (not just one) that both had great rosters, sky-high care levels, and were super well prepared, defined the qualities of pinnacle myth competition. MWC08 and MWC11 both fit this description, and when looking back at it, how many earlier mwc finals really ever fit this description as well? Let's say it was 2001, 2003, and 2006 then. Except 2001 was so early we both know (and there is good consensus for this) that that was pretty far from any kind of peak-level of skill for the community. Its a big stretch for 2006 too since that was only for the NP vs BIA match (not the actual grand finals), and Bia lost to that same shitty tcox team earlier in the tourney, so the skill level is questionable there too. By your own admission, mwc07 and mwc09 did not fall into this category (np/tcox didn't care), and I would argue that mwc04 did not fall into this category either when 3 of NP's best players (including their captain) did not play in half of the games. The MWC05 finals of course were never played. So 2 of the most competitive mwc finals, which is about half of all of the competitive mwc finals that fit our descritpion, happened in the later era I described between 2008 and 2011.

By the way, how the hell could NP have cared so much and been so active in mwc06, but they still ended up getting swept in their first DE match in DE2 against a newb team because apparently they could only manage to show with 4 people out of their 16 player roster? MWC06 was their biggest care year? Or did they really just never care all that much anyway? Hrmm...I think I will go with the latter.

p.s. - Yes I remember playing for tcox, I thought it was later than 2001 though actually. I do not remember ska or atombomb that year though (and I never knew AB really)

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Pogue » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:45 pm

Reading this thread, I understand why GKG is leading my Billy Mitchell poll (not that I didn't already). Kinda sad really...

grim wrote:
GKG by grim.


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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Chohan » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:36 pm

grim wrote:And as tldr; we're talking about a hypothetical match of myth fantasy league that has never happened and will never happen. There's games from the past we can use, but they all have their flaws for this argument. This decade doesn't count for this discussion as there hasn't been a comparable euro team assembled. The np 11 team is a horrid example.

If we start talking about which era had the best players again, I wrote an article about that 5 years ago.


Didn't "my team" have Tirri, gekko, arzenic, dantski, karma, cw, grim, rabican, bone, kryptos and dante?

grim ~those all-stars weren't all-stars that year y'see because, I don't want them to be.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Lizard King » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:56 pm

Always cracks me up when people sit around and discuss/dissect/debate the glory eras of myth they weren't even around for.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Giant Killer General » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:03 am

Also I just want to point out another thing about the whole care / lack of preparation argument. This is certainly an important piece of it, but like 90% of it can all be done by a single person, whoever the captain / strategist is. It actually doesn't matter if it is a show-and-play only team that has very little care, or if it is a hyper-active, hyper-caring team. Every team still needs this key strategist role regardless for the team to be able to achieve the next-level of performance. You have to combine the BC talent with the great strategy. You can't just have one or the other, you need both. As long as this role was fulfilled, the team would be relatively unaffected regardless of care and activity. They get most of the benefit just from the good strategies and a good captain that knows what they are doing for in-game adjustments. So the lack of preparation / care on the part of NP/tcox every single year could have been remedied by rabican or any single person on the team that could have stepped up to captain and do strats. Of course this has almost never happened, and the reason for this is because there are so few people that are actually capable of this. Even if they cared to do so, they lacked the intelligence and ability to do it.

This is important to consider because this capability only started forming within just a handful of players that didn't gain prominence until the later era. This is also why I said the euros have more depth in their roster BC-wise amongst all-time top players, but americans would still win any hypothetical 2t matchup because we have all of the capping / strategy talent. Rabican's/NP's strats were ahead of their time in 2001 so they get props for that, but that lead was short-lived and they did not continue to evolve. Since BME and NP/tcox never had the best capping/strategy talent, they could never be the greatest teams.

We wonder why a mega-stacked NP/tcox team tied against a comparatively lackluster NC teams in mwc07. Or why Ducky captained two solid team rosters to embarrassing finals performances in mwc10 and mwc12. As crun pointed out, mwc12's myteam had a fantastic roster. There was nothing all that bad about their BC abilities, these were all the same great players from recent years. However the strategies were just horrendous (god knows why anyone let Ducky captain a second mwc in 2012 after I warned everyone what a terrible strategist he was in 2011). If they just had this key strategist / organizing role fulfilled, most all of the ills plaguing these teams would have been cured and their performance would have been drastically improved. When you look at the whole history of mwc matches through this lens of weighing the massive role that the captain/strategist plays, it starts to make a whole hell of a lot of sense why the results ended up the way they did.

In conclusion, it wasn't the care or preparation of the whole team that ever mattered so much after all, it was only the care and preparation of the captain / strategist / team organizer that mattered. I would be hard-pressed to find a key mwc match of similarly talented rosters where the match result didn't reflect near perfectly the disparity in the quality of the capping/strategy for each team.

It is all about the leadership of the team (which empirically we can draw parallels to real life as well to know this truth).

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Lord---Scary Owl » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:22 am

Is this care bear post fun land?
Who cares who would win, you all voted.
No need to spend hours of your time re-qouting past MWC stats, player lists, and wins.
Who even wants to read a 300 page paper on Myth History.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby wwo » Sat Aug 01, 2015 5:07 am

Gold, Jerry.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby BIG KROK V8 SS » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:09 pm

tirri wrote:those lists are a complete travesty


Yeah I don't know how you are considered a top player either.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Lizard King » Sat Aug 08, 2015 6:09 am

Lord---Scary Owl wrote:Is this care bear post fun land?
Who cares who would win, you all voted.
No need to spend hours of your time re-qouting past MWC stats, player lists, and wins.
Who even wants to read a 300 page paper on Myth History.


This is the "we have nothing left" thread.

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Lord---Scary Owl » Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:05 pm

Lizard King wrote:
Lord---Scary Owl wrote:Is this care bear post fun land?
Who cares who would win, you all voted.
No need to spend hours of your time re-qouting past MWC stats, player lists, and wins.
Who even wants to read a 300 page paper on Myth History.


This is the "we have nothing left" thread.


LOL

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Re: EURO vs USA all time greats™

Postby Lord---Scary Owl » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:02 pm

Asmodian wrote:1 more of signups. Games start NOT tomorrow, but the following Sunday.

If there is anyone that is wanting to be team organizer(drafter) then let me know and I'll see what I can do.

bash bros, samuel, paris and rawr where you at? This should be some fun myth.

did you mean to post this in the other thread?


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